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  #141  
Old 06-07-2012, 12:07 PM
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Also, for the record (again), "Last Chance" was a clue that Cyndane was Lanfear, and Graendal didn't consider it before she had any reason to believe that it was not Lanfear. Only when she came close did she have reason not to believe it, and even then it could have been inverted weaves to make her strength appear to be less than it was (Mesaana pulled that off with Danelle).
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  #142  
Old 06-07-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Also, for the record (again), "Last Chance" was a clue that Cyndane was Lanfear, and Graendal didn't consider it before she had any reason to believe that it was not Lanfear. Only when she came close did she have reason not to believe it, and even then it could have been inverted weaves to make her strength appear to be less than it was (Mesaana pulled that off with Danelle).
The point is, till she came close to her, she had no reason to believe she could channel at all. Now, you can argue that was a stupid assumption to make, I suppose. But I don't see it.

You're right on the inverted weave thing, though. Even Mesaana and Semirhage don't see it, apparently, which makes me think this is a plot hole. It doesn't quite fit with Graendal's character to ignore something so glaringly obvious. Doesn't fit the others either.

Quote:
She was a puzzle to Demandred. At first he had thought she was Lanfear reincarnated. Bodies for
transmigration supposedly were chosen by what was available, yet Osan'gar and Aran'gar were proof of the
Great Lord's cruel sense of humor. He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than
Lanfear.
Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age. Yet she spoke of al'Thor as Lews Therin, just as
Lanfear had, and spoke of the Choedan Kal as one familiar with the terror they had inspired during the War of
Power
Either the Foresaken have collectively forgotten about the weave (including Mesaana, who used it), or they know a way around it. Or, maybe they think Lanfear would never reduce her strength, and so can't believe this is her.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 06-07-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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  #143  
Old 06-07-2012, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I always assumed he was referring to the sad bracelets, even though they were confiscated by the Seanchan and obviously ended up with Semirhage. But that's assuming he had anything at all. It doesn't make much sense.
Come to think of it, Sammael may simply have had a baker's dozen of Myrddraal stashed away in a closet somewhere. That would indeed have done for the Dragon Reborn.
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  #144  
Old 06-07-2012, 11:55 PM
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It turns out that the Black Tower is the chicken that is not a chicken:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPOD 19, The Law
When Bryne rode out to confer with Uno, she took the opportunity to ask what the two women had learned about Aes Sedai and Tower Guards in Andor.

"Not much," Siuan replied in a tight voice. Shaggy Bela did not seem to be having any difficulty with the pace, but Siuan did, gripping her reins tightly in one hand and the pommel of her saddle with the other. "As near as I can make out, there are fifty rumors and no facts. It’s a likely sort of tale to spring up, but it might still be true." Bela lurched, her front hooves sinking deep, and Siuan gasped. "The Light burn all horses!"

Sheriam had learned no more. She shook her head, and sighed irritably. "It sounds all feathers and nonsense to me, Mother. There are always rumors of sisters sneaking about. Didn’t you ever learn to ride, Siuan?’ she added, her voice suddenly dripping derision. "By tonight, you’ll be too sore to walk!" Sheriam’s nerves must have been ragged for her to burst out so openly. From the way she kept shifting in her saddle, she had already achieved her prediction for Siuan.

Siuan’s eyes hardened, and she opened her mouth already half snarling, never mind who was watching from behind the banner.

