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  #1  
Old 07-12-2012, 02:57 PM
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I have been resistant to the idea that Cyndane would return to the Light, partly because of things that RJ has said about her outside the books, about her being ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled, etc. But a few things make me wonder (some of which are common arguments), and I came across a Lanfear article that bossman started writing a few months back and it got me to thinking again.

1. She might have special, useful knowledge about the Bore.

2. It might make Rand feel better about not being able to make himself kill her.

3. Rand is supposed to serve her and die, and serve still, somehow or another. It would be nice if he wasn't serving the Shadow's purpose even after death, and if he is, it's hard to see how that would be considered serving Cyndane, seeing as how she's mindtrapped.

4. One might say that her turning back was foreshadowed in the same book as that Dark Prophecy. Ingtar is the only person in the series we know of to have sincerely done that, unless you count Verin. (Res's thread reminded me of that.)

5. Some say "A Memory of Light" is a reference to this. I figure it's probably a reference to a lot of things, but this could be one of them.

I'm still not exactly sold on the idea but I think I'm a little less opposed to it than I was before my reread.
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Old 07-12-2012, 03:11 PM
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She also spent time planning how to overthrow the Dark One. Not really for altruistic means, but its a source of a plan aside from hoping that Min puzzles something out of philosophy books. I'm not sure if I like that as an idea or not, but it's worth considering (if a bit Deus ex Machina, it's really no less than a Min epiphany would be).
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:04 PM
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Well, it's not precisely deus ex machina if it's foreshadowed. At least, that's what Brandon says. Also, I didn't imagine she'd be the be-all end-all for the Bore; I imagine she will contribute a bit, if it comes to that, but others will be important too.

And add "Moiraine learned something from the 'Finns" to the list of "that would be lame" solutions to the problem.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:26 PM
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Well, it's not precisely deus ex machina if it's foreshadowed. At least, that's what Brandon says. Also, I didn't imagine she'd be the be-all end-all for the Bore; I imagine she will contribute a bit, if it comes to that, but others will be important too.

And add "Moiraine learned something from the 'Finns" to the list of "that would be lame" solutions to the problem.
Lanfear has never been the most dedicated follower of the Shadow. All of them are completely self-absorbed save Moridin, but she always seemed to be the least loyal (maybe because she...mentioned it ).

That said, I can't quite foresee what her re-turning would be like. She's so selfish that I can't suddenly imagine her having an epiphany of compassion. Well...unless she does it as a final gesture for Rand to set herself up as his martyr.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:26 PM
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Well, it's not precisely deus ex machina if it's foreshadowed. At least, that's what Brandon says. Also, I didn't imagine she'd be the be-all end-all for the Bore; I imagine she will contribute a bit, if it comes to that, but others will be important too.
I'm picturing a Rand/Min/Lanfear scene, and I think I like it. Isn't it telling that Lanfear didn't remove Min's skin when she was having close, personal naked time with him? I think she even knew at that point that Rand was dreaming about Min.

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And add "Moiraine learned something from the 'Finns" to the list of "that would be lame" solutions to the problem.
Bleh, my fun mental image is fading fast.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:29 PM
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Lanfear has never been the most dedicated follower of the Shadow. All of them are completely self-absorbed save Moridin, but she always seemed to be the least loyal (maybe because she...mentioned it ).

That said, I can't quite foresee what her re-turning would be like. She's so selfish that I can't suddenly imagine her having an epiphany of compassion. Well...unless she does it as a final gesture for Rand to set herself up as his martyr.
I don't see it as being particularly compassionate. More like, realizing she signed up for something incredibly stupid. More repentant than compassionate.
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Old 07-12-2012, 04:52 PM
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I don't see it as being particularly compassionate. More like, realizing she signed up for something incredibly stupid. More repentant than compassionate.
More like "this isn't fun any more" than anything else if the end of TOM is anything to go on. I don't even think she'd be that repentant; just upset about being tortured and a slave. My first thought on reading that scene was that Rand was going to do something stupid, run off half-cocked and get himself killed. But I no longer think that can happen given how much needs to happen in Caemlyn. Unless he learns that she is in Caemlyn, but I prefer the idea that Elayne is the bait in that particular trap for him. Of course, that isn't to say there only needs to be one piece of bait in the trap.

I rather think that her, Moiraine, and Min might all hold individual pieces of the puzzle on how to seal - heal? - the bore, perhaps along with Rand. Or they'll work out how Rand has to do whatever it is he has to do (Hey baby, can you bleed like me?).

I'm glad to see that you have finally come around to realise that Cyndane is the only character who can be the Daughter of the Night, Terez.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:18 PM
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Terez, I'm not sure if you include this in your #4, but there are also her "we can defeat the Dark One together" pleas to Rand which could be seen as foreshadowing for ... defeating the Dark One together.
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:58 PM
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A major theme of the books is redemption, so I could see Cyndane turning on the DO, not for the sake of the light, but because she was ill-treated.

