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  #21  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by The Angry Druid View Post
RJ kept the male Forsaken strength rather vague on purpose, and many statements seem contradictory.

Also, on should remember, when discussion the most powerful Forsaken, power in that context may not equate to OP strength.

Both the dexterity (both in terms of speed and precision) could be a huge factor in who wins a OP duel. And a channeler could have particular strengths or Talents that could alter the outcome...

...Lastly, a person may have other Talents unrelated to the OP that make them more feared/powerful. Lanfer's ability to watch others unseen in T'A'R comes to mind...

...http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...rength-in.html


I have to mostly agree with your position. In fact RJ's comment on strength is likely borne out of the same thing: he probably wanted to avoid giving the impression that strength is everything, and I agree.

But it still counts. Its important enough. And as I said earlier, its simply good to know. If a relatively weak channeler thumps a stronger, it adds to the understanding of what you're reading if you happen to understand just what factors the author relied on to bring about that outcome.

It might be as simple as taveren luck, or oath rod induced mental retardation, or some other factor that decides the battle, but for me, ignorance is not bliss.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kimon
Rand
Moridin
Demandred
Taim & Logain
Narishma & Flinn
Sandomere
Actually I think its best to consider Rand and LTT as two separate entities for this purpose just as I rated Lanfear and Cyndane separately though I believe them to be the same person.

The reasons are obvious. If LTT is Rand as some used to claim, has he gained all of LTT's strength? Does one have the same strength in OP every time he's spun out by the wheel?

Two, how will Rand's strength be affected by the link to Moridin? Will it be like being in a circle? Where he cannot overdraw and cannot draw as much as he could otherwise? Is that why he didn't overdraw at the eye while Aginor died? What of the other links between him and Mat and Perrin? Will it affect his strength? Or even the link between Rand and LTT himself?

Three, if Rand and LTT are separate entities, and we assume LTT burned out at dragonmount, then both men are dependent on Rand's strength which may not be anywhere near LTT's. And we still have to factor the same sex links into it!

So to avoid arguement, I'm proposing judging both men separately. LTT is as strong as possible. Rand, IMO, is growing and at present is forsaken class. Or at least stronger than nyn. Rand's gateways were larger than Egwene's as of LoC, so I think I can assume that for the moment.

However the list likely would be more like this:

1. Lews Therin

2. Ishamael

3. Lanfear?

4. Aginor?

5. One of Belal /Beltamal(Arangar) /Demandred /Rahvin /Sammael /Rand /Taim.

Aginor is stated to be close behind LTT and Ishamael in the bwb. But how close? And why? Simply close in raw OP strength? We know that Demandred acts as if he was more powerful. Perhaps that is because of Demandred's skills and talents. And Aginor might not want to risk open confrontation with someone as strong as Demandred, choosing instead to rely on other means such as the Gholam.

Personally I've always doubted that Aginor just created all those shadowspawn out of scientific curiosity alone, though RJ does paint him as the mad scientist type. But mad scientist sometimes have big ambitions as well. And Aginor/Dashiva demonstrated his at the battle of shadar logoth.

Among the remaining male forsaken, its likely that they're close enough to each other that the difference wouldn't count except in the most superficial way. Their tactical prowess or lack of it, skills and any wild card they may be holding will likely play a bigger role in who wins than actual strength.

Having said that, i think that Balthamel?Arangar was probably next in raw strength but Demandred the most powerful after Ishamael.

After Balthamael may have been Belal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwb
he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael,
And then Demandred.

As I said earlier, if nyn could hold Logain, and he's close to Rand, then Rand isn't very far from nyn or graendal in strength, and may even be behind Taim!
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  #22  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
A block implies a wilder, which Androl is not. It also comes with an inability to channel at will, which Androl doesn't have
Actually, he is the ultimate wilder! All the students at the BT learn on their own. Except the ones that Taim has in his classes. Many may have developed blocks in training. Afterall who's there to tell what's wrong and what's right?

