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  #21  
Old 06-20-2012, 06:38 PM
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I thought the fall of Manetheren was the trigger that turned the tide of the Trolloc Wars.
Not really. All the fall of Manetheren accomplished was to spawn gleeman's tales, get an Amyrlin in deep trouble, and kill the Trollocs that killed Manetheren (although even then, that was Eldrene and not Aemon that did it -- all he did was fight on against incredible odds until he died, then she won the battle in a suicide attack). The Trolloc Wars didn't end until Ishamael's 40 years ran out and a new Amyrlin started a new offensive to drive back the Shadow. There was plenty of rampaging after Manetheren fell.

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Anyway, he's one of the only other characters where we have good hints he is a specific person reborn with (more importantly for the argument that he could be a Hero) a pattern of attributes/characteristics that are proto-legendary.
I'm not disagreeing that there are hints that Mat could be Aemon reborn. I'm just arguing that that's not really evidence that he could be a Hero, since we have no real evidence that Aemon was either. Everyone is a "specific person reborn", we just don't know the specifics. If you're thinking about the Con quote about how Rand was special because he was a specific person reborn, that answer was more that he was special because there were prophecies about said specific person being reborn. Aemon didn't really do anything that could be considered "Pattern stabilizing" that we know of -- he did what we'd expect from any non-Darkfriend born into his position. He was simply a rather brave king that ruled over the land he inherited, had an elite fighting force, and eventually died with his troops.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2012, 08:05 PM
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IIRC it is mentioned in one of the latest books that Grady's baby boy is pretty ugly (I don't have my books near at hand to check at the mo). I thought that was a bit gratuitous and therefore might be a hint about Gaidal Cain's current whereabouts.
What RJ said about Olver applies to Jr. Grady -- he's too old. We met Jr. Grady before Gaidal Cain was spun out; Gaidal is "a babe in arms" if he's even been born already.
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  #23  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
SauceyBlueConfetti,

The quote I am thinking about was from the late 90s, directly from RJ, It was after PoD and before WH in an interview.

anenu,
I disagree as to the wheel's primary purpose. Nor do I believe the dragon's role is limited to confronting the dark one in each age he is born into. Hawkwing clearly states they have fought against each other more often than with each other, and he is not even spun out at this current time. I do not think he was merely talking about being called when the horn is sounded... point is, there are other ages and confronting the Dark One is not the catalyst for each age. The first age ended when Tamylin learned to channel, ushering in the 2nd age AOL... that age didnt end until the bore got drilled, 3rd age wont end till that bore is sealed... who knows why the 4th 5th 6th or 7th ages end. I am guessing one of those ages is a version of our modern day science>magic age... again back to the point, not every age is marked with a conflict with the shadow. Thus, the wheel has more purpose than spinning the dragon out to fight the shadow.

I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.

It has been said somewhere on this site before that the DO always breaks free in the 3rd and 7th age and as such the dragon is always there to meet him. Also your statement that Hawkwing says he has fought against and alongside Rand is only more evidence that different heroes are called out during each battle with the DO and that they do not fulfill the exact same purpose each time so its not the same people reborn each time.

Your claim that the wheel does not revolve around the battles between Rand and the DO also makes no sense as it has been clearly stated that everything since the bore was sealed has been aimed at having Rand born exactly at the right place and time. It caused Lew Therin to make a giant mountain to mark his grave so that Rand could have a place to be born, it had some random tribesmen give water to the Aiel so that they would give a right of passage and a sapling of the tree of life so it could be cut down and even Hawkwing only existed to unite the lands so that he could send an army to conquer Seanchan and they could invade again in Rand's life. Literally everything it has done was to prepare for this battle and we can assume that the next ages will be to prepare for the next reincarnation of the dragon and that the ages before Lews Therin was to prepare for him Rand or the Dragon is the primary and most important HoTH and the idea that the wheel would simply let his main generals and supporters be random stage hands is ridiculousness. Rhuarc and Weiramon are examples of random reborn souls, they are important but they do not play a key role in the battle against the DO and if they died they could be easily replaced.

Personally I am willing to bet that every person who was in the stables after the trolloc attack in the first book is a reborn hero all of them from Moiraine to Thom to Lan to Egwene.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:39 PM
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I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.
o.O wat?
lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy noob
It has been said somewhere on this site before that the DO always breaks free in the 3rd and 7th age and as such the dragon is always there to meet him. Also your statement that Hawkwing says he has fought against and alongside Rand is only more evidence that different heroes are called out during each battle with the DO and that they do not fulfill the exact same purpose each time so its not the same people reborn each time.
or its evidence that the dragon is spun out in every age, and some of those ages have absolutely nothing to do with the shadow...

