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  #61  
Old 03-16-2012, 06:56 PM
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Well, considering the issues at stake, and the participants involved, one should think of this as a political trial. As such, expediency outweighed purely legal matters of guilt or lack thereof. Morgase handled that situation as well as might be expected, if you ask me.
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  #62  
Old 03-16-2012, 07:26 PM
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I have a feeling people would have different feelings if they were in Perrin's shoes and looking at it from his perspective.
How so? We agree that he had no choice. We're just not pretending that he didn't likely murder a couple guys based on the relevant local laws. To him, Whitecloaks killed his friend and he avenged him. To the law, Whitecloaks killed some human-hating wolf, then a crazy guy killed two of them. I doubt even if Hopper was classed as a pet that it would provide Perrin justification for killing his killers.

Morgase was, if anything, lenient with the legal matters. Which is why I had to respond when someone was saying she flubbed the situation.
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  #63  
Old 03-16-2012, 07:50 PM
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How so? We agree that he had no choice. We're just not pretending that he didn't likely murder a couple guys based on the relevant local laws. To him, Whitecloaks killed his friend and he avenged him. To the law, Whitecloaks killed some human-hating wolf, then a crazy guy killed two of them. I doubt even if Hopper was classed as a pet that it would provide Perrin justification for killing his killers.

Morgase was, if anything, lenient with the legal matters. Which is why I had to respond when someone was saying she flubbed the situation.
I agree with all of this, including everything regarding Perrin killing the Whitecloaks, except I don't count it as murder. I count it as self-defense.

The way Perrin's trial played out and the legalities that Morgase talked about, it counted him a murderer. I don't dispute that. However, the trial also discounted the fact that Perrin was employing self-defense, whatever his motives. I agree, the line is awfully blurry in this situation. I guess I'm keying more on the fact that the Whitecloaks initiated the aggression (mind you, with lethal tones - this is important), and so that makes pretty much anything Perrin did (including kill Whitecloaks) count as self-defense. Even though his motive was mostly or entirely based around pure rage and revenge.
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  #64  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:34 AM
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Another way of looking at said example. And the only way to look at it, unless one is willing to deem Whitecloaks as a whole to be rabid creatures that one can put down at will (even Morgase doesn't go that far, AFTER she's held by Valda). A military force is making camp. They hear a noise that could indicate something hostile. They give said maker of noise a chance to come out to demonstrate that they're not hostile. A wild animal threatens them and they defend themselves. Wild animal's friend kills members of the armed force.
Let's be a bit more precise, shall we?
From their own testimony:
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Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 34, Judgment
"When we arrived," Byar continued, "we found that the campsite had been used recently. That concerned us; few people knew of the stedding. We determined, from the single firepit, that there were not many of these mysterious wayfarers."
So they knew very well that only a very small number of people had been there. They knew that those few people had fled away upon the approach of a large group of armed men. So what did they do?

They could consider the possibility that those few travelers had been frightened by this strong and potentially dangerous force. Or they could assume that 3 or 4 frightened people were a threat to a hundred Whitecloaks, and start hunting them.
They chose the second.

Now, if those Whitecloaks had been led by Carridin, who was a DF, and Perrin had surrendered as asked, then what would have happened?
Perhaps nothing, since Ishamael hadn't given specific orders, yet. On the other hand, Perrin might have been killed, and the cause of the Light lost, because capturing or killing Perrin was then a potentially winning move to the Shadow.

So from Perrin's point of view, there were only risks and no gain in approaching the Whitecloaks.
From the WC point of view, ignoring those few travelers, apart perhaps from setting a few more sentries than normal, would have been a completely adequate solution.

Perrin took the smart approach, the Whitecloaks escalated the situation.

Or, to take a somewhat different take on things:
Why didn't Perrin point out that if he had taken the Whitecloak approach to Morgase, then she would have been shy a couple of hand and feet?
When she met Perrin, she did what he did when he met those Whitecloaks: she ran away. According to WC logic, that was sufficient to brand her a DF, so Perrin should have put her to the question. As you remember from the Aiel he did that to, that would mean chopping off her hand and feet.
Yet if he had done that, then both Morgase and Galad would think that he had acted unjustly and inexcusably.
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  #65  
Old 03-17-2012, 01:17 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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That's not how military or paramilitary organizations work. You don't figure that unknown people hiding in the vicinity of your camp will probably not be dangerous because there are less of them than you.