Androl does everything through the use of gateways. And manages a precision with gateways that even stronger channelers like Logain may be hard pressed to match.

And the rule about gateways wasn't made up by anyone. Its in the books and hasn't been countered anywhere that I know of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987
Why shouldn't it be so? As per Brandon, there are only six women stronger than Nynaeve, and we already knew she was in the upper echelons of female Forsaken strength
Could you provide the quotes? I think they would be helpful.
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  #23  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:33 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
As I said earlier, if nyn could hold Logain, and he's close to Rand, then Rand isn't very far from nyn or graendal in strength, and may even be behind Taim!
Of course, it is entirely unclear whether Nynaeve could actually have held Logain if he had really wanted to try to fight his way out of a town full of AS.

If he had been willing to try that, then he could have pushed her to the max by straining to break through the shield, and then throttled her with his bare hands. If she'd let up with the OP, he could have grasped saidin and killed her that way, if she didn't, his greater physical strength would suffice.

But then he would have been in rather a lot of trouble, so instead he tried a different, more subtle, approach. Which, you may remember, actually worked. Egwene did the decent thing then, while all the other AS were dithering.
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  #24  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:52 AM
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Of course, it is entirely unclear whether Nynaeve could actually have held Logain if he had really wanted to try to fight his way out of a town full of AS.

That's only a part of what makes it a difficult call, Gonzo. How good is nyn at shielding? Truth is, the only absolute thing that this tells us is that Logain would likely be better at breaking a shield than Moghedien. Or that he is stronger than Moghedien. Not much more is certain. But if little pointers are what we can get, then we'll use it and see what comes of it after bwbII.

Do you where i can a description of the size of Rand's gateways?

E: also iirc RJ said that a woman had to be much stronger to hold a man, not just being a raw match in OP strength, but i'm unsure.
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  #25  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:06 PM
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Actually, he is the ultimate wilder! All the students at the BT learn on their own. Except the ones that Taim has in his classes. Many may have developed blocks in training. Afterall who's there to tell what's wrong and what's right?
Wait what? Just because Taim has "special" classes doesn't mean the other Ashaman are just all learning alone. Of course they are being taught. We see it happening.
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  #26  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:37 PM
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Wait what? Just because Taim has "special" classes doesn't mean the other Ashaman are just all learning alone. Of course they are being taught. We see it happening.
Somehow I think the curriculum at the BT is too 'new' for it to automatically avoid producing wilders. I mean, were the Daughters of Silence not wilders just because there were 'teachers?'

I agree that 'special classes' probably doesn't mean what gw says it does, but I think Androl's story is still vague enough that he may very well be a wilder in the traditional sense (independent of whether the BT can really teach well enough to not produce some anyway)
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  #27  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:43 PM
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It depends on how you define "wilder".

If you take the strict definition (anyone not trained in the WT), then they are all wilders. As are all WOs, Windfinders and damane.

If you take a more sensible definition (anyone self taught), then most in the BT would not be wilders.

Either way, they could develop blocks. That happens to actual Novices in the WT too, after all.
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  #28  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:46 PM
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Somehow I think the curriculum at the BT is too 'new' for it to automatically avoid producing wilders. I mean, were the Daughters of Silence not wilders just because there were 'teachers?'

I agree that 'special classes' probably doesn't mean what gw says it does, but I think Androl's story is still vague enough that he may very well be a wilder in the traditional sense (independent of whether the BT can really teach well enough to not produce some anyway)
It really seems to come down to what your definition of a Wilder is. If you think "Wilder" means anyone not trained by the White Tower (as most AS do), then all Asha'man are wilders - as are Aiel Wise One Channellers, Windfinders, Kin, and even Damane. If you use the more traditional definition of wilder (which is also slightly less pejorative) meaning "self-taught", then the Asha'man are in more of a grey area. There's definitely a degree of working it out as they go along and a number of "acceptable losses" by way of burn-out, etc, but they're not teaching themselves, from scratch, how to touch the source, which is what I think the second definition of "wilder" means. I also don't think the Daughters of Silence were wilders in that second sense.
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  #29  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
If you take the strict definition (anyone not trained in the WT), then they are all wilders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
If you think "Wilder" means anyone not trained by the White Tower (as most AS do), then all Asha'man are wilders
lol.

