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  #21  
Old 07-18-2011, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
As someone who chooses his words and uses language so carefully, it would be logical to assume that RJ would understand there may be multiple meanings to a word and would choose to use the most commonly understood one, in a conversation with the general public, for instance, hence why he would say Shaidar Haran is not an avatar in the sense we normally understand the term, but he could still be Gonzo's second type - RJ would just avoid using that in order not to confuse the audience. He's normally very clear except when he's deliberately not - see the debate over the meaning of "Translation" in "Book of Translation" for example.
Yep, RJ was infallible. He knew everything and was never wrong. Those countless typos he has in his book were also intentional/deliberate since he chooses his words very carefully...
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  #22  
Old 07-18-2011, 01:59 PM
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Yep, RJ was infallible. He knew everything and was never wrong. Those countless typos he has in his book were also intentional/deliberate since he chooses his words very carefully...
How was that even in any way connected to what I said? I didn't say RJ was infallible - I said he'd choose the most commonly understood definition of a word. I don't know why you've decided to attack me over this but it was completely uncalled for.
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  #23  
Old 07-18-2011, 03:55 PM
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Agreed. Juan, if you're not going to post with intent to speak to something remotely related to the OP, then please don't bother.
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  #24  
Old 07-18-2011, 03:59 PM
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There was a Fade in aCoS that was angry about being tied to shayol Ghul but I can't find it. It may be that the SH prototypes are fairly independent of will. In that sense, they may not be avatars at all.

Two things I'd like to know. First is SH outside the pattern? As in being connected to the DO and also ultilizing the TP. Did we ever agree if the TP puts one outside the pattern?

Second Q is what are his (SH) limits? Is he one or many?

I'm guessing SH came about from a breeding experiment, mixing a channeler with the trolloc stock resulting in a fade that can channel. Definitely some experiments must have been going on at some point that resulted in the Isam/Luc hybrid. And that was even before Aginor was transmigrated.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:33 PM
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There was a Fade in aCoS that was angry about being tied to shayol Ghul but I can't find it. It may be that the SH prototypes are fairly independent of will. In that sense, they may not be avatars at all.
Is this the passage you're thinking of?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoS, Chapter 40, Spears
The Myrddraal moved from the deeper shadows, becoming visible. In its eyes, the gateways had left a residue - three patches of glowing mist. It could not tell one flow from another, but it could distinguish saidin from saidar by the smell. Saidin smelled like the sharp edge of a knife, the point of a thorn. Saidar smelled soft, but like something that would grow harder the harder it was pressed. No other Myrddraal could smell that difference. Shaidar Haran was like no other Myrddraal.

Picking up a discarded spear, Shaidar Haran used it to upend the bag Sammael had discarded, and then to stir the bits of stone that fell out. Much was happening outside the plan. Would these events churn chaos, or...

Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haranís hand, the hand of the Hand of the Shadow. In an instant the wooden haft was charred and twisted; the spearhead dropped off. The Myrddraal let the blackened stick fall and dusted soot from its palm. If Sammael served chaos, then all was well. If not...

A sudden ache climbed the back of its neck; a faint weakness washed along its limbs. Too long away from Shayol Ghul. That tie had to be severed somehow. With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of shadow that it needed. The day was coming. It would come.
  #26  
Old 07-18-2011, 05:09 PM
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you could blame the typos more on the editing than RJ himself since it's his job to write the story and the editors job to make sure grammer is correct.
  #27  
Old 07-18-2011, 06:27 PM
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Is this the passage you're thinking of?
If so, I've always argued that it doesn't indicate Shaidar Haran has a will independent of the Dark One. If Shaidar Haran is some sort of avatar, the Dark One would still want him to be able to roam freely away from Shayol Ghul. If anything, it's indirect and very circumstantial evidence that Shaidar Haran is tied directly to Big Bad--it still suffers the limitations of the prison.
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  #28  
Old 07-18-2011, 06:57 PM
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@zombie and ishara
No need to get so defensive-- it's all good. All I'm saying I'd that in the previous passage both of you wrote whether intentional or not, you come across as if saying how great and perfect RJ is. You're not the only ones that come across this way but it really bothers me because you should remember that he's a human being like everyone else. It's like reading a metaphor and other literary tools into everything he does. That's ridiculous. Again just saying keep the whole RJ is human in mind.