The consequences don't matter. Raising the threat to the cause of the Light is both hindsight bias and a mere mitigating factor or affirmative defense; it's a justification argument. Justified murder is still murder.

Avenging a friend (especially a non-human friend) is not self-defense. Responding to a demand that you show yourself by killing two men is also not self-defense.
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  #66  
Old 03-17-2012, 02:28 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Would explain why there are so many civilian casualties in Afghanistan, I guess. Any time a US patrol meets any locals, either the locals prove they're innocent on the spot, or they are considered terrorists and consequently attacked.

Decent military organisations do not simply assume that anyone they meet is an enemy until proven differently. Especially not when they're moving around in what is at best the territory of a not very trusting ally.
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  #67  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:36 PM
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This was not a populated area or a home invasion.
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  #68  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:37 AM
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Now, if those Whitecloaks had been led by Carridin, who was a DF, and Perrin had surrendered as asked, then what would have happened?
If this is your argument, then it is valid to meet any show of force by any law enforcement or military organization with a sneak attack intended to kill, since there are Darkfriends in high-up places in basically all said organizations.

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Would explain why there are so many civilian casualties in Afghanistan, I guess. Any time a US patrol meets any locals, either the locals prove they're innocent on the spot, or they are considered terrorists and consequently attacked.
Is this sort of thing allowed on the WoT threads? Seems like a rather uncalled-for cheap shot. Yes, if you kill a wild animal in self-defense and then someone kills several of your men for it, you're justified in taking them into custody to be tried. I can't believe this requires defense. That is the only act that has been justified or attempted to be by the posters in this thread.
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  #69  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:00 PM
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Is this sort of thing allowed on the WoT threads? Seems like a rather uncalled-for cheap shot. Yes, if you kill a wild animal in self-defense and then someone kills several of your men for it, you're justified in taking them into custody to be tried. I can't believe this requires defense. That is the only act that has been justified or attempted to be by the posters in this thread.
Suppose it had been the other way around, a bit later in the series: Perrin with a bunch of his Two Rivers men had come upon half a dozen or so Whitecloaks, they'd killed the WC's horses, then given the Children the choice "prove that you walk in the Light or fight to the death" and then some of Perrin's men had died in the ensuing fight.
Would the WC then really be guilty of murder?

They did not just "kill some wild animals in self defense", they were deliberately and purposefully hunting them. They were also deliberately and knowingly hunting the few people who had been camping there until those few people fled upon the approach of a large number of rather hostile armed men. You can not honestly claim self defense when it is you who starts the killing.
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  #70  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:13 PM
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You can not honestly claim self defense when it is you who starts the killing.
You can when what you're killing has no rights under local law. And I'm not saying it was actual self defense by the Whitecloaks from the reader POV, which is very different from the POV of Morgase judging the case. Even if the law might have to take that as a valid finding based on whatever laws are in place. I suppose it would depend on what statutes Andor has regarding whether intimidation to reveal one's presence in the wild is grounds for killing without warning.

As much as I agree about there being too much collateral damage in Afghanistan, I'm not interested in reading posts by someone who is going to be making cheap anti-American cheap shots casually (to win an argument about fictional applications of mostly undefined Common law, ffs). There's enough of that other places on the internet, and it's one reason I stay away from off-topic forums on fan sites. Any possibility I can get the ability go block Gonzo, since I get an error message since he's a Mod/Admin? As much as I appreciate his other posts, it just kills my interest in participating on the forums to read that sort of thing.

Last edited by Grig; 03-19-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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  #71  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:57 PM
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They did not just "kill some wild animals in self defense", they were deliberately and purposefully hunting them. They were also deliberately and knowingly hunting the few people who had been camping there until those few people fled upon the approach of a large number of rather hostile armed men. You can not honestly claim self defense when it is you who starts the killing.
You certainly can when what you're killing has absolutely no legal standing. What Andoran law is going to take the WC to task for killing wolves? They're animals, untrusted, unwanted, and because of human lack of awareness, often considered the Dark One's own pets. There is not a single Andoran law that would call them to account for killing wolves.

