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  #21  
Old 08-16-2010, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I think it more likely that the people will be forced to appreciate him before it's all said and done.
Yes. Seems appropriate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: Epigraph

With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death.
  #22  
Old 08-17-2010, 06:36 AM
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Three separate prophecies say he has to die. The Aelfinn, for example, give true answers. If Rand only had to fake his death, then 'To live, you must DIE' would be untrue. They should have then said 'to live, you must fake your death'.
The Aelfinn are known to twist the truth and not tell it straight out. It's possible TDO will resurrect him (hey, he gave him TP...). I do, however, think T1P-based resurrection will turn the series in a negative way that RJ didn't seem to be pushing for.

I'm still really tied to his death being feigned in some way. It's all pointed that way to me since my first read-through.

.....Of course, if you add in "two, and only one lives" could mean that Rand somehow claims Moridin's body before Rand's body dies?


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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It was a dream of Egwene's, not a vision of Min's. Also, the dream probably indicates that Rand's death won't be permanent, and that he'll be coming back in a different body. There are two different theories that fit: mine, and the body-swap theory. Faking his death doesn't fulfill the prophecies that say he has to die.
Touche. My bad. The same dream seemed to mention an empty shell, however. RJ is good at using every word even when there's 10,000,000 in the book.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
She's not going to kill him, but she's going to help him DIE, not fake his death.
I think it'd help to know the exact vision, but unless it's very clear, "help him DIE" could very well mean faking death.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Oh really? What makes you say that?
For one, she's been Damane her whole life, which gives her quite a bit of inside-knowledge. For another, she's tremendously powerful at T1P which means she's as useful as you're going to have if you can keep a metal leash off her.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I think it more likely that the people will be forced to appreciate him before it's all said and done.
I think this can (and will) come to pass whether he really dies or not.
  #23  
Old 08-17-2010, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
The Aelfinn are known to twist the truth and not tell it straight out.
But in this case, they did say it straight out.

Quote:
I think it'd help to know the exact vision, but unless it's very clear, "help him DIE" could very well mean faking death.
No, it means helping him die. And we know that those were Min's exact words.
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  #24  
Old 08-17-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
This is true, and you're not the first to suggest it - Callandor and Linda both come to mind - but it seems overly complicated to me.
Simple, like your theory? Joking.

I do understand what you mean. RJ seemed to tie visions, dreams and prophecies about a common theme together. A theme such as Rand's death. I think biggest problem with Rand's death is that we have so much information in the form of visions, dreams and prophecies that it gets somewhat convoluted. Admittedly, your theory brings and order to them.

One dream throws me for a loop because the information provided thus far allows for an extremely open interpretation of it, the dream of the man dying in the bed. The funeral pyre mention seems to tie to Rand, add that to Min's viewing and Nicola's foretelling and it surely does. This could throw a damper on many theories. Then again, it need not be Rand, which always get me thinking, who else could it be?
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  #25  
Old 08-17-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
But in this case, they did say it straight out.
This is clearly open to interpretation. "To live you must DIE" is only as close to "you will be resurrected" as it is "to live you must feign your death". I think the only way he will actually die is if TDO has some reason to resurrect him. I'm still convinced with the wording and the rarity of the claim of death that it's referring to him being "killed off" in the eyes of the world so that he can continue to live in a world where everyone wants him dead.


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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, it means helping him die. And we know that those were Min's exact words.
Min knows what viewings mean, but without us knowing the viewing itself (and it is one of the only viewings we only know the interpretation of) we cannot understand any nuances that she might have missed. She does miss the nuances sometimes.

I'll put it this way. He certainly could die. I just don't think either occurrence that explicitly mentions him dying is conclusive, for the reasons I mentioned above.
  #26  
Old 08-17-2010, 10:53 AM
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Perhaps the DO will transmigrate him. That'd be a good use of the link Moridin is forging right now, wouldn't it?
  #27  
Old 08-17-2010, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
The Aelfinn are known to twist the truth and not tell it straight out. It's possible TDO will resurrect him [Rand] (hey, he gave him TP...)
Not to be too analytical, but didn't Brandon clarify that Rand didn't necessarily get the TP given to him by the DO?

Here's a quote I found from the Interview Database...seems to me like there's a definite chance that Rand grabbed it through the Moridin link vs. being given the TP by the Dark One.

