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  #21  
Old 10-28-2009, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the silent speaker
I don't think Rand was whiny. Fanatical, creepy as six kinds of swear, but not so much whiny as the opposite of that.
Yeah, "whiny" was the wrong word. But I stand by my Potter comparison.
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  #22  
Old 10-31-2009, 01:32 PM
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Boy, are some of you people picky. I thought that BS did an amazing job. I considered his continuity of characters was amazingly good considering that they had not been a part of his thinking for over 15 years.

I was just thrilled to read the book and see the plot get further down the road.

Why are people fussing about how Graendal was destroyed? I cannot understand it! Nuking her with enough balefire to drive her acts in the pattern back a considerable time and then test to see if the compulsion was gone was absolutely brilliant. Yes, Tam, she is dead, dead, dead.

I was surprised about the way that Moridin interfered with Semirhaghe's little torture scene with Rand. That was completely understandable to me. Moridin had already shown that he was in pain from the loss of Rand's hand. He was obviously in pain from the torture being imposed by Semi. He interfered because of his pain and because Semi was disobeying his strict orders.

Yes, being balefired by TP does exactly the same thing that being balefired by the OP does. However, all it would do is remove the pain and bruises from Min's neck at most. It would not change the memories of either of them. Also notice that the balefire stream did not vaporize the wall behind her or Elza. This suggests that the amount of time removed in the Pattern was very brief by comparison to that of Rahvin or Graendal.

I am inclined to agree with Belazamon that we do not have a well constructed version of the construct theory. A theory that I agree with in spirit if not all of the details of definition.

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  #23  
Old 10-31-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Alethinos
Why are people fussing about how Graendal was destroyed? I cannot understand it! Nuking her with enough balefire to drive her acts in the pattern back a considerable time and then test to see if the compulsion was gone was absolutely brilliant. Yes, Tam, she is dead, dead, dead.
One word. Anticlimax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4A
I was surprised about the way that Moridin interfered with Semirhaghe's little torture scene with Rand. That was completely understandable to me. Moridin had already shown that he was in pain from the loss of Rand's hand. He was obviously in pain from the torture being imposed by Semi. He interfered because of his pain and because Semi was disobeying his strict orders.
I'm still not convinced that was Moridin interfering, at least not directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4A
Yes, being balefired by TP does exactly the same thing that being balefired by the OP does. However, all it would do is remove the pain and bruises from Min's neck at most. It would not change the memories of either of them. Also notice that the balefire stream did not vaporize the wall behind her or Elza. This suggests that the amount of time removed in the Pattern was very brief by comparison to that of Rahvin or Graendal.
Yeah, but my whole point was that the bruises did not fade. In fact:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS p.355
"What are you saying, Rand?" Min asked. She rubbed her neck again. Bruises were beginning to show.
At the very least, I would expect those bruises to be gone/nonexistant, not just starting to appear. It could easily be a BS slip-up, I'm not denying that - it's just a little odd.
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  #24  
Old 10-31-2009, 02:55 PM
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Personally I think that Graendal's death was done reasonably well. When she first started her plot with Sammael she though she was a lot smarter that him and maybe she was but she was being over complicated and he just flat out lied to her in a convincing way and trapped her into being his allie.

Flash forward a few books and Grandal is being over complicated again. She probably thinks she is mentally a lot sharper that Rand/LTT but she underestimated the simple approach.

It might have been nice to have a pov from her after Rand's messanger was compelled showing what she was planning to do etc only to have the fort nuked. I think that when he was asked about how Sammael died he made a point of saying that the forsaken were not deserving of dramatic death's.
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  #25  
Old 10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
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Rand's throttling of Min was an indirect action of Semirhage. That's why balefire didn't fix it.
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  #26  
Old 11-01-2009, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand's throttling of Min was an indirect action of Semirhage. That's why balefire didn't fix it.
Eh. I can see that too, it still just seems a little too directly caused by Semi. If BS said that was the reason, I'd be okay with it, I suppose. ~shrug~

It may very well be another example of how anti-intuitive balefire can be, or it may be a screw-up. It was just something that I found odd enough to jerk me out of the moment and question it - and usually I don't do that with odd BF effects.
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  #27  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand's throttling of Min was an indirect action of Semirhage. That's why balefire didn't fix it.
I a wondering about this. There was a part where balefire removing actions was mentioned later in the book, and Min moves her hand to her throat, reminded of the bruises (hint that things are not right?). So, was Semirhage balefired or not? I am not so sure about the indirect actions here. If Rand was not collared...

Also, in order not to be resurrected, he would need to balefire Semirhage back a bit in time.