However, with that being said, I would say that Lanfear was and is (as Cyndane) a narcissist and her reasons for going to the shadow in the first place are well known: power and LTT.

The question then becomes what power would she accept to turn her back on the DO. She already showed a willingness to do so with the CK provided that Rand join with her, once again affirming her two base desires.

It is unlikely that Rand will form a union with her, even a pretend one, but she may delude herself into thinking if Rand frees her then she has the opportunity to be with him.

That only leaves the power aspect and what she could gain by betrying the DO. Could she gain anything? The light side forces would not accept her and it is unlikely that she would survive her betrayal in the first place.

That leads to two scenarios in my mind:

1. She uncharacteristically helps Rand, and is shortly after destroyed (this is the potentially problematic Deus Ex Machina).

2. Rejects Rand and is destroyed by his hand or perhaps Nynaeve.
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:11 PM
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... and I came across a Lanfear article that bossman started writing a few months back and it got me to thinking again.
"started writing" implies unposted theory? Or something available for all to peruse?
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:12 PM
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That only leaves the power aspect and what she could gain by betrying the DO. Could she gain anything?
Existence. Keep in mind that Ishamael seems to be the only one that realizes that utter Nothingness is the DO's goal. If she learned that supporting the DO simply meant her own annihilation and could not result in any positive outcomes, she would gain infinitely by betraying the DO. Even if this thread ends up with a broken mindtrap as a result. Heck, the could even request that Rand balefire her if killing or otherwise overthrowing the DO isn't possible, just to keep her out of his grasp this turning.
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:29 PM
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Who could be the most powerful person alive? The one who ALLOWS the Dragon to win against the DO. In her quirkly little head, he cannot do it alone. Her power in the world structure would be cemented if she is the one, the only one, that helps Rand and appears to be returning to the Light. The Dragon dies in the process of defeating the DO (all the prophecies say so, right ) which leaves her as the surviving savior of the world, right? AND she finally wins over the Dragon, he would have to admit he needed her above anyone else. Dunno. The RJ comments below reinforce the idea she is selfish beyond changing for the sake of actually doing the "right" thing.

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Interview: Feb 1st, 1994
Letter to Carolyn Fusinato (Verbatim)
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Now about how evil the Forsaken are. I'm not really sure you define evil. Part of what I am writing about is just how ordinary evil is. In many ways, without the One Power, the Forsaken would be no more than Darkfriends, though perhaps a bit more than ordinary. True, their callousness toward the pain, suffering, even death of ordinary people, and the way they submerge everything and everyone in their own quest for power—and true immortality—their willingness to deliver the world to the Dark One in that quest, are shared by many who do not have their powers. The point is that they are human; they haven't gotten rid of human emotions, or human weaknesses except for a few physical ones. They are not gods, nor even demi-gods, though they seek to be and think they already are. But believe me, there is nothing they will not do to achieve their goals, no price too high to pay—especially if it is paid by someone else, or millions of someone elses. And Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love—not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted—wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.
Personally, I always saw Moridin as the one who in the end will make a decision as to who ultimately will win and changes sides to solidfy his own place in the world.

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On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon, now. ... It was very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board. Moridin laughed so hard that tears rolled down his face, but he was not aware of them.
Eh, I would be disappoionted if Cyndane changed sides but it cannot be entirely dismissed. Moridin? Much more interesting.
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:08 PM
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I have been resistant to the idea that Cyndane would return to the Light, partly because of things that RJ has said about her outside the books, about her being ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled, etc. But a few things make me wonder (some of which are common arguments), and I came across a Lanfear article that bossman started writing a few months back and it got me to thinking again.

1. She might have special, useful knowledge about the Bore.

2. It might make Rand feel better about not being able to make himself kill her.

3. Rand is supposed to serve her and die, and serve still, somehow or another. It would be nice if he wasn't serving the Shadow's purpose even after death, and if he is, it's hard to see how that would be considered serving Cyndane, seeing as how she's mindtrapped.

4. One might say that her turning back was foreshadowed in the same book as that Dark Prophecy. Ingtar is the only person in the series we know of to have sincerely done that, unless you count Verin. (Res's thread reminded me of that.)

5. Some say "A Memory of Light" is a reference to this. I figure it's probably a reference to a lot of things, but this could be one of them.