Quote:
Matt: There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark One’s permission, so for clarification’s sake, did Rand have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power?
Brandon: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording: generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it. It is good that you have asked this so I can make sure on the record that is the answer I have given.
Unless there's a more recent clarification on the subject from Brandon or Team Jordan?
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  #28  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
Min knows what viewings mean, but without us knowing the viewing itself (and it is one of the only viewings we only know the interpretation of) we cannot understand any nuances that she might have missed. She does miss the nuances sometimes.
When she knows, she knows. This has been brought up many times. When she says something will happen, it will happen 100% (you know, provided the DO doesn't destroy the wheel). She said 'die'. Alivia will play a role of some type in his death, an actual physical death. Nuances mean nothing when she knows what a vision means.
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  #29  
Old 08-17-2010, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
Min knows what viewings mean, but without us knowing the viewing itself (and it is one of the only viewings we only know the interpretation of) we cannot understand any nuances that she might have missed. She does miss the nuances sometimes.
No, she does not. Sometimes she doesn't know what the viewing means, but when she knows, she knows...and the words come with the viewing, like a Foretelling. The words were 'Alivia is going to help you die.'
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  #30  
Old 08-17-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, she does not. Sometimes she doesn't know what the viewing means, but when she knows, she knows...and the words come with the viewing, like a Foretelling. The words were 'Alivia is going to help you die.'
Do they, really? I can't believe I've missed this in all my re-reads, but it's possible. Is it ever mentioned that the viewings carry wording with them (a-la SoT?).

I always thought she "just knew" but that her interpretations were in her own words. And if her interpretations were vague it was because there was a part of the viewing she didn't understand as clearly.
  #31  
Old 08-17-2010, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 29 - A Cup of Sleep

"They will serve you, each in her fashion, Rand," she said hurriedly. "I saw it." Sorilea would serve him? Suddenly Min wondered exactly what "in her fashion" meant. The words came with the knowing, but she did not always know what the words themselves meant. But they would serve; that much was plain.
Word to the wise: everyone misses stuff on re-reads, even me (and I miss much less than most). I've never, ever seen a noob that had a comprehensive knowledge of the series upon joining the online fandom, no matter if they read the series ten times before joining. It takes constant discussion and long-term exposure to the hive mind to keep all the details straight.
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2010, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
No, she does not. Sometimes she doesn't know what the viewing means, but when she knows, she knows...and the words come with the viewing, like a Foretelling. The words were 'Alivia is going to help you die.'
Like Elaida's foretellings, you mean? Because the wording of those was pretty open to interpretation as evidenced by Elaida's behavior.

I don't see any reason to take the wording of a foretelling, viewing, dream or prophecy literally. All of these things can be fulfilled figuratively.
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2010, 05:39 PM
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Like Elaida's foretellings, you mean? Because the wording of those was pretty open to interpretation as evidenced by Elaida's behavior.
If Elaida had said that the Amyrlin was going to die, then the Amyrlin would have died, whether it was her or Egwene. When Min says someone is going to die, they die. It is not open to interpretation at all.
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2010, 08:57 PM
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If Elaida had said that the Amyrlin was going to die, then the Amyrlin would have died, whether it was her or Egwene. When Min says someone is going to die, they die. It is not open to interpretation at all.
When did Min say Rand will die? She said Alivia would help him die. The way RJ has always worked, that's an ocean of difference.
  #35  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:12 PM
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When did Min say Rand will die? She said Alivia would help him die. The way RJ has always worked, that's an ocean of difference.
I don't see how. There is an ocean of difference between Alivia helping him die and Alivia killing him - at least, there is room for interpretation there - but Min said he will die. That means he will die. The Aelfinn also said he will die, and they said it straight out, just like Min said it straight out. It seems to be a paradox, but with the resurrection opportunities we have, it need not be. Nicola's comment seems to be a paradox, but with what we know about what will happen to Rand when he dies, it isn't. He's going to die.
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  #36  
Old 08-18-2010, 06:32 AM
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I don't see how. There is an ocean of difference between Alivia helping him die and Alivia killing him - at least, there is room for interpretation there - but Min said he will die. That means he will die. The Aelfinn also said he will die, and they said it straight out, just like Min said it straight out. It seems to be a paradox, but with the resurrection opportunities we have, it need not be. Nicola's comment seems to be a paradox, but with what we know about what will happen to Rand when he dies, it isn't. He's going to die.
Because RJ can squeeze an ocean between two letters in a word.

Helping him die refers to cooperation with him, not actually a prophecy of his death. It makes the most obvious conclusion his death, but the words can plainly be fulfilled by her helping him fake his own death.

It really can go either way. I think it'd be more of a WTF if it went the "feign death" route.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:39 AM
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Because RJ can squeeze an ocean between two letters in a word.
You need to come up with a comparable example. So far, you have not done so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraxas
Helping him die refers to cooperation with him, not actually a prophecy of his death.
It is a prophecy of his death. If it was a prophecy of faking his death, then Min would have said Alivia was going to help him fake his death. But she said Alivia is going to help him DIE. That, along with the Aelfinn, who always give true answers, makes it clear that Rand is going to die. The 'cooperation' part comes in because Rand has to die in order to save his soul from the Shadow. I believe it will be a group effort, with several Lightfriends contributing, possibly including Perrin, Mat, Elayne, Alivia, Gawyn, and Moiraine. None of the evil people who want to kill Rand will have the pleasure of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraxas
It makes the most obvious conclusion his death, but the words can plainly be fulfilled by her helping him fake his own death.
No, they cannot, not without RJ breaking his own rules (which I'm pretty sure he did not intend to do). He said Min's viewings are absolute foretellings, and he said that the Aelfinn always give true answers. You are trying to make it otherwise.

