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Old 08-17-2010, 05:09 AM
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Default Perun

In Brandon's spiel on Facebook about Gawain/Gawyn, he mentioned that we should look up Perun for Perrin. I looked up the Wikipedia page at the time, and found it interesting...but as I was working on my new version of Le Morte d'AlThor, it occurred to me that since I am incorporating Perrin into it that I should dig deeper on Perun. I'm glad I did.

I found this page so far, and there are several clues there as to how events might play out.

Quote:
In Slavic mythology, the world was represented by a sacred tree, usually an oak, whose branches and trunk represented the living world of heavens and mortals, while its roots represented the underworld, i.e. the realm of dead.

This is presumably a parallel to Avendesora (there are plenty enough of those...and of course an important one in the Odin stories).

Quote:
Perun was a ruler of the living world, sky and earth, and was often symbolised by an eagle sitting on the top of the tallest branch of the tree, from which he kept watch over the entire world.

Red eagle?

Quote:
Perun was a punisher of evil-doers. Deep down in the roots of the tree was the place of his enemy, symbolised by a serpent or a dragon: this was Zaltys, a great serpent curled at the base of the world tree (which people later associated with Veles, watery god of the underworld).

The parallel here is to Slayer, I think. I'll get to why later on.

Quote:
Zaltys /Veles continually provoked Perun by stealing his cattle, children or wife.

Slayer didn't steal Faile, but she was stolen. And Luc did try flirting with Faile.

Quote:
Perun pursued Zaltys /Veles around the earth, attacking him with his lightning bolts from the sky. Zaltys /Veles fled from him by transforming himself into various animals, or hiding behind trees, houses or people; wherever a lightning bolt struck, it was believed, this was because Zaltys /Veles hid from Perun under or behind that particular place. In the end, Perun managed to kill Zaltys /Veles, or to chase him back down into his watery underworld.

This very much resembles Perrin chasing Slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Quote:
As the thunder god, he enters into a union with the mother earth (or sometimes creates it), and impregnates it through rainwater, causing her to generate life. One of Perun's main roles is to restore the earth's productive powers after the multi-headed snake demon steals the holy waters, takes away the earth's moisture, and renders her infertile. After killing the demon, Perun releases the holy waters that come pouring down to restore the earth's fertility.

Min saw 'trees flowering all around him'. This seems to be very important for Perrin, as were the other earliest viewings we were given.

Quote:
As a thunder deity, all manner of rain-related phenomenon were associated with him. Perun's family all had roles in the coming of rain. His sons would make the thunder and cause the lightning to strike. His daughters and wife would sift the rain. Together, they brought the moisture, thus making the land fertile so crops would grow. This would have been very important to the agricultural societies which worshipped Perun. To invoke Perun's favor or call upon him to bring the rains, worshippers would give food offerings to the god.

This is interesting for two reasons. First, the rainstorm that Verin created when Perrin began hunting Trollocs; the storm was a bit more ferocious than she had anticipated, and it lasted a while. Second, the scene in the prologue of Lord of Chaos when the Wisdoms of the villages come to Perrin and Faile about the weather, particularly the lack of rain.

Quote:
Rain is a happy omen and, falling before a new endeavour is commenced, guarantees its success. The sick are given rain water, or water collected from the seven springs to drink. Rain water, or the water of life, as it is called in Russian, heals wounds, makes mutilated parts of the body grow, rejuvenates the old, and resurrects the dead.

The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again.

This is particularly interesting to me because of my theory on Rand's death and resurrection. Of course, part of why he has to die is so that his link to Moridin can be severed, but the other part is so that his body can be healed of his never-healing wounds. If he dies and goes to Tel'aran'rhiod, then his body will be healed, but he won't be quite alive yet. In order to be resurrected, he has to be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod in his new, healed body, and then bonded by his three women.

And of course, I have been saying for a while that part of Perrin's purpose will be to fight Slayer while the Lightfriends go to Tel'aran'rhiod to resurrect Rand. I don't think Slayer's powers are random; I think this is their purpose in the story.

The next bit reinforces that:

Quote:
What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being.

Min knows the future, and Aviendha will have just returned from her trip through the columns to see the past. Elayne...not sure how she can be said to see the present any more than the other two, but she will be the one to lay the bond on Rand.

