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  #241  
Old 06-20-2012, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
I doubt it because of her feelings in New Spring. Perhaps she will "get over it" when she sees Elayne on a throne as a AS and no riots/wars starting over it, but that is only one reason I doubt it.
Her feelings in New Spring were more complex than most seem to realize. Her main reasons for not wanting to take the throne are irrelevant now.

Quote:
My main reason for doubting it is that Moiraine is with Thom now, and neither of them are homebodies.
Thom is a Court Bard; I can't see why you think he would be uncomfortable staying in one place when he did it for years in Caemlyn with no problems.

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I see much traveling
This is so cliché it makes me want to puke.

Quote:
Besides I think Elayne is going to hold on to Cairhien anyway, making it a moot point for Moiraine even if she does survive... I am not sure I have read anything more than you wanting Moiraine to rule Cairhien, how exactly do you explain Elaye passing that throne over to her? she just says "OMG MOIRAINE YOU ARE BACK!!! IVE HEARD SO MUCH ABOUT YOU & YOU ARE AWESOMESAUCE PLEASE COME LEAD ONE OF MY COUNTRIES FOR ME!!!!"
Elayne only agreed to take the Sun Throne as a favor to Rand; it would never have occurred to her otherwise. And I don't think it's an accident that it was put off for so long, either. Or that she has not yet had a coronation.
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  #242  
Old 06-20-2012, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Her feelings in New Spring were more complex than most seem to realize. Her main reasons for not wanting to take the throne are irrelevant now.
Hense why I put this as only a Lesser reason...

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Originally Posted by terez
Thom is a Court Bard; I can't see why you think he would be uncomfortable staying in one place when he did it for years in Caemlyn with no problems.
Thom was a court bard, and he lost that position because he ran off to handle something else (owen) and talked shit to the queen when he came home.

I do not know why you seem to think the fact that he stopped traveling to stick around Andor for a couple years before moving on again is indicative that he will ever settle down in any one place for long... Can you explain to me why staying in Caemlyn a few years before resuming his traveling ways some how means he may settle down somewhere else permenantly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by terez
This is so cliché it makes me want to puke.
A woman who has spent over 20 years traveling just on one blue quest? You think she will settle down now? I do not see anything in Moiraine to indicate that she will suddenly up and stop her traveling ways. I guess you can always have a puking fit when she doesnt get a throne...

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Originally Posted by terez
Elayne only agreed to take the Sun Throne as a favor to Rand; it would never have occurred to her otherwise. And I don't think it's an accident that it was put off for so long, either. Or that she has not yet had a coronation.
I do not agree with this at all. Elayne took the Sun throne on her own, just as she took the Lion throne. whats the quote she had about the sun throne? Her exact positions was made clear when she said she has some claim to the Sun throne and will make her claim if she chooses to, not because Rand hands it to her... Exactly the same thing she said about Andor. How can you say she only took it as a favor to Rand? She made her own claim and TOOK that throne just as she made her claim and TOOK the lion throne.

She did not want to even give Perrin lands she hasnt controlled in generations, I do not see her giving Moiraine an entire throne. At this point she has already accepted the throne, has already swapped lands and titles with some nobles on both sides of the boarders etc... can you please explain to me how you see her passing her throne to Moiraine? You have not explained how you propose this to happen...
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  #243  
Old 06-20-2012, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Thom was a court bard, and he lost that position because he ran off to handle something else (owen) and talked shit to the queen when he came home.
No, he's still a Court Bard. He's Elayne's, in both Caemlyn and Cairhien.

Quote:
I do not know why you seem to think the fact that he stopped traveling to stick around Andor for a couple years before moving on again is indicative that he will ever settle down in any one place for long...
I don't see why you believe he has an urge to travel that isn't rooted in his attempt to stay ahead of the warrants for his arrest. I can provide evidence that he has no problem staying in one place, for many years in Caemlyn, and again in Tear when Moiraine had to root him out bodily. In fact, Moiraine thinks it's funny (and arrogance) that he kept his own name when he was so well-known in Caemlyn. Furthermore, a Court-Bard gets to travel with his Queen, and even did in the days before Traveling when it required weeks or months of riding on a horse to get anywhere.