"Be still, both of you!" Egwene snapped. She took a deep, calming breath. She was a bit ragged herself. Whatever Arathelle believed, any force Elaida sent to interfere with them would be too large for sneaking. That left the Black Tower, a disaster in the making. You got further plucking the chicken in front of you than trying to start on one up a tree. Especially when the tree was in another country and there might not even be another chicken.
TPOD came out in 1998; Tairy stole the idea and put it in his book which came out in 1999.
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  #145  
Old 06-08-2012, 12:54 AM
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Perhaps someone can help me out here. Elayne seems to think that Adeleas and Vandene are actually hurting Ispan when they question her. She thought that the ward against eavesdropping was to hide screams, and felt guilty about the questioning happening on Andoran soil. If they can't break bones or draw blood, or use the Power at all in questioning, then how are they hurting her? By pulling her hair?
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  #146  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Perhaps someone can help me out here. Elayne seems to think that Adeleas and Vandene are actually hurting Ispan when they question her. She thought that the ward against eavesdropping was to hide screams, and felt guilty about the questioning happening on Andoran soil. If they can't break bones or draw blood, or use the Power at all in questioning, then how are they hurting her? By pulling her hair?
They are only limited if the person being put to the question is an initiate of the tower. The first time the sisters took over questioning Ispan (at the Kin farm, long before they reached Andor)per Elaynes POV, she herself was not sure if a Black sister could still be counted as a tower initiate. It does not take much mental bending to be able to put her to the question if she isnt considered an initiate based on her associations with the shadow. Elayne also made mention of Whitecloak questioners being able to torture without breaking the skin etc. This all occurred the very first time the sisters took over Ispan's questions from Avi and Elayne.

Furthermore, there is no oath the AS take that REQUIRES them to follow tower tradition or law. That being said, Elayne herself was willing to order the torture and report herself for penance afterwards. The sisters could have been willing to do the same thing.

EDIT:
Elayne herself explains this all when she allowed them to take over the questions from her and avi... furthermore she expanded that the power isnt allowed to be used on ANY initiate for any reason (not just putting to the question) then thought internally about how its not entirely enforced as AS use the power to hit and flick novices and the like as well.
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Last edited by Ieyasu; 06-08-2012 at 01:13 AM. Reason: reread and added her thoughts
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  #147  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
They are only limited if the person being put to the question is an initiate of the tower. The first time the sisters took over questioning Ispan (at the Kin farm, long before they reached Andor)per Elaynes POV, she herself was not sure if a Black sister could still be counted as a tower initiate.
Yeah, I remembered that, but it didn't seem to me like they had decided she was not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPOD 4, A Quiet Place
"You will answer any questions my near-sister asks." Aviendha tested her belt knife on a thumbnail, but her eyes were on Ispanís. "Wetlanders fear pain. They do not know how to embrace it, accept it. You will answer as you are asked." She did not glare or snarl, she just spoke, but Ispan shrank back in the chair.

"I fear that is proscribed, even were she not an initiate of the Tower," Adeleas said. "We are forbidden to shed blood in questioning, or to allow others to do so in our name." She sounded reluctant, though whether over the prohibition or over admitting that Ispan was an initiate, Elayne could not say. She herself had not really considered that Ispan might still be considered one.
Adeleas says that she is, and Elayne seems to recognize that she said it. She doesn't appear to agree, but she's not the one doing the questioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Elayne also made mention of Whitecloak questioners being able to torture without breaking the skin etc. This all occurred the very first time the sisters took over Ispan's questions from Avi and Elayne.
Unless you are thinking of something else, this is what she actually thought:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TPOD 4, A Quiet Place
That law forbade not only shedding blood, but breaking bones and a number of other things that any Whitecloak Questioner would be more than ready to do. Before any session began, Healing had to be given, and if the questioning started after sunrise, it had to end before sundown; if after sunset, then before sunrise. The law was even more restrictive when it came to initiates of the Tower, the sisters and Accepted and novices, banning the use of saidar in questioning, punishment, or penance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
Furthermore, there is no oath the AS take that REQUIRES them to follow tower tradition or law. That being said, Elayne herself was willing to order the torture and report herself for penance afterwards. The sisters could have been willing to do the same thing.
Perhaps. I wish it were a little more explicit, though.
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  #148  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Unless you are thinking of something else, this is what she actually thought:



Perhaps. I wish it were a little more explicit, though.
That is what I was thinking, I just misread it to read exactly opposite of what it says lol. My mistake.