Quote:
The arbor mundi is seen as a mediator between the world of the dead and the world of the living. The fight between the eagle and the snake demon is eternal, and represents the cycle of life and death, and of the seasons. The defeat of the demon results in the release of live waters.

When Perrin defeats Slayer, then it will be safe to resurrect Rand.

Quote:
Death in slavic folklore is seen as a temporary state, a state of sleep.

This is sort of like 'life is a dream', and also sort of like the afterlife experienced by the Heroes and the wolves.

Quote:
The sun in Russian folklore is metaphorically called Ognioni kamen, or Bel goruch kamen ? the white hot stone

Some relation to Rand's white-hot iron maybe? Perun is associated with stone, but Perrin is associated with iron. I believe all the pertinent events will happen on Sunday - the longest (and sunniest) day of the year - so there is some possibility there.
I can't help but think of Faile...'She hunts the sun', speaking of Berelain's pursuit of Rand.

Quote:
Perun either holds the fire-stone (the fireball) in his hands, or his thick eyelashes hide the fire underneath them or, at times, he himself represents the sun. On the one hand, the sun (fire-stone) dies every winter or, having become weak, is overpowered by his adversary the dark forces of winter and revives every spring after having bathed in the pure waters released by Perun.

Dumai's Wells occurred during the winter solstice, the darkest time of the year.

Quote:
On the other hand, Perun has to drink the living fluids of the celestial wells first before he is able to kill the snake demon, and send life generating rains down to earth...Perun is himself incapable of impregnating the earth without having first drunk the fluids of life from the celestial springs.

I think this might be a clue to why Perrin is compelled to learn the Wolf Dream, and Hopper's warnings about he comes there too strongly. It was the same when he rescued Faile in TDR; he was there too strongly, but it was necessary to save her. I think Perrin might be in danger of slipping almost completely into Tel'aran'rhiod - and into death - when he hunts Slayer the final time. It might also be a clue that he needs to go there 'too strongly' in order to do what he has to do with the trees and all.

Quote:
In other stories the representative of Perun recovers gems or treasures which evil spirits have hidden away within mountains or under deep waters

The Eye of the World?

Quote:
Slava is a beautiful bird - a messenger of God Perun, every feather of which was said to shine a different color. This beautiful bird was called MATEPb CBA (Mater Sva) which can be translated either as Mater Slava (Mother Glory), Mater svex (Mother of everyone) or Mater Sova (Mother Owl - which may be why much of Russian Folk art depicts an owl). This flame colored bird usually appeared in the critical moment and pointed with its wing the direction in which an army should go. Everyone knew that either glory or a glorious death awaited the warriors and the prince had no choice but to follow the bird's lead.

This might be some reference to Aram, or maybe to the Tinkers as a whole.

From this page:

Quote:
Many scholars see the origin of music, use of musical instruments and bells, and the beating of drums as attempts to imitate the voice of Perun, and part of the magical efforts to protect the world from the evil forces and spirits.

Perrin says he sounds like a stepped-on frog when singing...but seed-singing required deep voices. That is why only men and Ogier participated. Perhaps there is some significance here; Perrin might actually have a nice bass voice, so low that people made fun of him for it when he sang.

From this page:

Quote:
With the arrival of Christianity, various churches had a difficult time trying to overcome the worship of the old supreme deities of the Slavs. In the East, the Eastern Orthodox Church gradually managed to pass much of Perun's characteristics on to a new Christian saint, Elias the Thunderer, based upon the Old Testament prophet Elijah, whom the Scriptures state rode a flaming chariot through heaven; this seemed a good enough approximation of the old thunder god with his fiery bolts.

Aside from the Elyas reference...Elijah was one of two people in the Bible to ascend to heaven without dying (the other being Enoch). This might be another reference to Perrin going to Tel'aran'rhiod too strongly.

Quote:
Perun was also associated with St. George, since both Perun and St.George slay the dragon. St. George is the patron of wild and domestic animals.

There go the wolves.

From this page:

Quote:
Finally, after Christianization the cult merged and was transformed into veneration of Saint Elias. This happened most likely because of the Old Testament which credited Saint Elias with the ability to bring rain and thunderstorms. Thus through these means, an obscure Christian saint became a major celebrity in Eastern Slavic Orthodoxy.

More Perrin and Elyas.

