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  #21  
Old 10-20-2012, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Well, you could grandfather its usage in by only using the Sane ones.
Question is, were there any sane ones at that point, and as you say - if the person suddenly goes nuts due to the taint, they can only stop channeling when they're in control.

And of course there's this - binders were used on criminals. It's a great stretch to convince the few remaining sane ones to let them be bound away from the source like common criminals and have their lives cut in half, especially when they (everyone) probably didn't necessarily know yet that every male was doomed to go insane.

Quote:
The other possibility is that the Oath Rod only works on females...
Doesn't seem like it would be a very effective tool of law if it only worked on half the criminal population, and I seem to recall one of the Forsaken commenting on the oddity of the Aes Sedai using it to bind themselves like criminals, though probably for the same reason.
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2012, 05:06 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Question is, were there any sane ones at that point, and as you say - if the person suddenly goes nuts due to the taint, they can only stop channeling when they're in control.
If nothing else, they could have started with Logain. He still was fairly sane, and given a choice between swearing such an oath or being gentled, I'm not sure he would have opted for the latter.

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Originally Posted by instantdeath999 View Post
Is there any proof that Sammael was not killed by Rand's Ward, or at least subdued by it?
There is the fact that making such Wards do multiple things is basically impossible. Rand could make it work against Shadowspawn, or against human channelers, but not both. He picked the first, which meant that it had no effect on Sammael at all.
Actually, Sammael could not even detect it; the only reason why he knew about it was because of his spies.
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
If nothing else, they could have started with Logain. He still was fairly sane, and given a choice between swearing such an oath or being gentled, I'm not sure he would have opted for the latter.
??? I was under the impression we were talking about LTT and what they should have done to keep male channelers from running amok. It's pretty obvious the modern Tower has absolutely no clue about the properties of the object they're Swearing on, and it would be unthinkable to have some nutty male channeler use it for that purpose. Even with the friendly neighborhood Cadsuane kicking butt and taking names.

At Logain's point in time, the Tower pretty much had its collective head up its own backside.
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  #24  
Old 10-20-2012, 12:04 PM
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Obviously. However, they've had about 4,000 years in between the times of LTT and Logain, in which there was plenty of opportunity for at least some AS to try this. We also know that at least in the beginning of that period, they did try a lot of things to find a way of handling the problem; one of the results of that was the Domination Band (the E've) which Nynaeve found. Only when everything they'd thought of failed completely and they no longer could think of anything else did they give up.
I do not see any reason to assume they never thought of trying to use the Oath Rod in this context. If someone can give me such a reason (preferably supported from the books) then I may very well reconsider. Until then, the conclusion that the OR does not work on men is far more reasonable than the idea that it would work but just hasn't been tried.
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2012, 07:29 PM
Cabadrin Cabadrin is offline
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The Rod "Caddar" gave Sevanna to use to control Rand worked on Galina. Why would "Caddar" give away a Rod that only worked on women? Oops, silly of me, I gave her the wrong Rod?


And, WH ch 13, Graendal:
Quote:
"If the young man does somehow remove the shadow, well....You who channel saidin will no longer need the Great Lord's special protection. Will he trust your...loyalty...then?"
followed by a Demanderd POV:
Quote:
During the War of Power, more than a dozen of the Chosen had died of the Great Lord's suspicion.
Apparently, the DO does not use Oaths to control the Forsaken. There are negative effects. Perhaps it is not just the Pattern spinning out new possibilities in preparation for the Last Battle that opens up for the wondergirls to introduce so many inventions. They are not bound by Oaths.

Last edited by Cabadrin; 10-20-2012 at 08:05 PM.
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2012, 09:04 PM
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Question is, were there any sane ones at that point, and as you say - if the person suddenly goes nuts due to the taint, they can only stop channeling when they're in control.
Given that the Breaking lasted over 300 years and included an offer of Sanctuary by the Ogier where a good number of men stayed in the Stedding while every possibility to reverse the Taint was exhausted, I would suspect that there were some sane ones left.
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  #27  
Old 10-20-2012, 09:10 PM
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The Rod "Caddar" gave Sevanna to use to control Rand worked on Galina. Why would "Caddar" give away a Rod that only worked on women? Oops, silly of me, I gave her the wrong Rod?
In actuality, he didnt give it to her to control Rand. He gave it to her to control Galina (or any other Aes Sedai...) because she had asked for one. Here's the quote again:

