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  #41  
Old 10-21-2012, 01:09 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
...say, until the time of the Trolloc Wars...
IIRC the WT didn't start using the Oath Rod until around the Trolloc Wars (and/or the formation of the BA)

It is entirely possible that the WT didn't possess an Oath Rod until then and/or didn't know what it did or how to use it. By the time they started to use it, the "proper" procedures for dealing with male channelers was already firmly defined, if not set in stone.

FWIW, since we've only seen binders #3 and #111 we've seen less than two percent of those manufactured in the AOL. That's a very small sample to draw any conclusions from.
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  #42  
Old 10-21-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Res_Ipsa View Post
That may have been Mitt Romney's point when he talked about "binders full of women."
I still wouldn't vote for him but I'd at least respect his reading choices.

Unfortunately, he's stated that his favorite fictional book is Battlefield Earth...one of the worst Sci-Fi books ever written. Though he partially redeems himself with the mention of Ender's Game.
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  #43  
Old 10-21-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Which is only relevant, of course, if the Tower had become that hidebound and unwilling to change before they'd even acquired the Oath Rod. But if that had been the case, then they would not have been willing to start using the thing. Which, in turn, proves that the idea that this method was tried is not outrageous at all.
Tried perhaps, but found feasible? See earlier points, and in regards to-

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It is that they would have tried it in the first couple of centuries (say, until the time of the Trolloc Wars), before they gave up on trying to restore the situation where both men and women could channel.
I question whether this would actually have been the case. LTT screwed up, screwed up bad, and so badly that nobody saw it coming. I mean, we see it in the opening of the series. I don't think he'd have been able to off his entire family and become the Kinslayer if anyone had seen it coming. The taint toxic-dumped the male half of the source, creating an instant disaster of global proportions.

It's like those global disaster movies you see - is it really reasonable or rational in the middle of a disaster in process, where the disaster involves thousands (?) of men going insane, blowing things up and slaughtering everyone around them no matter how close they are in family?

Bearing in mind that there are STILL Forsaken alive and untrapped outside the Bore at this point, and conducting a War against the forces of Light.

Is the reaction in the underground bunker really going to be: Hey, I bet we could track each of these guys down individually and make them swear not to use the source!

Circumstances killed them the first time, stupidity the second time. In between, Ishamael and fixing the mess got in the way.

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As I try to make clear, I am saying "would have done in the past", whereas you're arguing "wouldn't do now". Those two may not be incompatible.
I'm inclined to believe that while it *could* have happened. the probability of it happening that way seems terribly low.

Back to the feasibility - how do you make that happen? How do you fight two Wars at the same time, one against half the population, and one against the surviving members of the Shadow?

The answer is, you don't.

Fair points on the ter'angreals that utilize both sides of the source. Wanted clarification before I made any points based on that information.
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  #44  
Old 10-22-2012, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by eht slat meit View Post
Back to the feasibility - how do you make that happen? How do you fight two Wars at the same time, one against half the population, and one against the surviving members of the Shadow?

The answer is, you don't.
Maybe not, but attempts were still made after the Breaking was over, when no living Forsaken were left apart from those who had been bound by LTT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoD, Chapter 5, The Breaking Storm
"That is ridiculous." Exasperation dripped from Sareitha’s voice. "If you must know, it was the problem of men who can channel that drew them to it. The Breaking of the World was a living memory to some, then. I don’t suppose even very many sisters remember – it hasn’t been part of the required instruction since before the Trolloc Wars – but men can be brought into a circle, too, and as the circle doesn’t break even if you go to sleep... Well, you can see the advantages. That was an utter failure, unfortunately. More to the point here, I say again that it is impossible to force a woman into a circle. If you doubt, try it yourself. You will see."
Based on what we're told here, the attempt was made after the Breaking, yet they still involved men in a circle then.
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  #45  
Old 10-22-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I still wouldn't vote for him but I'd at least respect his reading choices.

Unfortunately, he's stated that his favorite fictional book is Battlefield Earth...one of the worst Sci-Fi books ever written. Though he partially redeems himself with the mention of Ender's Game.
I need to read Ender's Game sometime, a lot of people talk about it.
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  #46  
Old 10-22-2012, 12:09 PM
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I need to read Ender's Game sometime, a lot of people talk about it.
Its a good book...the rest of the series isn't as good.

Well worth the read.

"The enemy's gate is down"
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  #47  
Old 10-22-2012, 03:11 PM
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Its a good book...the rest of the series isn't as good.

Well worth the read.