I know you didn't outright say he was as describe previously. But you come off that way, whether intentional or not. I wrote this twice just to clear up any possible confusion. :P
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  #29  
Old 07-18-2011, 07:23 PM
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@zombie and ishara
No need to get so defensive-- it's all good. All I'm saying I'd that in the previous passage both of you wrote whether intentional or not, you come across as if saying how great and perfect RJ is. You're not the only ones that come across this way but it really bothers me because you should remember that he's a human being like everyone else. It's like reading a metaphor and other literary tools into everything he does. That's ridiculous. Again just saying keep the whole RJ is human in mind.

I know you didn't outright say he was as describe previously. But you come off that way, whether intentional or not. I wrote this twice just to clear up any possible confusion. :P
coming off a metaphysics bender where I learned just how fallible RJ is, I must confess that I laughed.

On topic...
Shaidar Haran appeared to be going to engage Rand at the beginning of TGH, in Fal Dara. Would he have killed him? was he not/never under Ishamael's control? When exactly did Ishamael first approve killing Rand?

Shaidar Haran also seems to be the one who sammael 'can't override'. How long has Shaidar haran wanted rand dead? is he largely independent of the Nae'blis?
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  #30  
Old 07-18-2011, 07:31 PM
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coming off a metaphysics bender where I learned just how fallible RJ is, I must confess that I laughed.

On topic...
Shaidar Haran appeared to be going to engage Rand at the beginning of TGH, in Fal Dara. Would he have killed him? was he not/never under Ishamael's control? When exactly did Ishamael first approve killing Rand?

Shaidar Haran also seems to be the one who sammael 'can't override'. How long has Shaidar haran wanted rand dead? is he largely independent of the Nae'blis?
Have you ever read Stephen King's The Drawing of the Three? In it Roland Deschain rides around in minds of the three. At first he only can act as an observer, but later learns to take over control of them. I wonder if Shaidar Haran is similar, and if this explains the progression of Shaidar Haran. At first, the DO used him as a passenger, seeing the world through him, but due to the number of still functional seals, could do no more. Then as the seals broke, his ability to assume greater control over his "hand" grew, or perhaps he was able to place more of himself within this Myrddraal vessel. That would make Shaidar Haran similar to an avatar, but not quite, thus allowing for RJ's response.
  #31  
Old 07-18-2011, 07:37 PM
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Have you ever read Stephen King's The Drawing of the Three? In it Roland Deschain rides around in minds of the three. At first he only can act as an observer, but later learns to take over control of them. I wonder if Shaidar Haran is similar, and if this explains the progression of Shaidar Haran. At first, the DO used him as a passenger, seeing the world through him, but due to the number of still functional seals, could do no more. Then as the seals broke, his ability to assume greater control over his "hand" grew, or perhaps he was able to place more of himself within this Myrddraal vessel. That would make Shaidar Haran similar to an avatar, but not quite, thus allowing for RJ's response.
and explaining the progressive change in purpose, goals, and personality from that of a blunt instrument to a punisher of the chosen.