And last but not least, from this page:

Quote:
Perun also had another type of weapon in his arsenal, as destructive as his firestone arrows, but even more unusual: mythical golden apples. While this may not seem to be much of a weapon, in many Slavic folk accounts, the golden apple appears as a talisman of ultimate destruction. An example from a Serbian folk song with strong mythical elements relates:

... Te izvadi tri jabuke zlatne
I baci ih nebu u visine...
...Tri munje od neba pukoše
Jedna gađa dva djevera mlada,
Druga gađa pašu na dorinu,
Treća gađa svata šest stotina,
Ne uteče oka za svjedoka,
Ni da kaže, kako pogiboše.

"...Then he took out three apples of gold
And threw them high into the sky...
...Three lightning bolts burst from the sky,
One strikes at two young brothers-in-law,
Another strikes at pasha on a horse,
The third strikes six hundred wedding guests,
Not an eye for a witness fled
Not even to say, how they ended dead."

It is conjectured that mythical golden apples of Perun were symbols of a rare but notorious form of atmospheric discharge, ball lightning. The same is probably true for the thunder marks of East Slavic folklore, of which two examples are shown above.

There is a reference here probably to Perrin's apple trees marking the graves of his family, and possibly also to the Isle of Avalon, known for its apple orchards. The brothers-in-law...hard to say. Both of Faile's older brothers were killed, one of them in a fall from a horse, and that is how she became heir.
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if it refers somehow to Rand's upcoming wedding and his own brothers-in-law. The pasha most likely refers to Bashere; this would fit with the 'something dark'.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:45 AM
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I do not quite get your intention here. Are you simply pointing out some parallels or do you think they are really illuminating in predicting what is to happen in the series?

Anyhow, I would not put too much emphasis on this.
I do not think RJ tried to imitate in such a way. Those stories may have been a source of inspiration for the WoT but we cannot assume that they are any more than that.

A lot of this can be interpreted quite differently. And some of your interpretations are really far fetched.
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Old 08-17-2010, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaw View Post
I do not quite get your intention here. Are you simply pointing out some parallels or do you think they are really illuminating in predicting what is to happen in the series?
Both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaw
I do not think RJ tried to imitate in such a way.
Too bad RJ said otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaw
Those stories may have been a source of inspiration for the WoT but we cannot assume that they are any more than that.
What RJ said is that the events of WoT are supposed to be what really happened in the legends and myths of our world (which are garbled misremembrances).
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Old 08-17-2010, 07:02 AM
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Could you post or link those quotes here?
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaw View Post
Could you post or link those quotes here?
Have you considered checking the quote database that Terez has? RJ brings this theme (myths, legends, how they change, where he draws some of his ideas from) up many times for many questions. A little research goes a long way.

I checked wikipedia's article when Brandon posted that before, and it really led me to believe that Perrin will be instrumental in finding the song. Which again makes me think the song will be important in the final two books somehow. I think this is where most of the references to bringing life to things comes from. I can see how it, and the other links provided, helps support your theory though in terms of Rand's death and resurrection.

I wonder if Perrin will develop an ability, like Luc, to step in and out of TAR at will.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:35 AM
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interesting. Don't know enough about the Slavic Perun, but there is a Finnic equivalent which sort of overlaps with the Scandinavian Thor: In Estonian Pikker/Pikne, otherwise known as Taara or Tharapita or Uku
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In the Middle Ages, the pagan priests made animal sacrifices to Pikne. The most famous priest of Pikne (literally: thunder priest) was the seventeenth-century Jürgen of Wihtla, who uttered the following prayer:

Take it Pikne,
the bull we are offering
with two horns
and four hooves
for ploughing and harvesting
Pikne was protector of the holy river Võhandu in Võru County, and punished people who built mills there by sending them no rain. The incident along with the prayer was recorded by the pastor Johann Gutslaff in his work Kurtzer Bericht und Unterricht Von der Falsch-heilig genandten Bäche in Lieffland Wöhhanda (published in Tartu, 1644).

This prayer has been used by the Estonian composer Veljo Tormis in his 1974 choral work Litany to Thunder (text rendered into the Võro dialect of contemporary Southern Estonian and developed by the writer Ain Kaalep).