I'm done with this argument; it's clear you'll believe what you want to believe on it anyway.
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  #38  
Old 08-18-2010, 12:13 PM
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You need to come up with a comparable example. So far, you have not done so.
You mean Elaida's prophecies she was sure were about her own greatness? Or do you want something that just involves Min? She doesn't have enough vague viewings to conclude anything. This is one of them, though.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It is a prophecy of his death. If it was a prophecy of faking his death, then Min would have said Alivia was going to help him fake his death. But she said Alivia is going to help him DIE. That, along with the Aelfinn, who always give true answers, makes it clear that Rand is going to die. The 'cooperation' part comes in because Rand has to die in order to save his soul from the Shadow. I believe it will be a group effort, with several Lightfriends contributing, possibly including Perrin, Mat, Elayne, Alivia, Gawyn, and Moiraine. None of the evil people who want to kill Rand will have the pleasure of it.
You may be right. However, your argument is not really invalidating my view. Especially because (thanks to your information) she gleaned the words from the viewing, she doesn't necessarily know the subtle nuances of the words themselves. This is fairly reasonable. She has not once revealed viewing Rand's death. Even Rand pointed out to her when she said Alivia would kill him that her words were specific.

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No, they cannot, not without RJ breaking his own rules (which I'm pretty sure he did not intend to do). He said Min's viewings are absolute foretellings, and he said that the Aelfinn always give true answers. You are trying to make it otherwise.
He never said either of them were always straightforward. Your entire RJ rules argument hinges on whether "to live you must die" and "she will help you die" are unambiguous. They are not.

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I'm done with this argument; it's clear you'll believe what you want to believe on it anyway.
You seem to be getting very emotionally attached to an argument about a book. It could go either way. You've failed to provide argument that conclusively disputes the theory. That is all. At this point, it's your opinion vs mine about what Robert Jordan perceives as "true" or what Robert Jordan's opinion of the meanings of two sentences were. Neither of us are Robert Jordan.
  #39  
Old 08-18-2010, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Abraxas View Post
You mean Elaida's prophecies she was sure were about her own greatness? Or do you want something that just involves Min? She doesn't have enough vague viewings to conclude anything. This is one of them, though.
Elaida's Foretelling will be true, word for word. The same as Min's visions are, word for word. Elaida's mistake was assuming she would be the Amyrlin in the Foretelling. She will help you die. Leaves little room for discussion on whether or not Rand will die an actual physical death.

How it will happen, how Alivia will help, when etc. are open to debate, Rand's dying however, is not.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:38 PM
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I think one should not get the facts mixed up.

We never heard Elaida's foretelling, only her interpretation of it and we know she is bad at that.

Mins viewings are not prophecies, meaning they are not literal. She sees pictures above people's heads, they are visual.
With Min we either get the viewing ("I see a sword, a red hand...") or her interpretation of the viewing.
While she is very good at interpreting her viewings, we cannot really be sure she is always right. What she sees is always true, we can be less sure about what she makes from it.

This passage is interesting in this regard (WH, Ch. 25:
Quote:
“Rand, I like Alivia. I do, even if she does make Nynaeve have kittens left and right.” One fist planted on her hip, Min leaned forward and pointed a finger at his nose. “But she is going to kill you.” She bit off every word.

“You said she was going to help me die,” he said quietly. “Those were your words.” How would he feel at dying? Sadness at leaving her, at leaving Elayne and Aviendha. Sadness for the pain he had brought them. He would like to see his father again before the end. Aside from those things, he almost thought death would be a relief.

Death is a relief, Lews Therin said fervently. I want death. We deserve death!

“Helping me die isn’t the same as killing me,” Rand went on. He was very good at ignoring the voice, now. “Unless you’ve changed your mind about what you saw.”

Min flung up her hands in exasperation. “I saw what I saw and it’s what I told you, but the Pit of Doom swallow me if I can see any difference. And I can’t see why you think there is!”

“Sooner or later, I have to die, Min,” he said patiently. He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. That still made no sense to him, but it left one cold hard fact. Just as the Prophecies of the Dragon seemed to say, he had to die.
Here we even see Min apparently interpreting it wrong, as Rand is keen to point out to her (and to the reader).

As to the Aelfinn's, you cannot really say that an answer that is contradictory in itself ("to live, you must die") allows just one possible interpretation.


Personally, I think Min's viewings more likely refers to Rand dying as him purposely faking his death.
But I think you could also, for example, include a near-death and still be true to the viewing. What if Rand is on the brink of death, even thought dead by all and Nyaneve brings him back to live?
Everything that runs under the label of "reanimation" would not contradict Min's viewing.
 


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