never read it, but you planted the necessary seeds for further thought. many thanks.
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  #32  
Old 07-19-2011, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
On topic...
Shaidar Haran appeared to be going to engage Rand at the beginning of TGH, in Fal Dara. Would he have killed him? was he not/never under Ishamael's control? When exactly did Ishamael first approve killing Rand?
Maybe in general, having someone (whether a Forsaken or someone else) kill the Dragon would be bad for the DO, but having the DO defeat the Dragon, no matter when, would be good.
In that case, Ishamael would have had orders not to kill Rand unless it was absolutely necessary, but SH would not hesitate to kill him whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Just like Demandred, who is willing to kill Lews Therin anywhere, anytime, but would be mightily put out if someone else did it.
  #33  
Old 07-19-2011, 04:46 AM
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Maybe in general, having someone (whether a Forsaken or someone else) kill the Dragon would be bad for the DO, but having the DO defeat the Dragon, no matter when, would be good.
In that case, Ishamael would have had orders not to kill Rand unless it was absolutely necessary, but SH would not hesitate to kill him whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Just like Demandred, who is willing to kill Lews Therin anywhere, anytime, but would be mightily put out if someone else did it.
So... following the theme that shaidar haran is an (i call it as i see it, words rarely have fixed meanings anyway) avatar of the dark one? for instance, ishamael follows orders, but as SH IS a projection of the DO's will, his actions are always in line with the will of the DO (he is the orders)?

also...
myrdraal aren't sterile, but their sperm kill both human and trolloc ova on contact (an odd thing for RJ to have defined/clarified...I will take it as further confirmation that a LOT of thought was put into the series and its world)
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2011, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Juan View Post
@zombie and ishara
No need to get so defensive-- it's all good. All I'm saying I'd that in the previous passage both of you wrote whether intentional or not, you come across as if saying how great and perfect RJ is. You're not the only ones that come across this way but it really bothers me because you should remember that he's a human being like everyone else. It's like reading a metaphor and other literary tools into everything he does. That's ridiculous. Again just saying keep the whole RJ is human in mind.

I know you didn't outright say he was as describe previously. But you come off that way, whether intentional or not. I wrote this twice just to clear up any possible confusion. :P
Explaining yur thoughts as opposed to leaving snarky one-liners is a good way to be sure you're misinterpreted.

Also, LOL. I have *never* suggested that RJ was perfect or infallable. Just that he put a lot of thought into his world, his characters and his plots. He is an author. By way of trade, they choose their words carefully. They have tend to have a better command of the language than most, and in RJ's case this was definite. The man was no dummy. Not perfect, but no dummy either.

Besides which, you should hear what I think about Guy Gavriel Kay if you want me to start preaching on how great and perfect an author is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
So... following the theme that shaidar haran is an (i call it as i see it, words rarely have fixed meanings anyway) avatar of the dark one? for instance, ishamael follows orders, but as SH IS a projection of the DO's will, his actions are always in line with the will of the DO (he is the orders)?

also...
myrdraal aren't sterile, but their sperm kill both human and trolloc ova on contact (an odd thing for RJ to have defined/clarified...I will take it as further confirmation that a LOT of thought was put into the series and its world)
Exactly (to the first bolded section). That is how I interpret that RJ interview answer to WSB.

Quote please (to the second bolded section). This sounds like conjecture, especially in the face of the other quote regarding their sterility.
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2011, 02:26 PM
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If Shaidar Haran is an avatar of the Dark One, why would it seek to break its connection to Shayol Ghul? It seems to me there are two possible answers to this. First, he is NOT strictly speaking an avatar of the Dark One, and seeks a bit of autonomy. Second, he IS an avatar of the Dark One, and was referring to after the Final Battle when he would have more freedom to roam the world due to the Dark One having more free access to touching the world.

If Shaidar Haran is an avatar for the Dark One, we need to consider why he has yet to take an active role in the series instead of relying on underlings to act in his stead. I don't have the books in front of me (on vacation!), but let's consider a possible connection which might explain this. Terez has a theory that the CAPITALIZED VOICE in the climactic battle in the Eye of the World is the Dark One. In the conversation between Rand and The Voice, The Voice states that he (it) cannot interfere. If this is (roughly speaking) a Prime Directive for the Dark One, and if Shaidar Haran is the avatar of the Dark One, then it makes sense that Shaidar Haran has yet to overtly act instead of relying on those who serve him.