According to the myths collected by Matthias Johann Eisen, Pikne is the brother of Kõu and the son of Uku. The evil underworld god Vanatühi stole his whistle or bagpipes. Without blowing it, the gods couldn't help the farmers who were praying for rain. Uku was angered and sent Pikne back to Earth, where he worked as a farmhand. He visited a wedding, where he pretended to be a musician and regained his magic instrument (compare the Eddaic myth of Trymskvida).
Depending on the source you use, Pikker was either just a second name of Taara or Uku or the son of either of the two others. In Finnish mythology it's all about Ukko (also means "thunder")

Quote:
Originally Posted by again Wikipedia
Ukko ("old man") was a god of the sky, weather, and the crops. He was also the most significant god in Finnish mythology and the Finnish word for thunder, "ukkonen" (little Ukko) or "ukonilma" (Ukko's weather), is derived from his name. In the Kalevala he is also called "ylijumala" (overgod), as he is the god of things of the sky. He makes all his appearances in myths solely by natural effects when invoked.

Ukko's origins are probably in Baltic Perkons and the older Finnish sky god Ilmarinen. Also Thor is related to Perkons. While Ukko took Ilmarinen's position as the Sky God, Ilmarinen's destiny was to turn into a smith-hero, or the god the rock. In the epic poetry of the Kalevala, Ilmarinen is credited with forging the stars on the dome of the sky and the magic mill of plenty, the Sampo.

Ukko's weapon was a hammer, axe or sword, by which he struck lightning. While Ukko mated with his wife Akka ("old woman"), there was a thunderstorm. He created thunderstorms also by driving with his chariot in clouds. The original weapon of Ukko was probably the boat-shaped stone-axe of battle axe culture. Ukko's hammer, the Vasara (means merely "hammer"), probably meant originally the same thing as the boat-shaped stone axe. While stone tools were abandoned in the metal ages, the origins of stone-weapons became a mystery. They were believed to be weapons of Ukko, stone-heads of striking lightnings. Shamans collected and held stone-axes because they were believed to hold many powers to heal and to damage.

The viper with the saw-figure on its skin has been seen as a symbol of thunder.
*shrug* the most interesting finnic parallel to WoT I've come across is the belief that when people are bad or mean then the forest will simply go away and never come back. Kind of like Steddings.

also, kind of funny in an etymological sense: "peru" means a skittish, unmannered or untamed horse in Estonian. "Perkele" is a common curse-word in Finnish, meaning more or less "to the devil" or "to hell"
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaw View Post
Could you post or link those quotes here?
Even better:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 20 - Winds Rising


"How can you look at these dolphins and be unhappy, Thom?"

"They are free," he murmured, in such a tone that she was not sure he was answering her. "They have no decisions to make, no prices to pay. Not a worry in the world, except finding fish to eat. And sharks, I suppose. And lionfish. And likely a hundred more things I don't know. Perhaps it is not such an enviable life at that."

"Do you envy them?" He did not answer, but that was the wrong question anyway. She needed to make him smile again. No, laugh. For some reason she was sure if she could make him laugh, she would remember where she had seen him before. She chose another topic, one that should be nearer his heart. "Do you mean to compose the epic of Rand, Thom?" Epics were for bards, not gleemen, but there could be no harm in a little flattery. "The epic of the Dragon Reborn. Loial means to write a book, you know."

"Perhaps I will, Mistress Trakand. Perhaps. But neither my composing nor the Ogier's book will make much difference in the long run. Our stories will not survive, in the long run. When the next Age comes —" He grimaced, and tugged one of his mustaches. "Come to think of it, that may be no more than a year or two off. How is the end of an Age marked? It cannot always be a cataclysm on the order of the Breaking. But then, if the Prophecies are to be believed, this one will be. That is the trouble with prophecy. The original is always in the Old Tongue, and maybe High Chant as well: if you don't know what a thing means beforehand, there's no way to puzzle it out. Does it mean what it says, or is it a flowery way of saying something entirely different?"

"You were talking of your epic," she said, trying to guide him back, but he shook his shaggy white head.

"I was talking of change. My epic, if I compose it – and Loial's book – will be no more than seed, if we are both lucky. Those who know the truth will die, and their grandchildren's grandchildren will remember something different. And their grandchildren's grandchildren something else again. Two dozen generations, and you may be the hero of it, not Rand."

"Me?" she laughed.

"Or maybe Mat, or Lan. Or even myself." He grinned at her, warming his weathered face. "Thom Merrilin. Not a gleeman – but what? Who can say? Not eating fire, but breathing it. Hurling it about like an Aes Sedai." He flourished his cloak. "Thom Merrilin, the mysterious hero, toppling mountains and raising up kings." The grin became a rich belly laugh. "Rand al'Thor may be lucky if the next Age remembers his name correctly."