I'm still not exactly sold on the idea but I think I'm a little less opposed to it than I was before my reread.
The problem I have with this idea is Shaidar Haran's comments to Graendal when he took her:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Towers of Midnight, Epilogue - And After
She licked her lips again. Her entire mouth had gone dry. There had to be a way out. "I have a better plan, more bold. You will be impressed. Al'Thor thinks I am dead, and so I can-"

"No." Such a quiet voice, but so horrible. Graendal found she could not speak. Something had taken her voice. "No," Shaidar Haran continued. "This opportunity has been given to another. But Graendal, you shall not be forgotten."
I think Lanfear is a plant, she appeared deliberately in Rand's dream. A trap for Rand and I do not see her being able to turn now that she has been mindtrapped...

How do you think she would effect a turning from the shadow since she is mindtrapped? Do you have some reason to believe it can be broken or gotten around?
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:50 PM
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How do you think she would effect a turning from the shadow since she is mindtrapped? Do you have some reason to believe it can be broken or gotten around?
Mindtrap doesn't physically confine her actions unless it's broken. If someone can get the cage away from Moridin, she doesn't even have to worry about that possibility.

I do agree that Moridin's statement is telling, and that was my first thought on reading ToM (putting that statement together with Lanfear at the end). The question, I suppose, is can Moridin see what she's thinking when she talks to Rand in dreams? If not, it is a chance for her to betray the Shadow without openly risking being seen as a traitor. But the likelihood of that is low if, as some have theorized, she is only appearing in Rand's dreams due to his link with Moridin, which would imply Moridin would be aware and possibly monitoring said dream(s).

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Old 07-13-2012, 07:09 PM
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I do agree that Moridin's statement is telling, and that was my first thought on reading ToM (putting that statement together with Lanfear at the end). The question, I suppose, is can Moridin see what she's thinking when she talks to Rand in dreams? If not, it is a chance for her to betray the Shadow without openly risking being seen as a traitor. But the likelihood of that is low if, as some have theorized, she is only appearing in Rand's dreams due to his link with Moridin, which would imply Moridin would be aware and possibly monitoring said dream(s).
Moridin did not make that statement, Shaidar Haran did.

I doubt she is appearing because of any supposed link with Moridin, I would bank more on the massive amounts of Taint that is in his brain or even on Lanfear's claims that she can get through his warding anyway. Conversely, this could be an intentional plan and she appeared there because of such. Her comment about the shadow that lurks in every man's mind tend to make me lean more towards Taint stain than the Moridin angle. However, I do not believe she was there accidentally.

Moghedian was worried that she would be late because of her attempt to kill Nyn. She felt Moridin caressing her mindtrap from that far away. I do not know if it conveys any thought reading abilities or not, and what you purpose may be a work around. Considering how fragile the cage is, and the likelihood of a confrontation, I would not assume the traps would survive Moridin however.

In any event, I do not believe she will come "back to the light." I think Shaidar Haran's comments show that her appearance is a deliberate plan to ensnare Rand into something.

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Mindtrap doesn't physically confine her actions unless it's broken. If someone can get the cage away from Moridin, she doesn't even have to worry about that possibility.
Do you have any source for your suppositions on what all a mindtrap can do or confines?
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:16 PM
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Moridin did not make that statement, Shaidar Haran did.
And all the available evidence makes it clear he was talking about Demandred.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:33 PM
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I suggested a Lanfear/Cyndane redemption a while back, in the "serve her and die" thread and some of you nearly took my head off.
(I exaggerated that bit for dramatic effect)
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
And add "Moiraine learned something from the 'Finns" to the list of "that would be lame" solutions to the problem.
A thought that might be supportive of your opinion here is Min's viewing: She states multiple times that Rand can not win without the help of a woman who was dead and gone. Her only viewing that 'failed.' She obviously thinks that woman is Moiraine, but what if it is Lanfear? Lanfear 'died' at the same time that Moiraine 'died'... something to keep in mind. Similar to Rand's misbelief that the two merge into one is in regards to him and LTT. I dont particularly like this approach personally.


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And all the available evidence makes it clear he was talking about Demandred.
Can you please explain your opinion? General sweeping statements concerning your opinion are not evidence. What evidence makes it "clear" who Shaidar Haran was referring to when he said the opportunity has been given to another? Please provide some of your so-called 'evidence' pointing to Demandred.
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Last edited by Ieyasu; 07-13-2012 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:47 PM
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Does transmigrating include any safeguards for the DO to control the soul? Since the soul is being put into a puppet does the DO retain the puppet masters strings so to speak? By that I mean to ask can Cyndane rebel against her master now that she has been transmigrated? Alternatively, does the DO gain insight into their minds but does not exert any more control than he does over any other normal person?
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Old 07-14-2012, 11:17 PM
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And all the available evidence makes it clear he was talking about Demandred.

Has to be Demandred. He's wanted to kill Rand forever and seems to have made the most progress for the Shadow so it's plausible that Moridin would give him the honor
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