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  #1  
Old 01-02-2009, 09:10 PM
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Default Palestine Troubles...

So does anyone have an opinion on the current issues?

Personally, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Israel...they're the little engine that could when it comes to winning wars. Attacking the Gaza Strip is a slightly different scenario...they're more like a big kid with a bat beating up a 5 year old that throws rocks at them for fun. Part of the problem is that Hamas has been rearming and getting more advanced armaments from Iran and its rumored that these weapons are making some very sensitive Israeli sites vulnerable to attack due to their range. The latest RUMINT states that the Israeli nuclear research center is threatened by the random missile/rocket attacks from the Strip and that is a big part of the suppresion efforts from the IDF.

Personally, I think Israel simply got sick of having missiles slung at it and is taking advantage of America's current lameduck administration to take care of some internal business. They'll almost certainly stop in a few more days and say pretend like Obama convinced them to see reason. This will have the effects of maintaining the influence of the Israeli lobby, making Obama feel good, sucking up to the most important man in the world to Israel in the U.S. president and accomplishing some dismantlement of the Hamas command structure.

Somewhat sad though with all the loss of life.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:27 PM
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uh...yeah, I think I'll pass. One I was gonna post and then decided not to do it.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sei'taer
uh...yeah, I think I'll pass. One I was gonna post and then decided not to do it.
What's wrong with a little controversy? We need a good discussion to kickoff the rebirth of the boards.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93
What's wrong with a little controversy? We need a good discussion to kickoff the rebirth of the boards.
Because we already know who is going to be controversial and basically what they are going to say...
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  #5  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:27 AM
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I'm just waiting for the next round of "oh the Arabs don't really mean it when they say they want to wipe Israel off the map" from certain people before I dive in. Its so much fun to debate stuff with actual psychics who apparently can discern other people's inner thoughts by just looking at them and without having to pay any attention to what they say or do.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:40 AM
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Yes, it is just like the Fremen on Arrakis. They do not fight fair. They hide behind their women and children so that they can get at us while we are getting past their meat shields. Sardaukar soldier.

The Hamas fighters, like all Muslim terrorists, fight from behind hospitals, women, urban housing units, childrens education centers, and mosques. The subsequent manipulation of Western media is obvious and blatant.

My contention is that there are no innocent. The people voted them in a very democratic fashion. Just like the Germans voted in Adolf Hitler. This is total war against all who support their respective sides. It is WWII all over again, again, and yet again. After all, the Arabs were allies of the Axis powers during WWII. Nothing has changed since.

Israel will win in the long run, but the casualties will be severe for all sides.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:49 AM
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So the Israeli should just exterminate the whole lot?
They do have the Yad Vashem research centre, where they know precisely how to solve the problem of having large numbers of "superfluous humans". All they need do is built a couple of camps according to the available specifications.

Seriously:
The Israeli are not innocent either. They voted in the governments that stole the land of the Palestinians, blocked all chances for the Palestinians to get an economy of their own, refused to negotiate in good faith with Palestinians who might have been willing to make a real deal if it was fair enough, and so forth.
  #8  
Old 01-06-2009, 12:24 PM
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The Israeli are not innocent either. They voted in the governments that stole the land of the Palestinians, blocked all chances for the Palestinians to get an economy of their own, refused to negotiate in good faith with Palestinians who might have been willing to make a real deal if it was fair enough, and so forth.
Stole their land? HA! Palestinians negotiate in good faith? ROTFLMAO! I knew there was a reason we kept you around Gonzo, I just didn't know it was comic relief.

It was the U.N. who initially came up with the first legitimate iteration of Israel as a state, not the Israelis. That plan involved two states and Palestine, was btw, the other one. It was the British who cut the legs out from under that plan. Combine that with the vitriolic and violent reaction the Arab world had to the two state compromise, and it is no wonder the Israelis took up arms. They were defending themselves in 1948, just as they have defended themselves in every military action since. Any territory they have taken in any of those wars is nothing more than the price the Arabs pay for their stupidity and aggression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

As for Palestinian negotiating in good faith, there hasn't been a single negotiation with Palestinian representatives that hasn't included them steadfastly clinging to the right of return, and thus the de facto destruction of the state of Israel. Until they give that up, any Palestinian negotiation with Israel is nothing more than a cynical ploy to fool people like you (and quite successfully I might add) into thinking they're trying to be reasonable and work within a diplomatic frame work. They aren't. The right of return is just a more subtle way to "drive the Jews into the sea" as anyone with half a brain should realize.
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2009, 06:07 AM
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The problem is that both groups claim right to the land for religious beliefs, who has the right? Not something both groups are ever going to agree upon.

Nothing will be resolved until something mindblowingly terrible happens in that area (nuke or other catastrophy) or they stop believing in filthy filthy lies told by an imagined god.
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  #10  
Old 01-08-2009, 09:35 AM
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I usually stay out of this discussion because my solution is generally not very liked

but just one thing I saw today. a norwegian rabbi of some influence replied to what the pope said(basically that Gaza is one big concentration camp) and he replied that "it's on the border of denying that the holocaust happened"

I don't really get the connection here, but it's one thing that pisses me off about the Israeli. they always use WW2 as an excuse for doing stuff. and that is a very flawed logic if you ask me

ps. don't have any links since most of you don't understand norwegian
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  #11  
Old 01-08-2009, 10:42 AM
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The link is very simple, DahLIiA: it is physically impossible for an abuse victim to ever do anything bad. Once you believe that, it is amazingly easy to stuff all criticism of Israel into the "Holocaust denier" category.
  #12  
Old 01-08-2009, 11:13 AM
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Try living everyday for 60 years in a nation surrounded by hundreds of millions of people that have emphatically stated their #1 goal is the annihilation of your religion and culture...