She was right; it was not just a feeling. That face, that mirth-filled laugh; she did remember them. But from where? She had to keep him talking. "Does it always happen that way? I do not think anyone doubts, say, that Artur Hawkwing conquered an empire. The whole world, or near enough."

"Hawkwing, young Mistress? He made an empire, all right, but do you think he did everything the books and stories and epics say he did? The way they say he did it? Killed the hundred best men of an opposing army, one by one? The two armies just stood there while one of the generals – a king – fought a hundred duels?"

"The books say he did."

"There isn't time between sunrise and sunset for one man to fight a hundred duels, girl."

She almost stopped him short – girl? She was Daughter Heir of Andor, not girl – but he had the bit in his teeth. "And that is only a thousand years back. Go back further, back to the oldest tales I know, from the Age before the Age of Legends. Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants? Was Elsbet really queen of the whole world, and was Anla really her sister? Was Anla truly the Wise Counselor, or was it someone else? As well ask what sort of animal ivory comes from, or what kind of plant grows silk. Unless that comes from an animal, too."
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
In Brandon's spiel on Facebook about Gawain/Gawyn, he mentioned that we should look up Perun for Perrin. I looked up the Wikipedia page at the time, and found it interesting...but as I was working on my new version of Le Morte d'AlThor, it occurred to me that since I am incorporating Perrin into it that I should dig deeper on Perun. I'm glad I did.

I found this page so far, and there are several clues there as to how events might play out.
...
I think you might be trying to tie Perun to Perrin a bit too closely. With Norse mythology RJ mixed and matched signature traits across all three of the Three Amigos; at first glance, it would seem that he's done the same for Perun and Slavic mythology.
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Old 08-17-2010, 02:50 PM
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I think you might be trying to tie Perun to Perrin a bit too closely.
Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
With Norse mythology RJ mixed and matched signature traits across all three of the Three Amigos; at first glance, it would seem that he's done the same for Perun and Slavic mythology.
Yes dear, I know. Obviously many of Perun's characteristics have nothing to do with Perrin. I only quoted the ones that do, or might.

I am so tired of mindless contrarianism.
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:18 PM
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@Weird Harold: Come up with an example where it better fits someone else then. To my read Perun matches Perrin rather well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Quote:
In Slavic mythology, the world was represented by a sacred tree, usually an oak, whose branches and trunk represented the living world of heavens and mortals, while its roots represented the underworld, i.e. the realm of dead.

This is presumably a parallel to Avendesora (there are plenty enough of those...and of course an important one in the Odin stories).
This seems more like TAR than Avendesora. I don't see any direct connection to Avendesora other than that they are both trees, though it certainly could have something to do with Avendesora being named the tree of life in this age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Red eagle?
He also has a nice birds eye view when he's superman running around TAR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Quote:
Zaltys /Veles continually provoked Perun by stealing his cattle, children or wife.

Slayer didn't steal Faile, but she was stolen. And Luc did try flirting with Faile.
Slayer also brought the Trollocs to the Two Rivers and Perrin did lose his family, though that was to Fain, not Slayer, even though Perrin does believe the Trollocs were responsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
This very much resembles Perrin chasing Slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod.
As well as the Two Rivers campaign. Until that last dream, Perrin never managed to hurt Slayer directly, others suffered in his place.

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Originally Posted by Terez
Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again.
Very interesting. Strongly supportive of Perrin playing a role in Rand's ressurection IMO, especially with making Rand's body whole, and therefore making the land whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
but the other part is so that his body can be healed of his never-healing wounds.
Exactly. It's hard to see how death itself won't just physically heal Rand though. I wonder what role Perrin will play in the actual resurrection. I've always seen him as playing more of a Cadsuane at the Clensing role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
When Perrin defeats Slayer, then it will be safe to resurrect Rand.
That's how I see it too, but reading this makes me wonder if Perrin might also play a more direct role as well. Maybe Perrin will be needed to actually find Rand? IDK I'm just brainstorming at this point, but I just get the impression Perrin's role will be larger than just defeating Slayer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I think this might be a clue to why Perrin is compelled to learn the Wolf Dream, and Hopper's warnings about he comes there too strongly. It was the same when he rescued Faile in TDR; he was there too strongly, but it was necessary to save her. I think Perrin might be in danger of slipping almost completely into Tel'aran'rhiod - and into death - when he hunts Slayer the final time. It might also be a clue that he needs to go there 'too strongly' in order to do what he has to do with the trees and all.
While he may need to go their "too strongly" at some point, I think it is more important that he learn control from Hopper. I suspect that Hopper has things to teach Perrin what would make the Aiel dreamwalkers ears perk up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Quote:
In other stories the representative of Perun recovers gems or treasures which evil spirits have hidden away within mountains or under deep waters