That's all I've got for now. I'll post more musings later if I think of anything interesting.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by fdsaf3 View Post
If Shaidar Haran is an avatar of the Dark One, why would it seek to break its connection to Shayol Ghul? It seems to me there are two possible answers to this. First, he is NOT strictly speaking an avatar of the Dark One, and seeks a bit of autonomy. Second, he IS an avatar of the Dark One, and was referring to after the Final Battle when he would have more freedom to roam the world due to the Dark One having more free access to touching the world.

If Shaidar Haran is an avatar for the Dark One, we need to consider why he has yet to take an active role in the series instead of relying on underlings to act in his stead. I don't have the books in front of me (on vacation!), but let's consider a possible connection which might explain this. Terez has a theory that the CAPITALIZED VOICE in the climactic battle in the Eye of the World is the Dark One. In the conversation between Rand and The Voice, The Voice states that he (it) cannot interfere. If this is (roughly speaking) a Prime Directive for the Dark One, and if Shaidar Haran is the avatar of the Dark One, then it makes sense that Shaidar Haran has yet to overtly act instead of relying on those who serve him.That's all I've got for now. I'll post more musings later if I think of anything interesting.
Interesting musings...

We have quotes to lead us in the direction that Shaidar Haran is the Dark One in Myrdraal form, as opposed to a Mrydraal made special that seeks its own autonomy.

I believe the desire for more time away from Shayol Ghul is more related to his ability to act more than it is about hating it there. I mean, all the action is in the world, away from Shayol Ghul, so I can't say that I blame him.

As to the acting overtly piece, we also have quotes from Brandon that most actions currently ascribed to Shaidar Haran are actually made by minions, such as Elsa. Case in point, the collar. It's very debatable exactly how much he can actually impose himself on the world around him.
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  #37  
Old 07-19-2011, 02:38 PM
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If Shaidar Haran is an avatar of the Dark One, why would it seek to break its connection to Shayol Ghul?
Why wouldn't it? The connection to Shayol Ghul is a limitation regardless of any level of free will on the part of Shaidar Haran. The Dark One would want his avatar or incarnation to have as much freedom as possible.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:53 PM
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@crisp
Right. I see it akin to an extreme version of the ogier longing. If shaidar haran can't stay away from shayol ghul for prolonged periods of time, it reduces it's effectiveness as avatar/proxy/whatever you wanna call it of the dark one.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:55 PM
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Kimon got me thinking. Maybe SH indeed is controlled more and more by later versions. Maybe the versions are linked to how many seals are broken. So when Rand breaks the remaining ones we see SH = DO's avatar? I've been thinking why DO actually needs anyone to do his work? It's quite similar to why SH needs someone to do his work. Why?

Maybe the battle is coming too soon for DO too?

And why DO did not do whatever he is suppose to do now when the seals are broken, I.e. bore is open again, when he was free last time after Mierin et al drilling the hole last time?
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Let's also cast our minds back to the other incarnations of Shaidar Haran please. We saw 0.5 in Whitebridge - where else have we seen other incarnations?
We definitely saw this Myrddraal at the Stag and Lion. I present the entire short encounter between Rand and Shaidar Haran v0.5:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ

The Eye of the World
CHAPTER 17: Watchers and Hunters

As he came out of the kitchen, drinking, a shape in dull black started toward him down the length of the hall, raising pale hands to toss back the dark cowl that had hidden the face beneath. The cloak hung motionless as the figure moved, and the face...A man's face, but pasty white, like a slug under a rock, and eyeless. From oily black hair to puffy cheeks was as smooth as an eggshell. Rand choked, spraying milk.

"You are one of them, boy," the Fade said, a hoarse whisper like a file softly drawn across bone.

Dropping the mug, Rand backed away. He wanted to run, but it was all he could do to make his feet take one halting step at a time. He could not break free of that eyeless face; his gaze was held, and his stomach curdled. He tried to shout for help, to scream; his throat was like stone. Every ragged breath hurt.