Thanks. I was less interested in 'what constitutes a wilder' than in the nature of blocks themselves. Which, as Gonzo pointed out, can happen to anyone, not just wilders. Even though it may be more common amongst the self-taught.
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  #30  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Greatwolf
Is that why he didn't overdraw at the eye while Aginor died?
According to popular belief, Rand and Moridin did not become linked until his battle with Sammael, so the link is almost certainly not the reason Rand failed to overdraw.

Quote:
What of the other links between him and Mat and Perrin?
There is no evidence whatsoever I've encountered that his ta'veren link affects his channeling ability/potential.

Quote:
Will it affect his strength? Or even the link between Rand and LTT himself?
Rand is LTT reborn, meaning the Dragon soul reincarnated. There is no "link" between them, besides the fact that they are different incarnations of the same soul.

Quote:
Three, if Rand and LTT are separate entities, and we assume LTT burned out at dragonmount, then both men are dependent on Rand's strength which may not be anywhere near LTT's.
I don't follow... First of all, is LTT still a 'man'? Secondly, why would LTT be dependent on Rand's strength in any fashion? He died years ago. And even if you are inexplicably somehow still a "real'er" the personality is now integrated with Rand anyways as of ToM.

Quote:
So to avoid arguement, I'm proposing judging both men separately. LTT is as strong as possible. Rand, IMO, is growing and at present is forsaken class. Or at least stronger than nyn. Rand's gateways were larger than Egwene's as of LoC, so I think I can assume that for the moment.
Except that there have been dozens of accounts in the books of the Forsaken listing Rand's strength as "as strong as any." Lanfear says on one instance that (paraphrasing) Rand is LTT reborn, and LTT was as strong as anyone (implying that Rand is, as well). He matched up evenly in the Power with Rahvin in book 5, grew stronger and matched up with Sammael later, and has grown considerably stronger since. It seems fairly obvious that the only channeler to whom we've been introduced that can match Rand's raw strength is Moridin. Didn't you see Rand dispatch of that entire army of shadowspawn in ToM? There's no one as strong as Rand in the series, with the possible exception of Moridin.

Quote:
Aginor is stated to be close behind LTT and Ishamael in the bwb. But how close? And why? Simply close in raw OP strength? We know that Demandred acts as if he was more powerful. Perhaps that is because of Demandred's skills and talents.
The BWB describes Aginor as third in the Power to LTT and Moridin. He is not a dominant personality, and perhaps not as skilled in combat as Sammael and Demandred, but it is explicitly stated he is stronger than both in raw power.

Quote:
Having said that, i think that Balthamel?Arangar was probably next in raw strength but Demandred the most powerful after Ishamael.
Sammael is described as more powerful than Balthamel, but probably less so than Demandred and Aginor.

Quote:
As I said earlier, if nyn could hold Logain, and he's close to Rand, then Rand isn't very far from nyn or graendal in strength, and may even be behind Taim!
Logain is at least a level below Rand; he admitted as much after seeing Rand's deathgates. Also, Nynaeve is nowhere near as strong as Logain. It is much easier to maintain a shield already in place than to shield someone who is holding the power; and she had immense struggle just maintaining the shield. Also, Rand has grown stronger in the Power since Logain admitted Rand was stronger than he, while Logain, having channeled for a considerably longer period of time, has not.