Quote:
A woman who has spent over 20 years traveling just on one blue quest? You think she will settle down now?
Moiraine was never the one with an urge for traveling; that was Siuan. Why wouldn't she settle down? Her quest was important, and she fulfilled it, but ruling a great nation is important too, if for no other reason than to keep it from becoming a province of Andor. And there are plenty of clues along the way that, no matter how ashamed she is of her House and its black name, she does care about Cairhien. In fact, her shame shows that she cares.

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I do not see anything in Moiraine to indicate that she will suddenly up and stop her traveling ways.
To quote you..."Obvious troll is obvious."

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I do not agree with this at all. Elayne took the Sun throne on her own, just as she took the Lion throne.
She took it by her own right, which is a very important distinction. I like distinctions. She would have never taken it if Rand didn't feel like he needed her to do it.

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She did not want to even give Perrin lands she hasnt controlled in generations
Indeed, and that is a problem, the way I see it.

Quote:
I do not see her giving Moiraine an entire throne.
I think that Elayne has never wanted anything more than to rule Andor. She is Andoran, and she always will be in her heart. Perhaps the Cairhienin don't deserve one of their own, but the word 'deserve' can take on whole new connotations in the context of Moiraine and Thom ruling Cairhien. Because it is, after all, a joint monarchy.

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At this point she has already accepted the throne
There has been no coronation, and again, I don't believe that's an accident.

Quote:
has already swapped lands and titles with some nobles on both sides of the boarders etc...
I suspect that Moiraine will have a problem with that. Just a suspicion, though; that could go down several ways.

Quote:
can you please explain to me how you see her passing her throne to Moiraine? You have not explained how you propose this to happen...
I shouldn't have to. There are several scenarios that come to mind, all of them believable. It just takes a little imagination.
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  #244  
Old 06-20-2012, 05:07 AM
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I'm not seeing Queen Moiriane Damdored either. Most simply because I really don't see Moiraine wanting to spend the rest of her long life ruling. The great adventure of her life will be done post LB. I think, like Siuan, Moiraine too wants to take pleasure in life after the LB. I'm having a hard time picturing her ruling Cairhein, because its bound to be the most boring job for her. Do you really see her having patience to deal with the sneaky Game of Houses obsessed Cairheinin nobility? Do you see Thom wanting to work on that?

Moiraine is headed the Cadsuane route. Romp through adventures. She may offer Mat aid in the recapture of Seanchan. More likely, she may take it upon herself to hunt out the remaining Darkfriends. Or help rebuild Malkier.

The last seems most likely to me. Whether Lan survives aMoL or not, Malkier just came back to life. And both Nynaeve and Moiraine will want it rebuilt in memory of Lan if he dies, or help him rebuild it if he survives.

Or maybe she and Siuan will cook up some other plans for how they want to live out life. Travel to Shara like they dreamed of as Accepted, maybe?
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  #245  
Old 06-20-2012, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
I really don't see Moiraine wanting to spend the rest of her long life ruling.
She doesn't have to; presumably she can have children.

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Do you really see her having patience to deal with the sneaky Game of Houses obsessed Cairheinin nobility? Do you see Thom wanting to work on that?
Both of them do it in their sleep; I highly doubt either of them would have difficulty navigating those waters. Both of them together are unstoppable.
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  #246  
Old 06-20-2012, 05:18 AM
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She doesn't have to; presumably she can have children.
And...? Do you really see Moiraine actually taking the throne, giving to her kids in some years, and then not worrying? If she takes it, she'll consider it her responsibility till she dies, whether she renounces the throne or not. And a queen who gives up her throne can be a destabilizing force, especially if she disagrees with how her great-great grandson is doing the job.

