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  #41  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:12 PM
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RJ has confirmed that, actually. You have to be a channeler to use the True Power.
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  #42  
Old 11-02-2009, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Past discussion seem to me to have concluded that the ability to Channel the OP is a prerequisite for Channeling the True Power. Thus "anyone" is an overstatement or lacks a qualifier.
Yes yes, thats what I meant. The point being, anyone capable of channeling is also capable of theoretically accessing the TP.

Of course, there also has to be some other way to do it. Lanfear, as Mierin, accessed the TP without even having faced the Dark One. The notion we get that there was a barrier she bored through to access it supports that. Thus, perhaps it isn't totally out of the question that Rand unwittingly found his way through as well.
  #43  
Old 11-02-2009, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Past discussion seem to me to have concluded that the ability to Channel the OP is a prerequisite for Channeling the True Power. Thus "anyone" is an overstatement or lacks a qualifier.
I took that as a given within the context of the conversation.
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  #44  
Old 11-02-2009, 07:38 PM
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not a Great Hunt. How about a scavenger hunt?
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  #45  
Old 11-02-2009, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
I took that as a given within the context of the conversation.
You know enough about the context to see that. I was relatively certain that "anyone who can channel" was meant, but Noobs might not see that, and it is a misconception I've seen stated before.
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  #46  
Old 11-02-2009, 09:07 PM
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noob?

As in wilders?
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  #47  
Old 11-02-2009, 09:09 PM
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The most interesting bit to me was the final verse. Those are from the Seanchan prophecies, the ones Tuon quotes. (erm, Fortuona I mean) The ones "tainted" by Ishamael.
Does this imply that ole Randyboy will in fact kneal before the Crystal throne? Or am I reading too far into an end-of-book prophecy mention? (Pretty sure this has been disproven by Word of Creator, but what if Ishy actually tainted the RANDland ones, and the Seanchan ones are the correct ones? That'd be fun )
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  #48  
Old 11-02-2009, 09:38 PM
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We know that the Crystal Throne is likely a ter'angreal that causes awe, wide-eyed, mouth-drying awe.

If Rand were to wind up over there it's possible that it could overpower him, causing him to kneel, although, given that it's a book and there are other prophecies involved I can see Rand figuring a way around the device, shutting it off, and then reversing the tide as it were.

There's also something about Rand doing Nine impossible things...and these two events just might be related.
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  #49  
Old 11-02-2009, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Not necessarily. I think thats the most likely possibility, but again, it brings up lots of questions of how the TP functions.

For example, we know that Semi was meant to capture Rand. We also know that anyone can touch the TP, the only obstacle is the DO's permission. Is it not possible the entire situation was a goad, to make Rand touch the TP and thus turn him to the Shadow?
That was certainly how I read it. Moridin/Ishamael seems to believe the war between Light and Shadow follows the same basic rules as the game of sha'rah and so far all the evidence points to him being right. His first resort was to try to take control of the Fisher, ie. turn Rand to the Shadow. When that didn't work he tried to remove the Fisher from the board entirely, culminating in his failed attempt to kill Rand at the end of TDR. That leaves him with only 1 winning strategy: "When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not" (Path of Daggers, "Deceptive Appearances"). Semirhage's attack was likely not meant to succeed, but merely to push Rand into a corner. It is unclear whether the ultimate purpose was to force him to touch the True Power or merely to push him into the mindset of a cold-blooded killer. Either one could qualify as the real-life equivalent of standing on a black square in sha'rah. From there all the Shadow has to do is stand back and watch as Rand's corrupted ta'veren web destroys everything around him.
  #50  
Old 11-02-2009, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless
Semirhage's attack was likely not meant to succeed, but merely to push Rand into a corner.
That's exactly how I read it, even the first time when I only skimmed it in the bookstore right before closing time (well, I would say it succeeded at what it was intended to do, but I think you would too). But I didn't connect it to sha'rah - thanks for bringing up the connection. I did think of Moridin 'playing both sides of the board', but not the actual game play.
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  #51  
Old 11-02-2009, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matoyak
The most interesting bit to me was the final verse. Those are from the Seanchan prophecies, the ones Tuon quotes. (erm, Fortuona I mean) The ones "tainted" by Ishamael.
Does this imply that ole Randyboy will in fact kneal before the Crystal throne? Or am I reading too far into an end-of-book prophecy mention? (Pretty sure this has been disproven by Word of Creator, but what if Ishy actually tainted the RANDland ones, and the Seanchan ones are the correct ones? That'd be fun )
The final quote was from a different collection of Prophecy than the "corrupted" Prophecy. The corruption is a disagreement between the pre-Luthair and Randland version of the KC and the copy Luthair "brought with him."