"The enemy's gate is down"
If that were GRRM writing I would think the book was hyper sexual (Red Wedding jibes as they are doing the bedding)
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"Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the last Day."
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  #48  
Old 10-22-2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Its a good book...the rest of the series isn't as good.

Well worth the read.

"The enemy's gate is down"
Ender's Game is pretty good, but unlike Davian, I think the rest of the series is better. They started losing me a little on the spin-off Shadow series. Xenocide, Speaker for the Dead, and Children of the Mind are my three favorite books in the entire saga.

One thing to keep in mind, the spin-off's are actually more in-line with Ender's Game than the rest of the actual series. OSC had the idea for the rest of the series as a separate and unrelated series and ended up combining them, the 2nd book thru the last one are a totally different tone and aside from 2 returning characters, contain very little in common with Ender's Game, or the Shadows spin-offs. I really liked it a lot. The spin-off Shadow series on the other hand, follows the other kids in Enders Game and dues ex bullshit aside, is a pretty decent stand alone series in of itself.
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  #49  
Old 10-24-2012, 04:32 PM
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Default Male Binding

Personally, whether an OR worked on men or not, I think that they would have wanted to use an A'dam. But he would not bring it to such an insect until they had Rand.
I don't think that the OR's that are out there would work on a male, but that's a gut feeling. I do kinda like the idea of Sadin being channeled into the opposite end of the OR to work for a male. I don't think there is any real evidence that they would not work no males though.
On the "They would have tried it" point, I agree. That does not mean that they did not try it. But since the males could not control touching the source, being mad and all, they would have died from the binding. This practice would have been found to not be effective and not worth the effort of catching and binding the male.
Fast forward to present time, there are no males to experiment with due to the mindset of the WT. Not only do they believe to strongly in tradition, but they really don't know what they are doing with all the toys that they have found.
So, yes, it could have been tried, and the knowledge lost that it is not worth it.
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  #50  
Old 10-25-2012, 05:05 AM
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On the "They would have tried it" point, I agree. That does not mean that they did not try it. But since the males could not control touching the source, being mad and all, they would have died from the binding. This practice would have been found to not be effective and not worth the effort of catching and binding the male.
Why do you assume that every male who could channel was mad?
Based on the evidence, there's no reason to make that assumption.

There are quite a lot of Asha'man who learned how to channel while the Taint was there who can decide not to do so, at least most of the time. All the OR would then need to do is stop them the rest of the time too.
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  #51  
Old 10-25-2012, 08:29 AM
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Why do you assume that every male who could channel was mad?
Based on the evidence, there's no reason to make that assumption.

There are quite a lot of Asha'man who learned how to channel while the Taint was there who can decide not to do so, at least most of the time. All the OR would then need to do is stop them the rest of the time too.
The Breaking too over 300 years because it took that long for all the men to go mad and then die. The Ogier's offer of sanctuary was a big part of that but that also prevented it from being so massive all at once as to destroy humanity.

There were plenty of sane male channelers even 100 years into the Breaking. Only the original Hundred Companions went instantly mad. Examples of this would be the men used in making the Eye of the World which happened a good bit into the Breaking along with things like the Stone of Tear.
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  #52  
Old 10-25-2012, 10:51 AM
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Why do you assume that every male who could channel was mad?
Based on the evidence, there's no reason to make that assumption.

There are quite a lot of Asha'man who learned how to channel while the Taint was there who can decide not to do so, at least most of the time. All the OR would then need to do is stop them the rest of the time too.
For some, but not for others. The mad ones would not be able to control themselves and die, either from the OR or from madness.

The "sane" males did not go mad right away, but they were tainted with their first touch of Sadin after the counterstrike. Madness is not just random crazy, it's the belief that something is real that is not. You can be mildly insane. The shadows in ToM are a good example. The problem is, he knew they were real. Little madness is just as crazy as no madness. If he truly felt that the shadows were coming, he would have contacted the closest Vorlon and, wait no, he may well try for the source to defend himself. Being blocked and in a panic he might try harder and harder till the OR killed him. We have no reference of someone being untouched by the taint after the breaking. Oddly enough, crazy shows up in crazy ways. I don't think that they would have been able to stop themselves from trying to touch the OP.

The Ogier's sanctuary is a perfect example. The males for what ever reason left the stedding knowing that they would die. Whether this is from the life shortening effects of the OR or from madness, who knows.

Ultimately, all the male channlers are ded. Knowledge passes to myth, myth passes to legend, legend passes to gentle all male channlers and "ohhhh, look at this pretty rod. Oh, wow! It uses the OP."
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