Quote:
1. Lews Therin

2. Ishamael

3. Lanfear?

4. Aginor?

5. One of Belal /Beltamal(Arangar) /Demandred /Rahvin /Sammael /Rand /Taim.
If I were to make a list of top tier male strength, it would be:

1. Rand/Moridin/LTT/Ishamael
2. Aginor/Demandred (with Demandred slightly weaker, but on the same tier)
3. Sammael/Be'lal (possibly; the Guide is ambiguous)
4. Rahvin/Balthamel/Taim/Logain
5. Asmodean

Rand is, IMO, obviously up with Moridin at the top. He is the Chosen of the Light, the Dragon soul, and born to be as strong as one can be. Ishamael we know was comparably strong with LTT.

Aginor, as listed by the Guide is the #2 Forsaken in the Power. That doesn't mean he would beat all the others in a confrontation, but he is immensely strong in raw Power. However, Demandred and Sammael, both immensely powerful in their own right, seem to be much more skilled in combat. Demandred was described as just below LTT in strength and skill, which means he is probably relatively comparable to Aginor in raw power.

Sammael is described as the next most powerful, and Be'lal is so ambiguously listed (and described in the books only very briefly) to warrant a place anywhere on tiers 3-5 in my opinion.

Taim and Logain have been set up as opposite poles in the BT (similar to the Rand/Moridin dynamic), and so it only makes sense that they have comparable strength levels. Rand was about as strong as Rahvin in book 5 (before becoming stronger and matching Sammael in book 7), and Rahvin and Balthamel seem to be hovering around similar power levels at the lower end of Forsaken male strength). And, of course, Asmodean is the weakest of the male Forsaken.

I think it's impossible to put Lanfear (or any woman) on this list, as we have no way whatsoever of comparing male to female strength (or dexterity of weaving).
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  #31  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:28 PM
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Interesting discussion, and I will weigh in on a couple points, FWIW (if anything).

First, I don't put a lot of stock in Gateway size or the ability to hold some one as an indicator of strength. Too many other factors can alter it.

For the latter, we've seen that a channeler who lacked the strength to be Aes Sedai could hold a shield on Nynaeve (she even said it was almost a Talent with her) and Lanfear's comments on Asmodean's inability to break down a shield because he isn't good at accepting pain, despite the fact he is quite strong, as channelers go.

In terms of the former, we have Androl. Again, hardly any strength, but very t(T)alented at making gateways. Plus, though I don't have it handy, didn't Rand once say he tried to make gateways bigger to accommodate all the Aiel, but the size was always just about the same? Or was that the size of the skimming platform? Or was it Avi or Elayne? Even it was the platform, it is kind of the same thing and points to gateway size NOT directly correlating to OP strength.

Yes, it can be indicative, but there are so many other factors involved (talent of wielder, size on first making) that in any particular instance, we can't be sure.

In terms of Androl being blocked, that doesn't make sense to me at all. He has conscious control and can channel when he wants. He isn't blocked at all. The whole 'Wilder' discussion is irrelevant. Now, maybe he hasn't come into his full strength yet, but he is NOT blocked.

And I'd again reiterate the danger of using quotes saying the X Forsaken was the most powerful, most dangerous, or the like to OP strength. For instance, Egwene is much more dangerous than Nynaeve. About the only way Nynaeve could defeat Eggy would be in an OP duel, otherwise, Eggy just has to wait for Nyneave to go to sleep, pull her into T'A'R and snuff her out. Bair or Amys could do the same thing to Eggy prior to her training, if they were so inclined. And from 1000's of miles away without putting themselves in danger. Far more dangerous and powerful in my book, yet weaker in the OP.
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  #32  
Old 02-28-2012, 04:23 AM
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Interesting discussion, and I will weigh in on a couple points, FWIW (if anything).
Worth more than you know.
Quote:
First, I don't put a lot of stock in Gateway size or the ability to hold some one as an indicator of strength. Too many other factors can alter it.
Well. This may be a fair point, but it is both overthinking the issue and not thinking it through enough.