Luthair could not possibly have had a corrupt copy, so all of those (thousands of) other copies (on two isolated continents) must of course have been wrong.
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  #52  
Old 11-02-2009, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Luthair could not possibly have had a corrupt copy, so all of those (thousands of) other copies (on two isolated continents) must of course have been wrong.
Hehehe, yeah well, it was a joke first and foremost
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  #53  
Old 11-03-2009, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matoyak
Hehehe, yeah well, it was a joke first and foremost
Unfortunately people seem to be arguing for that possibility as a serious argument for Rand having to kneel before the Crystal Throne.
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  #54  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
You know enough about the context to see that. I was relatively certain that "anyone who can channel" was meant, but Noobs might not see that, and it is a misconception I've seen stated before.
Fair enough. I guess it's been so long since we had a good influx of newbies that we could be a bit lax in explaining things sufficiently.
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  #55  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Of course, there also has to be some other way to do it. Lanfear, as Mierin, accessed the TP without even having faced the Dark One. The notion we get that there was a barrier she bored through to access it supports that. Thus, perhaps it isn't totally out of the question that Rand unwittingly found his way through as well.
So far as we know, Mierin were never able to access the TP. They felt some kind of energy source behind the barrier (pattern) and tried to access it, resulting in all kinds of trouble. It seems the DO must grant the use of TP to the wielder, therefor I don't think that he'd just give it away as soon as they bore through to his prison.
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  #56  
Old 11-03-2009, 05:02 AM
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I don't think that access to the True Power is necessarily blocked to those who haven't been granted access. They're just not dumb enough to try to slip that past the Dark One (and in some cases, not dumb enough to risk the damage to body and mind).
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  #57  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I don't think that access to the True Power is necessarily blocked to those who haven't been granted access. They're just not dumb enough to try to slip that past the Dark One (and in some cases, not dumb enough to risk the damage to body and mind).
Mogheiden seems to think TP is only for those he wishes to use it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoS, Chapter 25
The strange shield Shaidar Haran had used on her—Myrddraal could not, but it did—
the shield was not in evidence, yet she did not consider channeling. The True Power was denied her, of
course—that could be drawn only with the Great Lord's blessing—
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoS, Chapter 25
This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. Much more. She knew that some men who
could channel survived in this time aside from al'Thor—this fellow was much of a size with al'Thor.—but she
had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor
. An honor with a bite, as any of the Chosen
knew- In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold
down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to
resist the True Power, not once the saa appeared in your eyes. The final price was different, but no less terrible.
"You have been given distinction greater than yo'u know," she told him. As though her filthy dress was
the finest streith, she took the armchair opposite him. "Bring me some of that wine, and I will tell you. Only
twenty-nine others have ever been granted—"
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  #58  
Old 11-03-2009, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Unfortunately people seem to be arguing for that possibility as a serious argument for Rand having to kneel before the Crystal Throne.
Honestly, though can we really discount this part of the Prophecies? I am not saying that RL Prophecies are necessarily corrupt. Without knowing which parts were corrupted and how, we can only make guesses. I could easily see Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne.

And yes, I know, he is also supposed to bind the nine moons to serve him. And those are about as opposite as leading the spears to war and slaying his people with the sword of peace.
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp
I could easily see Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne.
If he does, then Ishamael wins.

Mention of the Crystal Throne is the key phrase for identifying a corrupted Prophecy. BG Miraj believes that the presence of that key phrase identifies the copy as one conforming to Luthair's "Pure Copy" and therefore "corrupted." We know it is actually the opposite, it identifies a corrupted copy of the KC with some critical pharase replaced by the reference to the Crystal Throne.

The whole point of there being a corrupted prophecy is apparently to subject Rand to a ter'angreal that imposes "Awe" aka Compulsion similar to the "Glamoury" Moggy used on Nyneave and Elayne. A ter'angreal which just happens to be located on the wrong continent for him to be ready for T'G. (a corruption designed at a time when Traveling had been lost and the wrong continent meant several months travel to reposition.)
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  #60  
Old 11-03-2009, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold

The whole point of there being a corrupted prophecy is apparently to subject Rand to a ter'angreal that imposes "Awe" aka Compulsion similar to the "Glamoury" Moggy used on Nyneave and Elayne. A ter'angreal which just happens to be located on the wrong continent for him to be ready for T'G. (a corruption designed at a time when Traveling had been lost and the wrong continent meant several months travel to reposition.)
I disagree. While it might be a stratagem by Ishy when he awoke during Hawkwing's time, it's by no means assured.

Why couldn't it be much more likely that as the Seanchan began to expand their holdings against the patchwork of kingdoms that were on the western continent, they deliberately fabricated this prophecy? They never knew Shadowspawn. A few hundred years in, they might have wanted a little extra legitimacy, and the only thing everyone agreed upon was the Dragon would be Reborn. They probably thought the Last Battle a myth, and as a means of assuring their control, spread this false line that the savior of mankind would be subservient to the Crystal Throne? They've been in complete control of Seanchan for either a hundred or three hundred years (forget which it is), more than enough time to burn all the older copies.

And again, its probably possible to resist the Crystal Throne. I doubt its Compulsion, or not anything particularly strong. Rand would certainly not kneel without holding the Power... and shouldn't that be enough to protect him?
 


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