art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7652

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:53 PM
AbbeyRoad's Avatar
AbbeyRoad AbbeyRoad is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia
Posts: 625
AbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant future
Default

Wouldn't LT's memories let Rand know where the TP comes from, now that he's integrated and has all (or most) of the memories? I know that LT himself never channeled it, but from the voice, it seems pretty obvious that LT knows what it is and where it comes from.
__________________
“I would not mind you in my head if you were not so clearly insane.”
— Lews Therin Telamon to Rand al'Thor

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I ever met."
— Abraham Lincoln

Draw a crazy picture, write a nutty poem. Sing a mumble-gumble song, whistle through your comb. Do a loony-goony dance 'cross the kitchen floor. Put something silly in the world that ain't been there before.
  #62  
Old 11-15-2009, 07:02 PM
ZaderGru ZaderGru is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 29
ZaderGru is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I think he knows quite well that his True Power access had to do with the link with Moridin. He saw his face as he accessed it, and said 'It's HIM.' There's no reason to think he believed it had anything to do with being ta'veren, at least directly.
Even without the link Rand may have been able to access The TP.


Quote:
A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.
The DO already knows what would have happened if "The Dragon" was allowed to kill Min, and I believe it would have been an instant loss for the DO.
I am surprised Semi did not realise this as well, but she might have still been out of sorts from being captured.
  #63  
Old 11-15-2009, 07:08 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad
Wouldn't LT's memories let Rand know where the TP comes from, now that he's integrated and has all (or most) of the memories? I know that LT himself never channeled it, but from the voice, it seems pretty obvious that LT knows what it is and where it comes from.
Rand himself remembered what it was in Knife of Dreams:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can’t think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father’s farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond’s Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?

Oh, Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #64  
Old 11-15-2009, 07:09 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaderGru
Even without the link Rand may have been able to access The TP.
Maybe, but we're talking about Rand knowing that his access came through the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZG
The DO already knows what would have happened if "The Dragon" was allowed to kill Min, and I believe it would have been an instant loss for the DO.
Why would it have been an instant loss for him?
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #65  
Old 11-15-2009, 08:17 PM
nameless nameless is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,254
nameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant future
Default

I'm not convinced the TP access was a result of the link to Moridin. I'm not convinced it wasn't, either, but look at the order of events in that scene.

1) Rand is denied access to saidin by the domination band.
2) Rand hits rock bottom emotionally as he is forced to assault Min.
3) Rand becomes aware of the True Power.
4) Rand reaches for the True Power.
5) Rand becomes aware of Moridin's face.
6) Rand connects to the True Power.

This could be a case of misdirection through post hoc ergo propter hoc but it seems that Rand's emotional state is what allowed him to access TP and the heightened awareness of Moridin through the link was a result of that access rather than the cause.
  #66  
Old 11-15-2009, 08:24 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Well, we know that he at the very least had to have the Dark One's permission to use it, so it's not just a result of his emotional state. I think that the Dark One was aware of him using it, and approved, but I think that the link was what allowed Rand to sense it.

In any case, again, we're not discussing how he was able to access it, but why he thinks he was able to access it.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #67  
Old 11-16-2009, 02:15 AM
Frenzy's Avatar
Frenzy Frenzy is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 2,982
Frenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond reputeFrenzy has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Frenzy Send a message via Yahoo to Frenzy
Default

The TP requires the DO's permission. Given.

The TP has been denied to everyone except Moridin. Given.

So how did Rand channel the TP? Do you honestly think the DO allowed it? A more plausible explanation is that Moridin pulled the TP from the DO (the only person currently granted that permission), and Rand somehow snatched it from/through Moridin. Moridin acted as the middle-man, no pun intended. Perhaps that degree of separation is enough to shield the weavings of the TP from the DO, so that Rand can use it to do whatever he wants without the DO knowing about it.