In short, they did NOT start the killing. They may have provoked it, by attempting to capture someone they had no legal standing to capture, but the killing was initiated by Perrin.

Why? Because wolves do not count.
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  #72  
Old 03-19-2012, 01:40 PM
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They did not just "kill some wild animals in self defense", they were deliberately and purposefully hunting them.
Might make this my new sig...so good.
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  #73  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:38 PM
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Apparently hunting is illegal in Gonzo's Randland.

Suppose Perrin and some Two Rivers men established a camp and found evidence that someone had been there recently. Then they get attacked by grolm. They kill the grolm, then see what they think is a person hiding. They say, "Come out! You won't be harmed unless you mean us harm or are a Darkfriend!"

Then another grolm attacks, they kill it, and hidden Seanchan soldier comes out laying about with his sword, and kills Wil and Ban.

I think that's a better example. You're bringing baggage - about how important the wolves are, and about how villainous the Whitecloaks are - that's not warranted or relevant to a discussion about whether what Perrin did constitutes murder.
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  #74  
Old 03-19-2012, 05:59 PM
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Were the Whitecloaks in Andor legally? Did they have permission to bring an armed force into the country and move about armed, unescorted, and with free rein? That obviously isn't a question Morgase wants to think about, let alone answer. But it does muddy up an already murky legal case.
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  #75  
Old 03-19-2012, 07:15 PM
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Fair question. But considering that Perrin's a seditious traitor by legal technicalities, let's not worry about that overmuch.
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  #76  
Old 03-20-2012, 05:29 AM
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If anyone wants to muddle the case further, then adding Owein to the mix might be an interesting idea. He was one of Alanna's Warders, and the Children killed him when they saw a chance to do so.
Which shows that Perrin did indeed have reason to fear for his life, even if you ignore the fact that the DO himself* was hunting him.

Oh, and for further murkiing up the waters: does Andor have any hunting laws?

* Technically: Ishamael. Doesn't really make much of a difference, though, since at the time, only Ishamael and the DO knew about this distinction.
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  #77  
Old 03-20-2012, 11:35 AM
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If anyone wants to muddle the case further, then adding Owein to the mix might be an interesting idea. He was one of Alanna's Warders, and the Children killed him when they saw a chance to do so.
Which shows that Perrin did indeed have reason to fear for his life, even if you ignore the fact that the DO himself* was hunting him.

Oh, and for further murkiing up the waters: does Andor have any hunting laws?

* Technically: Ishamael. Doesn't really make much of a difference, though, since at the time, only Ishamael and the DO knew about this distinction.
(1) Owein was a warder.
(2) Owein didn't die in TEOTW.
(3) Nobody's arguing the Children are good, but you don't have to be morally perfect in order to be a victim of a crime, up to and including murder. Perrin was NOT in the last defense of his life. They effectively told him that he had to come out with his hands up. They weren't Trollocs. They weren't Ishamael. They weren't attacking him. And Hopper was a wolf.
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  #78  
Old 03-20-2012, 12:08 PM
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Everyone seems to be ignoring a major detail. The act of which Perrin is accused took place in a stedding and therefore his judgement is Ogier business.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:20 PM
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Everyone seems to be ignoring a major detail. The act of which Perrin is accused took place in a stedding and therefore his judgement is Ogier business.
A detail which is indeed quite relevant. Also a detail of which Morgase probably was not aware at all, so it wouldn't be fair to blame her for ignoring it.

Then again, she wasn't asked to adjudicate because it had happened in Andor, but because she was the nearest they could find to an impartial judge acceptable to all parties. Still, I agree that it should have been brought before the Stump, rather than letting Asunawa (who would've been the judge if Moiraine and Lan hadn't interfered) handle it.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:27 PM
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A detail which is indeed quite relevant. Also a detail of which Morgase probably was not aware at all, so it wouldn't be fair to blame her for ignoring it.

Then again, she wasn't asked to adjudicate because it had happened in Andor, but because she was the nearest they could find to an impartial judge acceptable to all parties. Still, I agree that it should have been brought before the Stump, rather than letting Asunawa (who would've been the judge if Moiraine and Lan hadn't interfered) handle it.
The Stedding was abandoned and Andor had adversely possessed it.
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