The Eye of the World?
The Eye fits "under deep waters" and Manetheren would fit "within mountains" rather well I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Quote:
This flame colored bird usually appeared in the critical moment and pointed with its wing the direction in which an army should go. Everyone knew that either glory or a glorious death awaited the warriors and the prince had no choice but to follow the bird's lead.

This might be some reference to Aram, or maybe to the Tinkers as a whole.
Maybe the wolves as an early shadowspawn detection system? Bright colors does suggest Tinkers though, but I have trouble seeing them pointing to a glorious death.

From this page:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Quote:
Many scholars see the origin of music, use of musical instruments and bells, and the beating of drums as attempts to imitate the voice of Perun, and part of the magical efforts to protect the world from the evil forces and spirits.

Perrin says he sounds like a stepped-on frog when singing...but seed-singing required deep voices. That is why only men and Ogier participated. Perhaps there is some significance here; Perrin might actually have a nice bass voice, so low that people made fun of him for it when he sang.
I don't actually recall the bolded bit, I thought it was just a Talent. Quote?

IIRC seed-singing used the One Power as much as the Voice... I see where Perrin will get channelers from, where will he find an Ogier? I'm trying to figure out how exactly this works. Raising Manetheren also works as an example, but I feel it's a less satisfying one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Quote:
Perun also had another type of weapon in his arsenal, as destructive as his firestone arrows, but even more unusual: mythical golden apples. While this may not seem to be much of a weapon, in many Slavic folk accounts, the golden apple appears as a talisman of ultimate destruction. An example from a Serbian folk song with strong mythical elements relates:
IIRC in Greek Mythology golden apples weren't a direct weapon, but rather something that would, for some reason, create a shitstorm. People would compete like mad over them, or Aries had apples he would throw to start wars.

I would think that the three apples might be situations that Perrin created in order to bring the metaphoric hammer down upon somebody.

Three apples:
Dumai's Wells
Shaidosmash
Last Battle?

Last edited by Neilbert; 08-17-2010 at 11:24 PM.
  #11  
Old 08-18-2010, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilbert View Post
This seems more like TAR than Avendesora. I don't see any direct connection to Avendesora other than that they are both trees, though it certainly could have something to do with Avendesora being named the tree of life in this age.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be one or the other, or either for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
He also has a nice birds eye view when he's superman running around TAR.
He also has supervision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
It's hard to see how death itself won't just physically heal Rand though.
It will, of course. But Perrin has Morgase. He has to keep her away so that Rand can die. That's why I'm torn on Min's Perrin viewing. If he's not there with Morgase, it will appear to be very, very bad...but it won't be really because Rand has to die (because of Moridin). So I don't know if that would fulfill it or not (though of course Min would put it together once Perrin showed up with Morgase, and she'd probably think it was fulfilled whether or not it actually was). The Slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod thing, on the other hand...we're talking permanent death, here. That's pretty freaking bad. And as for Dumai's Wells....that could have easily led to Rand being turned to the Shadow, once he was in the Tower. Fate Worse Than Death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I wonder what role Perrin will play in the actual resurrection. I've always seen him as playing more of a Cadsuane at the Cleansing role.
Eh...I think his part in the resurrection just with Slayer might be enough. Of course, after that, he'll have to lead the wolves in the Last Battle. That's another hint that he might be dead at the time...he could possibly lead the dead ones to fight when the Horn is blown that way. And I'm guessing this would be his first turn as a Hero...either that, or his first life in memory that is connected to wolves. Birgitte didn't seem to know him, though, and she asked him if he was ta'veren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
That's how I see it too, but reading this makes me wonder if Perrin might also play a more direct role as well. Maybe Perrin will be needed to actually find Rand? IDK I'm just brainstorming at this point, but I just get the impression Perrin's role will be larger than just defeating Slayer.
The reason I'm pretty sure Nynaeve will be the one to find Rand is because she was the first one that was taught how to use Need, and that is of course where we get the lecture from the Wise Ones about how dangerous it is, the whole searching blind and pit of vipers thing. Nynaeve might teach Perrin how to use Need, if he happens to be up front and honest about it, but I'm thinking it's more likely that they will randomly cross paths in Tel'aran'rhiod sort of like Nynaeve did with Rand after she captured Moghedien, rather than all planned out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
While he may need to go their "too strongly" at some point, I think it is more important that he learn control from Hopper. I suspect that Hopper has things to teach Perrin what would make the Aiel dreamwalkers' ears perk up.
Perhaps. Hopper seems resistant to teaching Perrin, but with Shadowkiller in danger, Hopper would surely help. I'm wondering why Perrin doesn't ask Elyas about it. Hopper doesn't think like a human at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I don't actually recall the bolded bit, I thought it was just a Talent. Quote?
From memory, because I'm lazy and you should know this one (), something like: 'The women had finally said his voice was deep enough to join the seed-singing'...and the women did not participate. Only the men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
IIRC seed-singing used the One Power as much as the Voice... I see where Perrin will get channelers from, where will he find an Ogier?
Do you mean where would he find a Nym? I have no idea, unless Someshta has become a Hero of the Horn (which I would not doubt at all). Nynaeve could be doing a lot of ripping...Rand, Lan, Someshta, and maybe even Perrin if he goes there too strongly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
I'm trying to figure out how exactly this works. Raising Manetheren also works as an example, but I feel it's a less satisfying one.
I dunno how it works. I just know that Perrin is tied to the Tinkers, and that Perun is tied to singing, and that Perrin is tied to trees flowering all around him. It may be that the land can be healed from inside Tel'aran'rhiod, as Rand's body is healed. Though it's hard to see how that would involve Perrin, since death should automatically heal Rand's wounds.