The Fade glided closer, in no hurry. Its strides had a sinuous, deadly grace, like a viper, the resemblance emphasized by the overlapping black plates of armor down its chest. Thin, bloodless lips curved into a cruel smile, made more mocking by the smooth, pale skin where eyes should have been. The voice made Bornhald's seem warm and soft. "Where are the others? I know they are here. Speak, boy, and I will let you live."

Rand's back struck wood, a wall or a door--he could not make himself look around to see which. Now that his feet had stopped, he could not make them start again. He shivered, watching the Myrddraal slither nearer. His shaking grew harder with every slow stride.

"Speak, I say, or--"

From above came a quick clatter of boots, from the stairs up the hall, and the Myrddraal cut off, whirling. The cloak hung still. For an instant, the Fade's head tilted, as if that gaze could pierce the wooden wall. A sword appeared in a dead-white hand, blade as black as the cloak. The light in the hall seemed to grow dimmer in the presence of that blade. The pounding of boots grew louder, and the Fade spun back to Rand, an almost boneless movement. The black blade rose; narrow lips peeled back in a rictus snarl.

Trembling, Rand knew he was going to die. Midnight steel flashed at his head...and stopped.

"You belong to the Great Lord of the Dark." The breathy grating of that voice sounded like fingernails scratched across a slate. "You are his."

Spinning in a black blur, the Fade darted down the hall away from Rand. The shadows at the end of the hall reached out and embraced it, and it was gone.
According to the Forsaken, including Mr. Aginor, regular Myrddraal don't smile because they have no sense of humor. If someone could help out with the quote supporting this, it's found toward the end of the prologue to Lord of Chaos, in the section introducing the 'gars (also, 1st appearance of SH).

The underlined bits I'll get to in a moment. First, a perspective from Fain on this very same "Myrddraal:"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ

The Eye of the World
CHAPTER 47: More Tales of the Wheel

"Did Fain follow us through the Ways?" Perrin asked. "He must have done."

Moiraine nodded. "Fain would follow the three of you to the grave, because he must. When the Myrddraal failed at Emond's Field, it brought Fain with the Trollocs on our trail. The Fade would not let Fain ride with him; although he thought he should have the best horse in the Two Rivers and ride at the head of the band, the Myrddraal forced him to run with the Trollocs, and the Trollocs to carry him when his feet gave out. They talked so that he could understand, arguing about the best way to cook him when his usefulness was done. Fain claims he turned against the Dark One before they reached the Taren. But sometimes his greed for his promised rewards seeps into the open.

"When we had escaped across the Taren the Myrddraal took the Trollocs back to the closest Waygate, in the Mountains of Mist, and sent Fain across alone. He thought he was free then, but before he reached Baerlon another Fade found him, and that one was not so kind. It made him sleep doubled up on himself in a Trolloc kettle at night, to remind him of the price of failure. That one used him as far as Shadar Logoth. By then Fain was willing to give the Myrddraal his mother if it would free him, but the Dark One never willingly loosens a hold he has gained.
OK, so we've established that this Myrddraal picked up Fain before he reached Baerlon, which means that this is the same Myrddraal Fain reported Rand's presence at The Stag and Lion to, which means this is the same Myrddraal that met with Rand in the above passage. This Myrddraal is shown to be capable of sensing humor, and being cruel enough that Moiraine makes a distinction about Fain's treatment at his hands versus his treatment by the previous Myrddraal he'd traveled with.

As for the rest, the bits I've underlined in the passages above are items that I wanted to draw attention to with regard to possible unique capabilities of this 'model' of SH prototype. Any or all of these could be considered to be properties of Myrddraal in general, but I want to keep my mind open to the possibility (however far-fetched) any/all Myrddraal present in TEotW could be one of these SH prototypes (if you were the Dark One, wouldn't you have it this way?), and I don't have any other books with me to supply additional quotes about generic Myrddraal. I'm working on a full-blown theory for all of this, so it's all speculation, but I felt the need to point out this Baerlon incident as definitive evidence that this SH prototype existed prior to any of the timeline examples given on this thread to date.
 

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