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  #41  
Old 06-22-2012, 07:14 PM
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Elayne's thoughts in ToM: Choosing Enemies

"But what if she gave lands within Andor to some of the Cairhienin nobility? What if she created multiple bonds between their countries? What if she proved that she would not steal their titles - but would instead be willing to give some of them greater holdings? Would that be enough to prove that she didn't intend to steal the lands of the Cairhien nobility and give them to her own people? Would that ease their worries?"

Later Dyelin comments: "A clever maneuver, Your Majesty, but dangerous."

And then Morgase says: "So she made bonds between the two nations."

And Elayne admits that giving Andoran land to a Cairhienin noble has its ramifications: "He gave in because he saw that I was handing him the chance for both thrones.... I've essentially limited my competition. They saw the dragons, and those made them envious. Then I offered them the chance not only to gain access to those weapons, but to double their wealth. And on top of that, I gave them the seed of possibility that one day, they might be named king."

That hardly seems a clever ploy to avoid assassination. It is cementing bonds between two countries.

As to Moiraine being a safe bet to support Elayne, there is no guarantee that Moiraine's or Elayne's successors will continue to be so friendly. Gareth Bryne has fought the Cairhienin; so hostility between the two nations isn't something new. It could flare up in the future; but not if one monarch works to unify the two kingdoms.

Last edited by maleshub; 06-22-2012 at 07:18 PM.
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  #42  
Old 06-22-2012, 10:04 PM
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Elayne did the exact same thing that a large number of English kings did to secure Scotland.

Other than going round and round on this, I dont really see the point of the discussion at this point. Both camps can use the quotes to support their side...only the final book will tell us what happens.

I simply dont see Elayne willingly giving up Cairhien. She'd be far more secure in her rule and secure against the Seanchan by having her own empire.

Appointing Moiraine or Galad as Steward makes far more sense than giving up an entire kingdom.
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  #43  
Old 06-23-2012, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Moiraine ruling Cairhien would not harm this goal at all, and would by far reduce the danger to Elayne from Cairhienin nobles playing Daes Dae'mar.
This is so naive I want to cry. No matter what Elayne does, she is part of Das Dae'mar in Carihein now. Nobles like Lorstrum who gained rich, productive lands in Andor in exchange for supporting her will want her to continue as Queen of both nations, since that means that for their efforts, they can win not one but two thrones. They will not want Moiraine in the throne at all.

And no matter how friendly they may be, the rulers of two nations can't help but end up with situations where there will be competition and rivalry. Take Egwene and Elayne for example. They're great friends who have similar views on almost everything. As rulers of Tar Valon and Andor, though, they're going to have several areas of contention, Elayne's plan for the Kin not least among them.

However good their intention, however great their determination to remain friends, separate rulers of Andor and Cairhein can offer less security and unity for both, against the Seanchan. Hence, Elayne's determination to hold both thrones.
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  #44  
Old 06-23-2012, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Elayne did the exact same thing that a large number of English kings did to secure Scotland.

Other than going round and round on this, I dont really see the point of the discussion at this point. Both camps can use the quotes to support their side...only the final book will tell us what happens.

I simply dont see Elayne willingly giving up Cairhien. She'd be far more secure in her rule and secure against the Seanchan by having her own empire.

Appointing Moiraine or Galad as Steward makes far more sense than giving up an entire kingdom.
Galad as Steward would have a small degree of irony and symbolism. The CoL (WC's is my preferred acronym for them so far) lost the golden sun in Amadicia and gained the Sun Throne in Cairhien, because their LCC is Steward to a "Witch!"
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  #45  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:45 AM
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I was hoping for a really cool Great Game theory. But the title was a bait and switch.

I really couldn't care less if Moiraine takes the throne of Cairhien (although I'm pretty sure Elayne already has). I can't really see RJ hating Moiraine that much though.

I do have a question on the theory: How much of the Cairhienin Queen/King's estates have already been transferred to the Andoran nobility? And vice versa? Elayne already promised some land to Elenia, no? With plans to transfer more? It seems like splitting the kingdoms again among two monarchs would still leave a number of Houses with land in two nations in any case. I can't see Elayne, at least, being okay with foreign nobles (not sworn to her) owning Andoran territory. No matter how much she likes Moiraine.
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  #46  
Old 07-10-2012, 06:38 PM
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Well, I'm firmly at odds with Tevez here. I don't think there is much of chance of Moiraine ruling Cairhein.

We have it from her own mouth she doesn't want to. She'll want to have a life with Thom, I'd expect. Not that she wouldn't be a good queen, she would be. She just doesn't want to be one.