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Originally Posted by crazy noob
Your claim that the wheel does not revolve around the battles between Rand and the DO also makes no sense bla bla bla....
I am sorry the quote i provided doesnt support your opinion.

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Originally Posted by crazy noob
Personally I am willing to bet that every person who was in the stables after the trolloc attack in the first book is a reborn hero all of them from Moiraine to Thom to Lan to Egwene.
People think we never landed on the moon and all kinds of batshit crazy things. *shrug*
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:23 PM
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Has Felix created an alt?
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  #26  
Old 06-20-2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
o.O wat?
lol



or its evidence that the dragon is spun out in every age, and some of those ages have absolutely nothing to do with the shadow...



I am sorry the quote i provided doesnt support your opinion.



People think we never landed on the moon and all kinds of batshit crazy things. *shrug*
Judging by your reactions to both my post and others I have seen around here I have decided you are either a troll or haven't actually read the books so I will be from now on ignoring anything you say until it seems you have decided to say things of merit.
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  #27  
Old 06-21-2012, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by anenu View Post
I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.
I think you need to get familiar with Terez' signature link and all of the information in the interview and Q&A database. In particular, RJ's assertion that the discovery of Channeling is what marked the beginning of the Second Age (aka the Age Of Legends.)

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Originally Posted by anenu View Post
It has been said somewhere on this site before that the DO always breaks free in the 3rd and 7th age and as such the dragon is always there to meet him.
Nowhere on THIS site that I ever saw. Again, Terez' hard work on the interview database caan be your friend; RJ said the Dragon Soul is reborn in other Ages but not necessarily in the role of 'Dragon.'

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Originally Posted by anenu View Post
Personally I am willing to bet that every person who was in the stables after the trolloc attack in the first book is a reborn hero all of them from Moiraine to Thom to Lan to Egwene.
What little evidence we have suggests that the band of Heroes known as 'tHotH' only numbers around 100 to 125 total. Given the long (15 to 30 years) lead time required for a Hero to be spun out and mature before the "Crisis of Balance' they are spun out to correct occurs, it is unlikely that a high percentage of the 25 to 30 Heroes missing from the roll call at Falme were spun out to deal with T'G. Some will have been spun out to deal with problems during Rand's childhood, some will have been spun out to deal with T'G, and the rest to deal with events after T'G -- The last group would include those like Gaidal Cain and Calian & Shivan who have been spun out since Falme who are newborn infants without any heroic stature yet in this incarnation.

T'G is a big deal -- possibly the biggest Event in an entire Turning -- but I'd guess that no more than 20% of Heroes currently incarnate are of an age to have been spun out to deal with T'G. The other 80% are either remnants of an earlier crisis (like Noal Charin/Jain Farstrider) or far too young to be of use to Rand.

Of the main characters, The Three Amigos, The
Supergirls, and Lan are pretty much the limit of active Heroes.
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  #28  
Old 06-21-2012, 01:29 PM
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I'm not disagreeing that there are hints that Mat could be Aemon reborn. I'm just arguing that that's not really evidence that he could be a Hero, since we have no real evidence that Aemon was either. Everyone is a "specific person reborn", we just don't know the specifics. If you're thinking about the Con quote about how Rand was special because he was a specific person reborn, that answer was more that he was special because there were prophecies about said specific person being reborn. Aemon didn't really do anything that could be considered "Pattern stabilizing" that we know of -- he did what we'd expect from any non-Darkfriend born into his position. He was simply a rather brave king that ruled over the land he inherited, had an elite fighting force, and eventually died with his troops.
I was thinking more about the pattern who he is. Mat is an archetype, what we know about Aemon suggests he had the same characteristics - the consistency is what suggests to me that he could be a Hero.