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Both of them do it in their sleep; I highly doubt either of them would have difficulty navigating those waters. Both of them together are unstoppable.
The question was never if they can. The question is would they want to. After literally facing the Dark One, do you really think Moiraine is going to have any patience for petty politics?

One of Moiraine's big reasons for rejecting the throne before was that she knew it would put her in a position where she'd have to play the Game. She's excellent at it, but she has never shown an interest in playing it. She clearly despises it. Will she embrace it after the life she's lead up to now?
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  #247  
Old 06-20-2012, 05:41 AM
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And...? Do you really see Moiraine actually taking the throne, giving to her kids in some years, and then not worrying?
Yes.

I started a new thread on General; please divert all Moiraine discussion there. Thanks.
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  #248  
Old 06-20-2012, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
She gave him a pardon for both countries for any crimes past and present... tho i think his comment about Elayne's pardon (wonder who told her...) was off-based. I dont think anyone really knows what happened to Galledrile except Thom, as shortly after (and as a result of) that assassination the country erupted into civil war until Rand pacified them.
I think she found out in Tear from Moiraine, even though there's no way she found out in Tear from Moiraine, because the whole trip to Tanchico she thinks Thom is some random gleeman. Not a crazy-arse gleeman who murders kings of Cairhien.

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  #249  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:37 AM
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See, I KNEW that Tai'daishar was a stallion. Apparently, Rand is so manly that after he rode Kiruna's gelding for a while, its parts were restored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOD 21, Within the Stone
Tai'daishar was a sight to stare at, a sleek black stallion with a massive chest, a horse that drew attention, yet he had chosen to ride the animal anyway. If the Forsaken could find him as easily as they had at Algarin's manor house, there was little point to hiding.

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Originally Posted by ACOS 34, Ta'veren
The big, fiery-eyed black gelding he had ridden back from Dumai’s Wells had been brought out for him, with a high-cantled saddle all worked in gold and a crimson saddlecloth embroidered with the disc of black-and-white at each corner. The trappings suited the animal, and his name. Tai'daishar; in the Old Tongue, Lord of Glory. Horse and trappings both suited the Dragon Reborn.
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  #250  
Old 06-20-2012, 09:52 AM
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And yet Rand didn't seem to feel the same about Lord Brend's soldiers, when the Legion of the Dragon took them in, and their leader tried to kill him.

You might call that another pairing of clues, since Rand defeats Sammael right after this, and the bit with the Legion is in the beginning of Rand's arc in TPOD.
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
A difference could be that the White Lions were Rahvin's personal force, whereas what you call Lord Brend's soldiers were just regular Illianer conscripts. Led, of course, by officers hand picked by Brend, but we'll ignore that detail for now.
I missed this comment earlier. Just wanted to point out, that's probably not true. Brend would have had time to recruit his own men into Illian's army, and this gathering was ten times as large as any others they came across. Most of the rest of the army disintegrated. There's no reason to believe that only the officers were Brend's men, and plenty of reason to suspect otherwise.
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  #251  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:17 AM
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See, I KNEW that Tai'daishar was a stallion. Apparently, Rand is so manly that after he rode Kiruna's gelding for a while, its parts were restored.

Well, he can cause dead apple trees to grow fruit instantaneously...regenerating sex organs isn't that much of a stretch.

The land is one with the Dragon...
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  #252  
Old 06-20-2012, 10:46 AM
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See, I KNEW that Tai'daishar was a stallion. Apparently, Rand is so manly that after he rode Kiruna's gelding for a while, its parts were restored.
Those are the kind of things anyone with half a brain and a credulous nature might think of:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoT, Chapter 17, Secrets
... – battles with the Seanchan or the Asha’man, an Amyrlin imprisoned, the Dragon Reborn doing nine impossible things, visions that might be Tarmon Gai’don or a bilious stomach – ...
The chapter title does make me wonder whether you should've given this away, though. It will probably become hugely important during TG, somehow.
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  #253  
Old 06-20-2012, 11:44 AM
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I love the Tarmon Gai'don / bilious stomach line. I thought about posting about it when I read it, partly to say that I'm very happy Janya didn't turn out to be a Darkfriend. She's a bona fide eccentric Aes Sedai.
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  #254  
Old 06-22-2012, 08:00 AM
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I finished KOD yesterday but I haven't started TGS yet. Decided to catch up on some work that has been lagging before I start it.