I'd think Galad, Dobraine, or my personal choice, Caraline Damodred, make the most sense. Cadsuane has a bit of a hold on Ailil Riatin, but after he little dagger discussion with Rand lying helpless, I don't think Elayne would trust her, if she ever found out. Caraline, however, IS trustworthy. And Rand, Min, and Cadsuane can all vouch for her. Of course, she is likely going to be in Tear with with her soon to be hubby. So I guess we'll see.

I think Caemlyn will largely be destroyed in the battle and Elayne will rule both nations from the "Court of the Sun" in Cairhien.
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  #47  
Old 07-10-2012, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Angry Druid View Post
I don't think there is much of chance of Moiraine ruling Cairhein.

We have it from her own mouth she doesn't want to.
20 years ago, and for reasons already pointed out to be null and void now.
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  #48  
Old 07-10-2012, 07:50 PM
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And why would Caraline, who will be Queen of Tear, take the job of Steward of Cairhein? She doesn't mind her cousin taking the throne, and she loves Darlin. Why would she want to spend time away from him by "ruling" Cairhein?
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  #49  
Old 07-10-2012, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Angry Druid View Post
We have it from her own mouth she doesn't want to.

She just doesn't want to be one.
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
20 years ago, and for reasons already pointed out to be null and void now.
A more recent hint about Moiraine's preferences after the confinement in the realm of the snakes and foxes.

Quote:
Towers of Midnight: A Rabbit for Supper

"I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon," Moiraine said. "I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come."
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  #50  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:25 PM
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Yes, we all know about that one, but it's hardly strong. She has no reason to believe at that point that there will be anything important for her to do after the Last Battle.
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  #51  
Old 07-11-2012, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, we all know about that one, but it's hardly strong. She has no reason to believe at that point that there will be anything important for her to do after the Last Battle.
Only 5 months before we find out
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  #52  
Old 07-12-2012, 01:14 AM
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No, we can already say for sure that one is not strong, no matter how it turns out. It's not evidence; there are tons of people who think they're going to do one thing and end up doing something else.
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  #53  
Old 07-15-2012, 07:53 AM
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No, we can already say for sure that one is not strong, no matter how it turns out. It's not evidence; there are tons of people who think they're going to do one thing and end up doing something else.
Terez, I may love ya, and I may even lurve you, but Moiraine's a crusading Blue. That's not a good fit for sitting on her ass on a throne. I see Moiraine as the traveling type - hell more so once she learns Traveling, maybe...
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  #54  
Old 07-15-2012, 08:18 AM
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Terez, I may love ya, and I may even lurve you, but Moiraine's a crusading Blue. That's not a good fit for sitting on her ass on a throne. I see Moiraine as the traveling type - hell more so once she learns Traveling, maybe...
Siuan was always the traveling type, hence Moiraine thinking it was ironic that she ended up going off while Siuan got stuck in the Tower. And what better place to crusade as a Blue than from a powerful throne? Blues and politics go hand in hand.
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  #55  
Old 07-15-2012, 12:52 PM
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True, but then was Jordan ret-conning? Siuan is a horrific horse-rider, and I doubt she'd love travel so much if she can barely handle the most common mode of transport. She certainly wouldn't've had access to easier modes of transport (carriage, palanquin) until she became an AS..

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, we can already say for sure that one is not strong, no matter how it turns out. It's not evidence; there are tons of people who think they're going to do one thing and end up doing something else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Siuan was always the traveling type, hence Moiraine thinking it was ironic that she ended up going off while Siuan got stuck in the Tower. And what better place to crusade as a Blue than from a powerful throne? Blues and politics go hand in hand.
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  #56  
Old 07-15-2012, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkersedai View Post
True, but then was Jordan ret-conning? Siuan is a horrific horse-rider, and I doubt she'd love travel so much if she can barely handle the most common mode of transport.
When she was dreaming about it, it was all about the places, for her. And she imagined taking ships to far-away places, and we know she can handle those. But now that she finally has the freedom to do it, she can use Traveling.
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
When she was dreaming about it, it was all about the places, for her. And she imagined taking ships to far-away places, and we know she can handle those. But now that she finally has the freedom to do it, she can use Traveling.
Providing she has an angreal or she gets healed to full by a man.
Obviously the second option is pretty likely.
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  #58  
Old 07-15-2012, 04:48 PM
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The second option is not likely at all, as Brandon says she doesn't want to do it. But she does have a sa'angreal. She might not get to keep it, but Egwene did promise her an angreal at least.
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  #59  
Old 07-15-2012, 07:34 PM
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Do you think women need angreal in order to determine their own lives? Sigh

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The second option is not likely at all, as Brandon says she doesn't want to do it. But she does have a sa'angreal. She might not get to keep it, but Egwene did promise her an angreal at least.
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  #60  
Old 07-15-2012, 07:50 PM
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No. Just to Travel. (If they're not strong enough.) And Moiraine has one too, so it's only fair.
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