I'm also not sure that HOTH always do 'pattern stabilising' in the sense that you seem to imply, for example Birgitte's memories suggest she may not always have done so ( I'm thinking of her adventures in 'Finnland). We do know, however that heroes inspire stories ...
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  #29  
Old 06-21-2012, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SamJ View Post
I thought the fall of Manetheren was the trigger that turned the tide of the Trolloc Wars. Anyway, he's one of the only other characters where we have good hints he is a specific person reborn with (more importantly for the argument that he could be a Hero) a pattern of attributes/characteristics that are proto-legendary.
What turned the tide was the actions of Rashima Kerenmosa.
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  #30  
Old 06-21-2012, 02:22 PM
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I'm sorry but the first age was not the discovery of channeling it was the age after the breaking and lasted until the trolloc wars followed by the second age which ended with Hawkwing leading us to the 3rd age.
Nobody can be this stupid.....I'm betting its an Alt account or an outright troll.
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  #31  
Old 06-21-2012, 02:55 PM
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I've seen noobs make the assumption before, but it's the whole "I'm sorry but" thing...tsk tsk. You should know what you're talking about if you're going to use that kind of language.
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  #32  
Old 06-21-2012, 05:09 PM
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Successful troll is successful.

A search for the term "Second Age" does bring up some interesting results, however...
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  #33  
Old 06-21-2012, 05:25 PM
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Nobody can be this stupid.....I'm betting its an Alt account or an outright troll.
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I've seen noobs make the assumption before, but it's the whole "I'm sorry but" thing...tsk tsk. You should know what you're talking about if you're going to use that kind of language.
I understand his confusion, he is mistaking the 3rd age calendar systems for age spokes on the wheel, not understanding that just because there has been 3 major calendar systems in place since the breaking does not constitute a new age. (and several others that never caught on, like hawkwing's) Changing calendars doesnt change the age.... all of the calendar systems since the breaking have all been within the 3rd age. In the modern world we routinely use two calendar systems today, the gregorian and the julian (which is really a reformed roman calendar) Gregorian is more widely accepted, but the Julian tends to be used more in military and scientific purposes.

It also does not seem he has ever read the Big White Book either or any interview quotes.

EDIT:
think of it this way, id say our current age started with the death of christ, hense why we measure time AD and BC, we have changed calendar's multiple times since Zombiejesus came back to life, but it is still the same age, regardless of how we measure and keep track of time.
(others might want to think we have moved into a different age with the advent of modern technology, but does technology make society or does society make technology? either way you see the point im getting at, an age can encompass more than one calendar system)
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Last edited by Ieyasu; 06-21-2012 at 05:35 PM. Reason: fucking quote tags...
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  #34  
Old 06-21-2012, 06:10 PM
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I dont believe the Julian is used for anything other than historical discussions and even then we (It was my field of study) tend to preface a date by noting it as Old Style or Julian when we're talking...this came up more with Russia than most other dates as they didnt switch until their 1917 revolution.
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  #35  
Old 06-21-2012, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I dont believe the Julian is used for anything other than historical discussions and even then we (It was my field of study) tend to preface a date by noting it as Old Style or Julian when we're talking...this came up more with Russia than most other dates as they didnt switch until their 1917 revolution.
I used it every day in the military for my entire duration in the 90s, so I am speaking from first hand experience.

I know that it is still used to establish some religious ceremonies (like easter):

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki so take it for what its worth
The Julian calendar has been replaced by the Gregorian calendar in all countries which formerly used it as the civil calendar. Most Christian denominations have also replaced it with the Gregorian calendar as the basis for their liturgical calendars. However, most branches of the Orthodox Church still use the Julian calendar for calculating the dates of moveable feasts, including Easter (Pascha). Some Orthodox churches have adopted the Revised Julian calendar for the observance of fixed feasts, while other Orthodox churches retain the Julian calendar for all purposes.[1] The Julian calendar is still used by the Berber people of North Africa, and on Mount Athos.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:38 PM
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I was in the military myself and never once used it...out of curiosity, how/when did you?
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:56 PM
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I was in the military myself and never once used it...out of curiosity, how/when did you?
Acft maintenance records are computerized according to a "Julian Date" which is not the same thing as according to the "Julian Calender."
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:58 PM
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Acft maintenance records are computerized according to a "Julian Date" which is not the same thing as according to the "Julian Calender."
I wonder if that's the confusion then...I was army so I had never heard of that.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:43 PM
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I never used the Julian date in the Marine Corps either.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:09 PM
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I was an electrical engineer for the US Navy, and yes, all maintenance logs, requests for parts, gear, flight records, sat/nav etc were kept by julian date, which I assumed derived from the julian calendar. If they arent the same then i retract the statement, however, I feel the point I was making about an age encompassing multiple calendars remains valid.



EDIT: an Aviation electrical engineer to further support the aircraft comment hehehe... however the green sailors that worked with me also used it (for the devil dog here <3)

It might be limited to just aviation and just the navy/marine corp aviation at that, but it always fucked me up trying to keep track of two dates for the same day
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Last edited by Ieyasu; 06-21-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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