Throw Callandor into that mix, and things can REALLY get interesting.
__________________
"But don't mention the cucumbers or Frenzy will get mad. And mad Frenzy is creative. -- yks

"How the hell do you Godwin a thread with CUCUMBERS!!?" -- Tru

"I love cucumber prawn... " -- Ivhon

"Have to catch me first. Scared shitless always outruns mad as hell." -- Sinistrum

"Some days I'm happy Frenzy doesn't live next door." -- Tamyrlin

"So Frenzy is a scientist then?" -- Davian
"Well duh. An Evil scientist. " -- Khoram
  #68  
Old 11-16-2009, 02:47 AM
Yuri33 Yuri33 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 500
Yuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really nice
Default

If the link with Moridin is Rand's access to the TP, then in order to deny Rand the DO must deny Moridin as well. If the DO isn't willing to cut off his Nae'blis, then Rand will continue to have access to the TP, regardless of that whole "you wanting and the DO letting you" stuff.
  #69  
Old 11-16-2009, 03:14 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenzy
The TP requires the DO's permission. Given.

The TP has been denied to everyone except Moridin. Given.

So how did Rand channel the TP? Do you honestly think the DO allowed it?
Well, I was under the impression that BS further emphasized that the Dark One's permission is required, in the last few days (working on filling out the interview database tonight, and I'm not done yet but I've already come across one quote where BS reiterates this). I'm guessing that the Dark One believes it is advantageous for him, for Rand to use it, perhaps because it saddles Rand with that shadow he's carrying around now. Dark influence or something.

I do agree that Moridin was the middle man though.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #70  
Old 11-16-2009, 08:07 AM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,122
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I think that the DO (i.e SH) went into that plan with two possible outcomes and that both were victories.

1. Rand is bound by Semi, kills Min and all his friends and is then brought to Shayol Ghul as a prisoner (who is quite mad with grief BTW).

2. Rand uses the TP, kills Semi (who is punished for her failure/disobaying of orders) and is forever tainted by his use of the DO's power.

Both were acceptable outcomes and both were clear victories for Rand. Unless, of course, you don't think Rand's actions were completely tainted from his usage of the TP on.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #71  
Old 11-16-2009, 12:16 PM
DahLliA's Avatar
DahLliA DahLliA is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 2,097
DahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant futureDahLliA has a brilliant future
Send a message via MSN to DahLliA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
I think that the DO (i.e SH) went into that plan with two possible outcomes and that both were victories.

1. Rand is bound by Semi, kills Min and all his friends and is then brought to Shayol Ghul as a prisoner (who is quite mad with grief BTW).

2. Rand uses the TP, kills Semi (who is punished for her failure/disobaying of orders) and is forever tainted by his use of the DO's power.

Both were acceptable outcomes and both were clear victories for Rand. Unless, of course, you don't think Rand's actions were completely tainted from his usage of the TP on.
I agree with the whole thing being planned from the DO's side. SH releasing semi, semi stealing the male a'dam from caddy which is quite likely to piss off rand(and it did). semi then puts rand in a box(chains him) and forces him to kill min. and then he just happens to find the TP to get free. pretty sure the DO planned it all and dangled the TP in front of rand the moment he was ready to accept any power to stop what was happening.

I also think the DO influenced rand's decision to become harder. which led to him banishing caddy(who's still important in preparing rand for the last battle) and scaring everyone around him even more so they'd stop helping him. it also led to tuon refusing a truce(pretty sure she would have accepted it if rand didn't scare the crap out of her with his dark aura and cold eyes).

so all in all. even with semi BF'd it was still a huge victory for the DO making rand even more(or would that be less) emo
__________________
The Llama
The Warden of the West, the Lighthouse Keeper, Creator of Too Much Pizza