There are a lot of possibilities here, but the more I read about it, the more I think that seed-singing will have something to do with the end game. Maybe just healing the land, but maybe also sealing the Bore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
IIRC in Greek Mythology golden apples weren't a direct weapon, but rather something that would, for some reason, create a shitstorm. People would compete like mad over them, or Aries had apples he would throw to start wars.

I would think that the three apples might be situations that Perrin created in order to bring the metaphoric hammer down upon somebody.
Well, it does seem to tie too neatly to Faile's two brothers and her father, especially the pasha bit...and the fact that the death of all three is what makes her claim to the throne solid, aside from Tenobia. Maybe the wedding will be Tenobia's. It was rather emphasized that she would never get married, and that is what led a lot of people to think Faile would be queen before the series was done. And of course, that requires Tenobia to die...but there's nothing to say she won't get married first, just to tweak our noses.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Neilbert View Post
@Weird Harold: Come up with an example where it better fits someone else then. To my read Perun matches Perrin rather well.
Perun pursued Zaltys /Veles around the earth, attacking him with his lightning bolts from the sky.
Both Rand and Mat are more likely to be the source of thunder and lightning legends than Perrin.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:24 AM
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The nifty thing about RJ is that it doesn't have to be one or the other.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:29 AM
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You don't think Mr. Wealthy and Prosperous Nation in a Month isn't going to get weaponry from Mr. Best Friend and Inventor of Cannon before the Last Battle? All Mat needs is a schematic and Perrin's attention, and there is a likely meeting.

Neo-Manetheren is a perfect example of a manufacturing base for cannon. I wonder what kind of mineral reserves are in the Mountains of Mist.
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Old 08-18-2010, 04:21 AM
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I think the most important connection is the rain and fertility thing, rather than thunder and lightning specifically. Of course, Perrin's hammer goes back to Thor and Perun before him.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:17 AM
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Actually, I think that Perrin is going to get the entire Band of the Red Hand. I don't see them becoming Seanchan henchmen, and tying them to the resurrected Manetheren would be a very obvious alternative.
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Old 08-18-2010, 06:29 AM
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Actually, I think that Perrin is going to get the entire Band of the Red Hand. I don't see them becoming Seanchan henchmen, and tying them to the resurrected Manetheren would be a very obvious alternative.
They are not Seanchan henchmen; they are Mat's men. And Mat happens to be a high Seanchan official, or will be once he consummates his marriage, thus fulfilling the 'two must be as one'.
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Old 08-18-2010, 08:22 AM
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I do agree with what you are generally headed at, that Perrin is connected to fertility and that his role could be to rebuild or heal the land.