For the overthinking:
This is a rough list, an attempt to quantify something that may or may not be overly important. And shielding power and Gateway size have proven to have a high correlation to potential. The existence of a few exceptions are not evidence against correlation. So, using both is perfectly acceptable for this rough list.

Now for the underthinking:
You don't look very deep into these exceptions. Maybe you're right, and we should just take them at face value, but...maybe not.
Quote:
For the latter, we've seen that a channeler who lacked the strength to be Aes Sedai could hold a shield on Nynaeve (she even said it was almost a Talent with her)
Maybe it was a Talent with her. Or maybe her shields are in some way qualitatively different. Maybe both (ie, the Talent to produce nontraditional shields).
Quote:
and Lanfear's comments on Asmodean's inability to break down a shield because he isn't good at accepting pain, despite the fact he is quite strong, as channelers go.
Well, this is really an entirely different case. This so-called shield was most certainly qualitatively different (Asmodean could actually still channel).
Quote:
In terms of the former, we have Androl. Again, hardly any strength, but very t(T)alented at making gateways.
Hardly any displayed strength. Men are not like women in this respect: potential is almost impossible to know unless the channeler takes hold of his maximum (or, as is shown to almost always be the case, he weaves a maximum-size Gateway).
Quote:
Plus, though I don't have it handy, didn't Rand once say he tried to make gateways bigger to accommodate all the Aiel, but the size was always just about the same? Or was that the size of the skimming platform? Or was it Avi or Elayne?
It was Rand. fionwe posted the quote. And it was the platform.
Quote:
Even it was the platform, it is kind of the same thing and points to gateway size NOT directly correlating to OP strength.
It is not the same thing at all. Gateway size is directly related to their making. The Power is highly involved in their making. You may not need to channel all of your Power to create your maximum gateway, and you may be able to create multiple full-size Gateways simultaneously, but all evidence save Androl points to Gateway size being a direct function of potential.

You should reread that passage. The platform is far more similar to creation in TAR. Just look at Nynaeve's palaces and trees, you'll see the similarities. And the comment about the Power having little to do with Gateways is quite clearly referring to the nature of the Skimming space.
Quote:
In terms of Androl being blocked, that doesn't make sense to me at all. He has conscious control and can channel when he wants. He isn't blocked at all. The whole 'Wilder' discussion is irrelevant. Now, maybe he hasn't come into his full strength yet, but he is NOT blocked.
You seem quite sure of that last. Although I agree with the note on wilders, I think you are oversimplifying blocks.

Hand waving, not being able to channel unless angry, can't embrace the Source unless eyes are closed, or if the channeler is in the presence of guy...these are phenomena that we have heard of. It sounds an awful lot like neurology and psychology. On a profound level.

You say it doesn't make sense to you. Let me give it a try:
What if Androl's 'block' is simply that he can't channel strongly if he lacks confidence (or is wearing a black coat)? I put 'block' in quotes because I consider the 'hand-waving' to be a sort of block as well. If you want to go black/white on this, that's fine: let hand-waving be an impairment. Maybe Androl has a sort of impairment as well. What is it specifically? I'm not sure, but if it's true, I can see why we wouldn't know the specifics yet, as they might be too spoilery.

Or maybe Androl is just really Talented. And the Creator has a sense of humor (a guy who loves to travel can only Travel).
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by suttree
Wait what? Just because Taim has "special" classes doesn't mean the other Ashaman are just all learning alone. Of course they are being taught.

And just what would you call someone trained by a wilder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH prologue
“What you can tell him is all I know,” Logain replied. “Mistress al’Meara didn’t tell me much of what she was doing, and I could only learn bits and pieces listening to the other sisters talk. Just keep planting the seed and hope something grows. It’s all you can do.” Several other men nodded along with Genhald.
Simply put, they're being taught by people who are feeling the way themselves. Its as informal as learning can get. Remember also, that men who can channel are still reviled. Wanting to learn means wanting to an object of revulsion. It won't be easy on the pysche. That might increase the number of blocks.