Anyway, it occurred to me that Mor didn't do too bad a job when weaving his conspiracy theories, considering how little info he had to work with. He had Thom nailed for being the mastermind type; he wasn't really in this scenario, but the fact that Mor saw through Thom's gleeman facade is at least somewhat impressive. Many do not. Also, it's hard to fault him for missing the fact that Mat was the mastermind, considering. For all Mat's memories, he's still mostly the same as he was before he got them, so it's easy to miss. He knew that Suroth was hiding, knew that Egeanin was meeting Aes Sedai, and he knew there was something fishy about it. And in the end, he went to the right person to get to the bottom of it, and he risked his hide to do it, because Suroth had apparently corrupted some of his superiors in the Seekers, and he knew Suroth was all up in it. That's why he had to go to Karede for help. I love that scene because Karede doesn't freak out like Egeanin and Bethamin did at all, but it's hard not to sympathize with Mor because you can tell that all he wants is to get Tuon back and figure out what Suroth is up to. "I have heard it said a Deathwatch Guard can see a butterfly’s breath. Do you have anything to drink?"
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  #255  
Old 06-22-2012, 09:06 AM
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Still, when all's said and done, he did not do better than Semirhage, and if you're no better than a Forsaken, that's not good, is it?
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  #256  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:34 PM
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I love the Tarmon Gai'don / bilious stomach line. I thought about posting about it when I read it, partly to say that I'm very happy Janya didn't turn out to be a Darkfriend. She's a bona fide eccentric Aes Sedai.
Those normally turn out to be undercover agents investigating centuries-old secret societies to uncover all their secrets, though.
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  #257  
Old 06-27-2012, 12:56 AM
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Sorry to drag something up from quite a few pages back, but I was skimming through this thread and saw the question about Rand visiting a stedding twice in his life. He goes to Tsofu twice, once in tGH and then again probably sometime between tFoH and LoC to tell them to guard their Waygate.
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  #258  
Old 06-27-2012, 01:00 AM
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Good call.
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  #259  
Old 06-28-2012, 07:07 PM
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I took a little break before getting started on the Brandon books. I'm going to try not to focus my comments entirely on criticism, but this is the first thing I felt the need to comment on. One of the more common criticisms of Brandon is that he sometimes makes minor characters a little more idiotic than is strictly in character, simply to make more important characters look smart, and it struck me that Jisao's conversation with Gawyn in TGS 4 is an example of that. In that context, the minor characters become props. An oft-cited example is the Humbling of Cadsuane, but that's far from the only example.
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I took a little break before getting started on the Brandon books. I'm going to try not to focus my comments entirely on criticism, but this is the first thing I felt the need to comment on. One of the more common criticisms of Brandon is that he sometimes makes minor characters a little more idiotic than is strictly in character, simply to make more important characters look smart, and it struck me that Jisao's conversation with Gawyn in TGS 4 is an example of that. In that context, the minor characters become props. An oft-cited example is the Humbling of Cadsuane, but that's far from the only example.
Preach! I struggle to not be too hard on Sanderson, but he writes this series like Spielberg would direct it - heavy-handed and simple. There's a lot to credit simple writing with, but Spielberg can't deliver a message. He shows it, then he tells it, then heputs a big flashing sign over the part he wants you to understand.

For all his failings, Jordan knew how to write to smart adults. Maybe he expected too much; either way, this series has dragged on for too long, sadly...
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