The Song is the Song of Growing, it helps you grow things, it is not a "you win instantly" card. The Tinkers just put more into this than there really is the Aiel history shows, they seek an ideal state of being and the "song" is a metaphor for that.
So I would rather put this whole Song-theme after the Last Battle.
If you tie it into the "Rand will be healed in TAR" theory, it fits rather nicely with his connection to the land, I agree.


But I think your argument becomes somewhat weak if you tie it too closely to the story (as in to predict particular events).

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The nifty thing about RJ is that it doesn't have to be one or the other.
This means we can interpret a myth in many different ways. We can never be sure which parts are important and which parts are not, how many myths he combined anyway.

This is what you say yourself regarding thunder:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I think the most important connection is the rain and fertility thing, rather than thunder and lightning specifically. Of course, Perrin's hammer goes back to Thor and Perun before him.
So while thunder and lightning are important to Perun, it is you that thinks they are less important than the "rain and fertility thing".
So some things are very important, some things are less important?
Some things are only general themes, while others point to events that will actually occur?

Don't you think this is contradictory? Who decides what is important? Who decides what is a general theme and what refers to particular events?

For example:
Quote:
What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being.
You point out that Rands girls could be the "three women, the fortune tellers". While I don't find this entirely convincing, it could be.
But what about the "two springs"? What about the "bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon"?

The problem with your line of argument is that you only see the parts that fit your ideas (I am not saying they are bad ideas), while the rest is simply not so important to you and can therefore be more or less ignored.
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:17 AM
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This is similar to the parallels of Ogier the Dane. They have things that make you think "Oh!" and then other places they don't match very well. I think it's enough to be able to say he used it and that there is correlation, you just have to figure out what he's going to do with it. It's a pretty sweet way to keep you guessing. Here are the links for Ogier the Dane and Holger Carlsen, if anyone is interested.

The odd thing is that he carries a sword, called Curtana and I don't think any of the ogier carry swords. I've been on the lookout for anything that might be close to curtana but I haven't really found anything yet.

A couple of things that stick out to me,

Quote:
In some versions, Morgue le Faye (commonly known today as Morgan le Fay) takes him to Avalon, from where he returns after two hundred years to save France. According to the tour guides of Kronborg Castle, legend has it that Holger sat down in his present location after walking all the way from his complete battles in France.
And from the link about Three Hearts and Three Lions

Quote:
After an explosion, he finds himself carried to a parallel universe, which proves to have the Matter of France as its historical past. There he finds that the evil of Faerie is encroaching on humanity. His quest finally leads him to discover that he is Ogier the Dane, sent to this universe by Morgan le Fay, and to fight the battle that drives back the evil.

I realize that the timelines are screwy, but it still draws some parallels. There are tons of things about Ogier the Dane that almost make sense, and then you find out about Ogier street in Charleston and you wonder if you are just grasping.

I wish I wasn't at work and had more time to go through it, but I don't right now.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Both.


Too bad RJ said otherwise.


What RJ said is that the events of WoT are supposed to be what really happened in the legends and myths of our world (which are garbled misremembrances).
I'm not denying that, but geeze you put waaay too much emphasis on using legend to forecast plot developments. Here, I'll play.

Quote:
What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being.

Min knows the future, and Aviendha will have just returned from her trip through the columns to see the past. Elayne...not sure how she can be said to see the present any more than the other two, but she will be the one to lay the bond on Rand.
Nah, the three people are the three ta'veran. Perrin represents the future, the way of the leaf in a world without shadow. Rand represents the past, a legend reborn to fight his eternal enemy. Mat represents the present; one foot in the past with his battle knowledge, one foot in the future with gunpower, his choices shape the present day.

Or you could say that Rand represents the present, the war with the shadow, and Mat represents the past with all the dead memories bouncing around in his brain.

No wait, the three women are actually Amys, Bair, and Melanie, and what is being described is part of the ceremony to become a wise woman. Slayer (the snake demon) will rudely interrupt the ritual taking place at Avendsora (the world tree), but never fear, Berelin (the bird of paradise, the hawk) will appear out of nowhere to cheer Aviendha onto victory. Buy your tickets now!

Of course I don't believe any of the above stuff. But its the same bad process you're using.

Last edited by knightofround; 08-18-2010 at 01:53 PM.
 


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