And since their teachers don't know anything about blocks, who's to say the place isn't full of blocked wilders?


Quote:
Originally Posted by angrydruid
Yes, it can be indicative, but there are so many other factors involved (talent of wielder, size on first making) that in any particular instance, we can't be sure.

In terms of Androl being blocked, that doesn't make sense to me at all. He has conscious control and can channel when he wants. He isn't blocked at all. The whole 'Wilder' discussion is irrelevant. Now, maybe he hasn't come into his full strength yet, but he is NOT blocked.
I think we can be reasonably sure. If 500-1000 men live together and they're continuously making gates, then they ought to know by now if gateway size has anything to do with strength. What they may be unaware of is if there are ways to make a gateway smaller than its absolute size. We don't how how much they've experimented on this or how well.

And for the other, I think its a reasonable theory as any I've heard on why androl can do what he does. I'm certain that RJ wanted things this way though. Moiraine talked of limitations of travelling as far back as EotW. But its also likely that it will be possible to make small gateways say to put a hand through for a brief period.


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Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
According to popular belief, Rand and Moridin did not become linked until his battle with Sammael, so the link is almost certainly not the reason Rand failed to overdraw.

Of course, but Rand must have had the link to Mat and Perrin before that. Unless you have some explanation as to where they could have been linked?

Quote:
There is no evidence whatsoever I've encountered that his ta'veren link affects his channeling ability/potential.

You probably skimmed some posts. There are reasons why I'm examining this possibility. One is nyn holding Logain by herself. The other is the number of men that are close to Rand in strength. If Rand had achieved LTT's potential, there's likely to be very very few people capable of coming close to him. We have that from RJ's comments on a bell curve for channeling strength.


Quote:
Rand is LTT reborn, meaning the Dragon soul reincarnated. There is no "link" between them, besides the fact that they are different incarnations of the same soul.
No I'm not going there. Hold onto it.

Quote:
I don't follow... First of all, is LTT still a 'man'? Secondly, why would LTT be dependent on Rand's strength in any fashion? He died years ago. And even if you are inexplicably somehow still a "real'er" the personality is now integrated with Rand anyways as of ToM.

What matters to this thread is that Rand is not as strong as LTT was for now. Maybe later, but definitely not yet.


Quote:
Except that there have been dozens of accounts in the books of the Forsaken listing Rand's strength as "as strong as any." Lanfear says on one instance that (paraphrasing) Rand is LTT reborn, and LTT was as strong as anyone (implying that Rand is, as well). He matched up evenly in the Power with Rahvin in book 5, grew stronger and matched up with Sammael later, and has grown considerably stronger since.

as you said, he's been getting stronger. Meaning he may still be getting stronger. And no certainity that he will match LTT of the aol. The forsaken are transmigrated full strength. But not Rand/LTT. So until we find out he's stronger in raw strength than Ishamael, then we can say he's got LTT's strength.

Lanfear was definitely saying what she wanted them to hear. If she thought he wasn't at full strength, she wouldn't allow them to know of it.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Simply put, they're being taught by people who are feeling the way themselves. Its as informal as learning can get. Remember also, that men who can channel are still reviled. Wanting to learn means wanting to an object of revulsion. It won't be easy on the pysche. That might increase the number of blocks.

And since their teachers don't know anything about blocks, who's to say the place isn't full of blocked wilders?
Once again I'm gonna have to ask for evidence. This time, I will ask for specific proof that Taim and the others in the BT do not know about blocks. The reason why I ask this is that the following passage suggests very strongly that Taim does know about them, and also knows at least one way of dealing with them:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 46, Working Leather
Androl sighed. His belt knife was waiting at Cuellar's place for sharpening. Well, he thought, Taim does keep telling us to look for excuses to channel . . . Androl emptied himself of emotion, then seized the Source. It had been months since he'd had trouble doing that-at first, he'd been able to channel only when he was holding a strap of leather. The M'Hael had beaten that out of him. It had not been a pleasant process.