Quote:
TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
"If you want to make an Aes Sedai obey you," a man's voice said behind her, "this might help." Incredulous, Sevanna spun about to find Caddar standing there, and beside him the woman—the Aes Sedai—Maisia, both dressed in dark silk and fine lace as they had been six days ago, each with a bulging sack hanging incongruously from one shoulder by a strap. Caddar held out a smooth white rod about a foot long in one dark hand.
And here's the next part of that passage that is the basis for all this back and forth:

Quote:
TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
"Women who can channel, Sevanna," Caddar said, following her in. The man's tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. "You will have to wait until you have al'Thor before I give you what will control him."

"Of course," Caddar went on, "if you mean some other man—There is a thing called a binding chair. Binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it."
Cheers.
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Until then, the conclusion that the OR does not work on men is far more reasonable than the idea that it would work but just hasn't been tried.
Of course, rather than a limitation of the OR itself, it might also be that the Aes Sedai are and have been unable to channel the Saidin necessary to bind a male channeler with the male half of the source. Add on that that they couldn't teach the likes of Logain the Saidin spirit weaves necessary to do it himself, any endeavor to do so is an act of futility.

I don't see the OR as a jumped-up conduit for compulsion weaves channeled by whoever activates the rod. It's interacting directly with the intended "victim's" half of the source, and there doesn't seem to be much in the books to suggest that one half of the source may control the other half like that.
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  #29  
Old 10-21-2012, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Of course, rather than a limitation of the OR itself, it might also be that the Aes Sedai are and have been unable to channel the Saidin necessary to bind a male channeler with the male half of the source. Add on that that they couldn't teach the likes of Logain the Saidin spirit weaves necessary to do it himself, any endeavor to do so is an act of futility.
Are you sure?

Consider the following method:
Three AS link with a captured male channeler. One of the AS leads the circle. The one leading the circles weaves the appropriate saidin spirit weave to the right spot on the Oath Rod while the male channeler is holding that rod. Then the male says the words of the Oath they've agreed upon.
What reason is there to think that wouldn't work, apart from the "it does not work on males" one that you're not willing to accept as the only one that makes sense?

We know that women and men can link. We know that the AS know it. So they could have come up with this scheme quite easily.
There might be a short period of some danger in between releasing the shield on the male and him being drawn into the circle, in which he could try to fight. But with enough AS standing around, that shouldn't be a serious problem in most of the cases.
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  #30  
Old 10-21-2012, 06:10 AM
Cabadrin Cabadrin is offline
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@Davian93:

Thanks. Had forgotten that. So if we are to believe "Caddar", this could refer to the a'dam, or a rod for saidin channelers. A black rod, presumably, but not the fluted or flexible rods we know about.

It would make sense that there is, or was, such a rod. When we hear of the use in AOL, it is said to be used on criminals, not female criminals. Or did I forget that, too?
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  #31  
Old 10-21-2012, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cabadrin View Post
Thanks. Had forgotten that. So if we are to believe "Caddar", this could refer to the a'dam, or a rod for saidin channelers. A black rod, presumably, but not the fluted or flexible rods we know about.
And, if we choose not to believe Caddar wholly, then it is still quite possible that he was truthful about the Oath Rod not working on Rand. After all, he had nothing to lose by such honesty in this specific case. If she had both Rand and the OR, she would have tried it out, no matter what she was told by some wetlander. Having her find out he had lied might have led to some trouble, having her discover he was honest and knowledgeable would have improved his position.

And if Sevanna had captured Rand, then Sammael could've started figuring out what to do about it anyway. He could have provided her with a way of controlling the Dragon. He could have worked out a way to kill the captive; he would've liked that. He could have figured out a way of capturing Rand in turn. Or he could have done nothing, and let the Third Age idiots deal with the trouble they'd gotten themselves into, while he was pursuing his own interests.

All in all, he had nothing to lose by telling the truth, and a little bit to lose by being wrong about this detail. So he was more likely than not correct.
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  #32  
Old 10-21-2012, 07:36 AM
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@GonzoTheGreat:

And the white Rod is suggestive. It is reasonable that a white Ter'angreal would be saidar and a black Ter'angreal would saidin.
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  #33  
Old 10-21-2012, 08:10 AM
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@GonzoTheGreat:

And the white Rod is suggestive. It is reasonable that a white Ter'angreal would be saidar and a black Ter'angreal would saidin.