"'Profound... huh.' Temper was silent for a long moment, studying the cobbles of the alley mouth. And then he lifted his helmed head, faced Shadowthrone, and said, 'Fuck off.'"
  #72  
Old 11-16-2009, 12:21 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,845
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Frankly, I don't think that the DO planned it in quite that much detail. Killing Min was a spur of the moment decision, brought on by the knife that she threw.
Without that, Semirhage might have done as she had been told to do, and brought Rand chained into the Pit of Doom. Which would probably have been all right, as far as the DO was concerned.
  #73  
Old 11-16-2009, 03:48 PM
Matoyak's Avatar
Matoyak Matoyak is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas - USA
Posts: 1,355
Matoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Frankly, I don't think that the DO planned it in quite that much detail. Killing Min was a spur of the moment decision, brought on by the knife that she threw.
Without that, Semirhage might have done as she had been told to do, and brought Rand chained into the Pit of Doom. Which would probably have been all right, as far as the DO was concerned.
I agree. I'm personally not convinced that the DO planned for Rand magically being able to get the True Power because of threat due to Min which just happened to have been brought on by Semi happening to get supermad at Min for throwing a knife at her. Too convoluted. I think the DO just wanted Rand in chains, and any other pain caused is just bonus.
__________________
*Official Labrat of the TCA*
The Red Hand of Devil's End, the Blight of Bayside, the Filer of Forbidden Texts

[Gawyn] probably pops his collar. - Kivo
Mat's hat is a Darkfriend. - Daekyras

Last edited by Matoyak; 11-16-2009 at 04:29 PM.
  #74  
Old 11-16-2009, 04:25 PM
Belazamon's Avatar
Belazamon Belazamon is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: West Springfield, MA
Posts: 2,309
Belazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant futureBelazamon has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Belazamon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Well, I was under the impression that BS further emphasized that the Dark One's permission is required, in the last few days (working on filling out the interview database tonight, and I'm not done yet but I've already come across one quote where BS reiterates this).
Just looking through the interviews page (kudos, by the way), and I found a relevant quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murienn
The True Power is *usually* not able to be used without the DO's consent. Semirhage certainly thought that the DO intentionally betrayed her.
Of course, as I mentioned there, I think this adds quite a bit of fuel to the "oops, I thought I was giving permission to Moridin!" faction.
__________________
Stating your opinion as a fact doesn't make it any less your opinion.

No one cares, no one sympathizes
You just stand around and play synthesizers
  #75  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:01 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Yeah, I thought about that last night as I was putting it in...which was after I made that post - that post was the straw that broke the camel's back and made me finally get around to updating the database, even though I really didn't have time....and by the time I was done I was too braindead to remember the question that inspired me in the first place....
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #76  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:11 PM
Spasmodean Spasmodean is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 252
Spasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really nice
Default

So - Going down the route of Rand accessing the TP through Moridin, is it safe to assume that Moridin knows or is aware of what Rand did with it?
  #77  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:18 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Yeah, I'd say so. I'm still not convinced it wasn't planned, by Moridin and Shaidar Haran together. It goes along too well with Moridin's orders to Graendal.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #78  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:32 PM
crue crue is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 68
crue is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Of course it was planned. It is unreasonable that SH would show up, free Semi, and then leave her alone to do an incredibly important task, hoping she would get it right. She has already failed once, she probably isn't going to succeed this time.

If the DO wanted Rand captured, Rand would have been captured.

By the way, has anyone seen a channeler being able to sense Shaidar Haran? He's shadowspawn, so any channeler should be able to sense him. If not, what a great tool he would have been to help capture Rand.
  #79  
Old 11-16-2009, 06:38 PM
Spasmodean Spasmodean is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 252
Spasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crue
If the DO wanted Rand captured, Rand would have been captured.
I disagree. Moridin/Ishy has been trying to capture Rand for a while now.
So has Lanfear, Mesaana, and now Semirhage.

If Semi had left Min tied up in air and whisked Rand through a gateway to Shayol Ghul things would have been peachy and all would have been forgiven between her and the DO.

But no, she had to have one last play with her dollies and got herself toasted thanks to her inability to suppress her own vices/impulses.

I personally see the mission, her Last Chance as an unexpected failure.

Either that - or Shaidar Haran is in league with Demandred behind Moridin's back.
  #80  
Old 11-16-2009, 07:06 PM
crue crue is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 68
crue is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

If she was meant to succeed, Shaidar Haran would have stuck around and helped. Based on her past failures, if capturing Rand was important, she would have had help from SH. I mean, Shaidar Haran was right there. Why on Earth would he leave such an important task in the hands of someone who failed so miserably before?

The whole thing seems like a setup to emotionally hurt Rand, get Rand to channel the TP.
 

Tags
rand/moridin, true power


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.