Quote:
You probably skimmed some posts. There are reasons why I'm examining this possibility. One is nyn holding Logain by herself.
Here I'll once again, but more explicitly, ask for evidence that Nynaeve could actually have managed to hold Logain if Logain had really tried to break the shield.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoC, Chapter 30, To Heal Again
Something pushed against the shield Nynaeve had fastened between Logain and the True Source, building until the shield began to bend and the weave trembled on the brink of ripping apart. She let saidar flow through her, sweetness reaching the very edge of pain, channeling every thread into Spirit, into the shield. "Go, Elayne!" She did not care one bit if it came out a squeal.
Elayne, the Light shine on her, wasted no time on questions. She bounded out of her chair and was gone at a dead run.
Logain had not moved a muscle. His eyes held Nynaeve’s; they seemed to shine. Light, he was big. She fumbled for her belt knife, realized how ridiculous that was – he could probably take it away from her without sweating a drop more than he already was; his shoulders suddenly seemed as wide as she was tall – and diverted some of her weave to Air, to bonds that fastened him right where he sat, arm and leg. He was still big, yet suddenly he looked more normal, entirely manageable. Only then did it occur to her that she had lessened the strength of the shield. But she could not channel a hair more; already the... the pure joy of life that was saidar was so strong in her that she nearly wanted to weep. He smiled at her.
The things to note here is that Nynaeve is close to her own breaking point, while Logain seems totally relaxed and not at all stressed. Now, it could be that Logain is putting on an act, that he too is doing all he can in this fight. But there's no actual indication of that, so it should not be our only, and probably not even our default, assumption.

Thus, what we have is the following:
When Nynaeve has Logain shielded, she has to use every scrap of her power to keep him from breaking free. When Logain is shielded by Nynaeve, he can push her to her utmost limit, and might be able to push harder still.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Once again I'm gonna have to ask for evidence. This time, I will ask for specific proof that Taim and the others in the BT do not know about blocks.

I have no doubt that Taim does. But he doesn't teach everyone everything does he? Despite that, androl is still limited in what he can do. I think it may stem from the psyche. And as I've said, they have a lot weighing on them being ashaman. I'm not even sure they know/accept that the taint is cleansed or that they know they no longer need to be such objects of horror. And if they're still going to go mad, it will add to the psychological burden. A damaged/stressed psyche can result in many things IMO, especially a block.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Here I'll once again, but more explicitly, ask for evidence that Nynaeve could actually have managed to hold Logain if Logain had really tried to break the shield.

I'll repost what I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by moi
Truth is, the only absolute thing that this tells us is that Logain would likely be better at breaking a shield than Moghedien. Or that he is stronger than Moghedien. Not much more is certain
We are not sure if Logain was holding back. IIRC, RJ said a woman had to be much stronger than a man to hold him. Meaning if nyn was equivalent to Logain in raw strength, she might still not be able to hold him.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
When Nynaeve has Logain shielded, she has to use every scrap of her power to keep him from breaking free. When Logain is shielded by Nynaeve, he can push her to her utmost limit, and might be able to push harder still.
The Nynaeve/Logain case doesn't tell us all that much since it happened back in LoC, and it's explicitly said that Nynaeve still hadn't reached her full strength as late as TPoD. Logain probably has, but we don't know for sure. Also:

Quote:
TPOD Signing Report - Justin Howell (Paraphrased)

Justin Howell: I asked why Elayne thought even a Forsaken couldn't break the shield Adeleas and Vandene were holding on Ispan, expecting the answer that Elayne is clue-impaired.

Robert Jordan: The correct answer is that holding a shield on someone depends not only on relative strength and fatigue, but also on whether the shield is held by channelers of the same sex as the victim. Thus two women (Adeleas and Vandene on Ispan, or Ispan and Falion on Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords) can hold another woman, but three women just get severed if they try to shield Rand. As a curiosity, it is also possible for multiple people to hold a shield without linking, but this is less strong and less precise, producing basically a layered shield.