As equally suggestive is that the one given Sevanna is numbered 111 and the one in the White Tower is numbered 3 -- both odd numbers. We've never seen an even numbered binder.
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  #34  
Old 10-21-2012, 08:21 AM
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As equally suggestive is that the one given Sevanna is numbered 111 and the one in the White Tower is numbered 3 -- both odd numbers. We've never seen an even numbered binder.
Maybe they didn't know about even numbers in the AOL?
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  #35  
Old 10-21-2012, 09:15 AM
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More likely they didn't know odd numbers are male and even numbers are female, at least that's how I have always pictured them. Probably because that's how it's organized with swedish social security numbers. I think Weird Harold's observation clinches it.

Remains to explain the absence of black/evennumbered rods. Could it be that female channelers were trying to use them against male channelers after the Breaking, and the madmen destroyed most of them?

Last edited by Cabadrin; 10-21-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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  #36  
Old 10-21-2012, 10:45 AM
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Are you sure?
I was indicating a possible answer, so no I'm not sure. Discussing possibilities and haven't discarded anything yet.

The problem with the method you've chosen is in the context of the modern Tower, it's unthinkable. Outrageous. Borderline blasphemous. Foolhardy beyond all reason, and indicative that a sister has abandoned all reason. Recall that when Logain's shenanigans went down, there were no super girls changing the face of the Tower, no mighty Dragons utterly destroying the way they thought about the world. No cleansing the source. Even the adventurous Cadsuane or Moiraine would not have suggested such a thing.

It was not in their character; the world required a paradigm shift.

You mistake "can do" for "would do".

This is why the Tower, as it was, had to be Broken. Too steeped in tradition, too besotted by its own ways and arrogance to even consider something like that. Even though it might have worked.

I say might have, but again it comes back to this: if the OR is nothing more than a weave by one party (it can be the "victim"), followed by words spoken by the target, it's nothing more than a jumped-up compulsion spell, and the use of a ter'angreal seems wholly unnecessary. Moreover, compulsion doesn't cause agelessness.

The point, as far as I can tell, is to use the intended target's own half of the source against themselves. Normally, this would be a woman. And I do like the suggestions that have been made about one type of OR for each gender, though it seems unlikely that special numbering AND color coding would be required. Redundant?

Now that I think about it, have we ever seen a *angreal that can be used by both halves of the Source?
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  #37  
Old 10-21-2012, 10:57 AM
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Now that I think about it, have we ever seen a *angreal that can be used by both halves of the Source?
Bowl of the Winds?
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  #38  
Old 10-21-2012, 12:05 PM
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The problem with the method you've chosen is in the context of the modern Tower, it's unthinkable.
Which is only relevant, of course, if the Tower had become that hidebound and unwilling to change before they'd even acquired the Oath Rod. But if that had been the case, then they would not have been willing to start using the thing. Which, in turn, proves that the idea that this method was tried is not outrageous at all.
My suggestion is not so much that they would try it now. It is that they would have tried it in the first couple of centuries (say, until the time of the Trolloc Wars), before they gave up on trying to restore the situation where both men and women could channel.

Quote:
It was not in their character; the world required a paradigm shift.

You mistake "can do" for "would do".
As I try to make clear, I am saying "would have done in the past", whereas you're arguing "wouldn't do now". Those two may not be incompatible.

Quote:
Now that I think about it, have we ever seen a *angreal that can be used by both halves of the Source?
The Rhuidean pillars, which don't require the OP at all? (Surmiser's example may be better, but I haven't figured out how to steal credit for that, yet.)

Possibly (though that's a bit speculative) the TAR training devices?
That would explain why Elayne couldn't properly replicate them: doing a good job would have required her to be in a link with a man, so that both saidin and saidar were involved.
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  #39  
Old 10-21-2012, 12:48 PM
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The other possibility is that the Oath Rod only works on females...
That may have been Mitt Romney's point when he talked about "binders full of women."
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Old 10-21-2012, 12:56 PM
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That may have been Mitt Romney's point when he talked about "binders full of women."
Mittandred?
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