I think it is the penance thing personally, as she not only thought about it, but mentioned there were enough AS there to do so (requires 5)

Was it ever cleared up if one of them was BA or not? I should reread the part where Moiraine was attacked by the cloaked Dragkar...
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  #149  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:55 AM
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Yeah, Careane was Black. And the general consensus is that Liandrin warded the Draghkar. She and Verin rode off at the same time, and Verin went after the boys.
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  #150  
Old 06-08-2012, 04:33 AM
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How about total sensory deprivation?
That's usually rather unpleasant, but it does not break any bones nor does it draw blood. I don't think it would be at all easy for a Whitecloak Questioner to manage, but, using the OP, blocking someone else's senses off totally would not be impossible, I think.
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  #151  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
How about total sensory deprivation?
That's usually rather unpleasant, but it does not break any bones nor does it draw blood. I don't think it would be at all easy for a Whitecloak Questioner to manage, but, using the OP, blocking someone else's senses off totally would not be impossible, I think.
Not to mention waterboarding.
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  #152  
Old 06-08-2012, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Not to mention waterboarding.
Questioners could do that, though. Of course, it's possible that their morals are higher than those of US Marines, in which case they might decide that waterboarding was too evil to do even to someone suspected of being a DF.
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  #153  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:00 AM
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They're not allowed to use the Power in questioning.
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  #154  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:32 AM
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They're not allowed to use the Power in questioning.
This doesnt jive with the BA hunters in the tower using the chair, however. Or does it not count if you use the Power to power a device that tortures...??
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  #155  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:36 AM
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This doesnt jive with the BA hunters in the tower using the chair, however. Or does it not count if you use the Power to power a device that tortures...??
Not allowed doesnt mean they dont do it...it just means its against the rules.
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  #156  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:56 AM
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Well, the Hunters in the Tower might have wriggled around the 'initiate' thing, but Adeleas clearly didn't.
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  #157  
Old 06-08-2012, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoS
Ispan paced, swishing her skirts and frowning at the dust and old cobwebs. "This place smells. And it is filthy!" She shuddered as a large black cockroach went skittering up the wall. The glow surrounded her for a moment; a flow squashed the beetle with a popping sound. Making a face, Ispan wiped her hands on her skirts as if she had used them instead of the Power. She had a delicate stomach, though fortunately not when she could remove herself from the actual deed.
Ispan was noted for being exceptionally weak and squeamish, so they probably didn't need to do much to her. Tie her up in an uncomfortable position, interrogate her for hours without food or water, let Jaem rough her up, threaten her with figs and mice... You don't need to break bones or draw blood to torture someone (in fact, one of the worst torture methods I ever heard of involved ants and honey).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR
Amico had spoken freely of them, and so had Joiya, after a session alone in her cell with Moiraine that had left the Darkfriend pale-faced and almost civil.
It also seems likely that Moiraine used the secret Blue Ajah weave that induces fear on Joiya in TSR.
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  #158  
Old 06-08-2012, 12:53 PM
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Ispan was noted for being exceptionally weak and squeamish, so they probably didn't need to do much to her.
Probably true, but Elayne didn't know that, did she?
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  #159  
Old 06-09-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPOD 30, Beginnings
Edarra was sharply berating Masuri for letting her hood slip. Edarra and Carelle both wore their shawls wrapped around their heads and shoulders in addition to cloaks, but even after admitting the necessity to ride, they had refused to change out of their bulky skirts, so their dark-stockinged legs were bared above the knee. The cold did not seem to bother them in the least; just the strangeness of snow. Carelle began quietly advising Seonid as to what would happen if she did not keep her face hidden.
Perhaps an early clue that Masuri is Black Ajah. Careane did the same thing at the Kin's farm.
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:34 PM
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Thank you for all this. I haven't read anyone else's re-read thoughts, or one of yours before this one.

You remind me of why I loved and clove to this series so firmly, for so long.
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