But the AS with Warders were still tied up, and ones without remained dead (I think... I will need to reread that part). The balefire did not reverse their actions. Noone outside the room mentions any actions being reversed, or feeling that the pattern was changed.

Maybe the DO's balefire works differently. Maybe the DO can choose how far to burn, rather than it being related to the intensity.

(Assuming now that no mistakes were made in writing this scene).

The Mat parts were the least RJ. Mat overshadowed Thom to much. Thom was a wimp.
  #28  
Old 11-01-2009, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tree Brother
But the AS with Warders were still tied up, and ones without remained dead (I think... I will need to reread that part). The balefire did not reverse their actions. Noone outside the room mentions any actions being reversed, or feeling that the pattern was changed.
The sisters that were affected were the ones maintaining Semirhage's shield outside her room. Only one (Daigian) was actually dead - the other two were in trances. That was presumably all carried out by Shaidar Haran because they were like that when Semirhage exited her room after her release and found Elza kneeling there. Thus, since they were dealt with by Shaidar Haran, anything done to them wouldn't have been affected by the balefire.
  #29  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7
Thus, since they were dealt with by Shaidar Haran, anything done to them wouldn't have been affected by the balefire.
I need a re-read already I assume Shaidar Haran nullified the traps and gave Elza the bracelets as well. It just seemed strange to me that they were balefired, but nothing noticeable was reversed.
  #30  
Old 11-01-2009, 10:00 PM
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I've been thinking about the Graendal thing. She put Compulsion on Rama-whatever, so she was there. The only way for her not to be dead is if she Traveled out before he returned to Rand so as not to be there when the balefire hit. If the balefire took the complex back to before the guy met with Graendal at all, the weave would still go byebye, because no complex means Lord Wossname doesn't go and get Compulsioned.

Doable, if she suspected by his emissary's presence that Rand was going to fricassee her imminently... but what then? Her Compulsion disappeared, so the complex was balefired to before she put it on. Which means that it was balefired to before she Traveled away. Which means that she can't have Traveled! The weave she did would have retroactively not worked, because she didn't know the area she was Traveling from anymore. She would have been on the third floor or whatever when Rand turned the place into a crater. Result: splat. Or if not splat, Graendal is at least still on the premises for the tag end of the balefire bomb. Graendal is dead anyway.
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  #31  
Old 11-01-2009, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the silent speaker
I've been thinking about the Graendal thing. She put Compulsion on Rama-whatever, so she was there. The only way for her not to be dead is if she Traveled out before he returned to Rand so as not to be there when the balefire hit. If the balefire took the complex back to before the guy met with Graendal at all, the weave would still go byebye, because no complex means Lord Wossname doesn't go and get Compulsioned.
Heh. You've fallen into the "overanalysing balefire" trap.

I think the only way Graendal can still be alive is if she had someone else put the Compulsion on Ramshalan. The odds of that are an exercise for the reader.
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  #32  
Old 11-01-2009, 10:15 PM
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... If the balefire took the complex back to before the guy met with Graendal at all, the weave would still go byebye, because no complex means Lord Wossname doesn't go and get Compulsioned.

I agreewith Belazamon that you'reover analyzing, but felt I should point out that the complex does not have a thread to be burned out of the pattern because it is not alive.
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  #33  
Old 11-05-2009, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
6) Confirmation that Sheriam was black and Halima was the one punishing her.


So, Sheriam was black and blue all along.

Oh, and Sheriam wins the prize for "lamest reason to join the Black Ajah" award. Political gain??? For someone who was only in it for the power, she was a pretty pathetic figure.
I thought it was interesting. There must have been loads of people who became Darkfriends for frivilous reasons. Without the Dark One or the Forsaken it must have been much like joining a naughty secret society, bad certainly, but not altogether terrifying. Sheriam just joined at the wrong time!
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  #34  
Old 11-06-2009, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Eh. I can see that too, it still just seems a little too directly caused by Semi. If BS said that was the reason, I'd be okay with it, I suppose. ~shrug~

It may very well be another example of how anti-intuitive balefire can be, or it may be a screw-up. It was just something that I found odd enough to jerk me out of the moment and question it - and usually I don't do that with odd BF effects.
It's not a screw-up. Balefire removes things the target did, not things the target caused other people to do. Think back to when Rahvin got burnt out of the pattern. Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean were brought back from the grave, but Rand still had dozens of piranha bites, because erasing Rahvin's actions had no effect on the dream piranhas that came out of Rahvin's mind.
  #35  
Old 11-06-2009, 03:37 AM
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Actually, RJ said that had to do with properties of Tel'aran'rhiod, not indirect actions. Check the interview database.
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