Last edited by sleepinghour; 02-28-2012 at 06:10 AM.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post


It was Rand. fionwe posted the quote. And it was the platform.
I'll get to more detailed replies later, but meanwhile, I'll thank you not to mis-quote what I post. That quote was clearly not about the skimming platform. Rand explicitly says it was about the size of his Gateway.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I'll get to more detailed replies later, but meanwhile, I'll thank you not to mis-quote what I post. That quote was clearly not about the skimming platform. Rand explicitly says it was about the size of his Gateway.
Well, we'll see. In the interest of full disclosure:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
Most conclusively, there's this:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

That's proof enough that OP strength has nothing much to do with gateway sizes.
Now I sincerely doubt that this is 'proof enough'. But the full quote makes the issue more clear:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFoH,54
The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight. Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
He stepped through onto what appeared to be a paving stone lifted from the courtyard, but here the gray square hung in the midst of utter darkness, with a sense that in every direction there was nothing. Nothing, forever. It was not like night. He could see himself and the stone perfectly. But everything else, everywhere else, was blackness.
It was time to see how large he could make a platform. With the thought, more stones appeared all at once, duplicating the courtyard to an inch. He imagined it larger still. That quickly, gray stone stretched as far as he could see. With a start, he realized that his boots were beginning to sink into the stone under his feet; it looked no different, yet it yielded slowly like mud, oozing up around his boots. Hastily, he brought everything back to a square the size of what was outside—that much stayed solid—then began increasing it by one outer row of stones at a time. It did not take long to realize he could not make the platform much larger than his first attempt. The stone still looked all right, it did not sink beneath his feet, but the second added row felt . . . insubstantial, like a thin shell that might crack at a wrong step. Was that because this was as large as the thing could be made? Or because he had not thought of it larger at first? We all make our limits. The thought slid up surprisingly from somewhere. And we set them further out than we have any right.
So, you were right, in a purely technical sense. But the 'limit' you referred to is incredibly nonspecific. Once we get more information, it becomes clear that the 'limit' is the channeler's potential. The underlined portion in your quote is pretty easily explained: the amount of saidin drawn doesn't matter, but the amount that can be drawn is. Your bolded section I was correct in explaining earlier, as the rest of the quote makes clear.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf
as you said, he's been getting stronger. Meaning he may still be getting stronger. And no certainity that he will match LTT of the aol. The forsaken are transmigrated full strength. But not Rand/LTT. So until we find out he's stronger in raw strength than Ishamael, then we can say he's got LTT's strength.
Did you read the scene in ToM where Rand single-handedly and without the aid of an angreal wipes out more than 10,000 shadowspawn using dozens of powerful weaves simultaneously over an extended period of time? I haven't seen any of the Forsaken even come close to half of the power necessary for that display. I find it very hard to believe LTT could have been significantly stronger. That seemed to be an example of the maximum potential of unaided destructive channeling, in raw power, endurance, skill, and dexterity.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Did you read the scene in ToM where Rand single-handedly and without the aid of an angreal wipes out more than 10,000 shadowspawn using dozens of powerful weaves simultaneously over an extended period of time? I haven't seen any of the Forsaken even come close to half of the power necessary for that display. I find it very hard to believe LTT could have been significantly stronger. That seemed to be an example of the maximum potential of unaided destructive channeling, in raw power, endurance, skill, and dexterity.

I'll reread the scene of course, but I remember then thinking the scene was incredibly short on detail. We don't what weaves, what the composition of the weaves were, and most importantly how much strength (raw power) was needed to make them.

Egwene was able to split her weave several ways while being dosed with forkroot, so that she was able to do things that stronger AS (they are stronger since she's under the influence of forkroot) couldn't match. So the display proves nothing.
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