Once you do that...you might understand what its like to be Israel.
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:24 AM
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OK- I don't claim to be an expert here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Hamas has been consistently, regularly sending rockets into Israel- no? How about Hamas stop for a while and then if Isreal attacks it is clearly their fault. But as long as Hamas keeps lobbing missiles into Israel's neighbourhoods, it is hard to find fault with Israel.

As much as the Canada and the US are good friends, if one country started routinely lobbing missiles into the other country- ya, I think sh!t would happen.

Either Israel fights back or they give up and give the land back and have no homeland. Because I guarantee Hamas won't be happy with just getting the Gaza strip back, they won't be happy until Israel is left with no homeland once again. But hey, Israel is the bad guy here- how dare they want to have a country of their own, and just be left alone.

And Israel as a nation does not condone the Jewish Gaza settlers, so the extremists should not condemn the whole nation. Israel (as a newly re-formed nation) has never had a chance to prove they are happy to just be left alone, because the are continually provoked by their neighbours and their own extremists.

I hate war, and I hate that civilians are being killed, but how long is Israel expected to sit back while missiles land deeper and deeper in their territory? They either fight back or give up.

EDIT: The whole thing is so complicated- my rant above is very simplistic- I realize that. Israel has done some provoking as well and certainly is not innocent. It is OK to read about national intrigue in a world that is not ours with deaths that are not real, like WoT. This kind of thing in the real world is horrible.
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  #14  
Old 01-08-2009, 11:45 AM
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Because I guarantee Hamas won't be happy with just getting the Gaza strip back, they won't be happy until Israel is left with no homeland once again.
You don't have to do any guess work with your guarantee Brita. Hamas has already said so itself.

Quote:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
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The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day.
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Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Moslem, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.
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Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion.
Quote:
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters.
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There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.
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For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
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They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state.
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Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people.
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The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

All of the above quotes are taken from the Hamas charter. If you want to read the whole thing, I've provided a link. To recap, Hamas is a mysoginistic, anti-semetical organziation who believes in slavery, conspiracy theories, and that the only way to solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is to destroy Israel. And yet Israel is supposed to be the bad guy here? Yeah...right...
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:03 PM
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OK- I don't claim to be an expert here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Hamas has been consistently, regularly sending rockets into Israel- no?
No. And that is at least part of the reason why this current invasion cannot be wholly blamed on Hamas.

Hamas had been shooting rockets into Israel. At the same time (and before that) Israel had been shooting rockets into the Gaza Strip. Israel called their rockets "targetted killings", or some such; I do not know what, if any, euphemistic term Hamas used for theirs.
Then a truce was agreed, initially* for six months. During that truce, Hamas did make a credible effort to stop the rockets. A few were still fired, but then, Hamas is not the only party involved, just the strongest at the moment. Israel was supposed to have opened the border posts, so that trade could return and the Palestinians had some alternative to slow starvation and waiting for the resumption of the exchange of fire. Israel did not open those borders. Israel also continued its "targetted killing", though mainly in the West Bank.
Just before the truce period ended, Israel struck inside the Gaza Strip, alllegedly to destroy tunnels intended to smuggle weapons and attack Israeli soldiers. Perhaps that's what they were meant for, perhaps they were meant to get food and fuel into Gaza. Either way, it was a clear violation of the truce. Some rockets were send in the other direction, and things slowly escalated.
When the truce period ended, Hamas had a choice: either accept that living in a concentration camp was all they could ever get, or not renew the truce. They chose not to surrender.
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As much as the Canada and the US are good friends, if one country started routinely lobbing missiles into the other country- ya, I think sh!t would happen.
Suppose that Canada blockaded Alaska, not letting any goods in or out, and occasionally killing politicians during public appearances. After how many years do you think the rest of the USA would react?
Mind: if they react with violence, they're just as bad as Hamas and the other Palestinians are.

PS I know. Bush and his Republicans are responsible for far more death than any Palestinian organisation (or all together). I'm ignoring that for now, in order to pretend a comparison would be reasonable.

* There have been previous ones. At least some of those did not strengthen my admiration for Israel.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:11 PM
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I dunno, Gonzo, I'm pretty sure we could discuss things with Canada unless, you know, their stated goal was our total annihilation.

If that was their stated goal, then I'm afraid things would get very bad very quickly. And if they allied with Mexico, I'm pretty sure Ottowa, Toronto and Mexico City would be glass.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Canada could blockade Alaska and get the Russian army to come take it over. They've been irritated we suckered them out of that territory since Seward's Folly.
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  #17  
Old 01-08-2009, 12:23 PM
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During that truce, Hamas did make a credible effort to stop the rockets. A few were still fired
Bullsh!t.

The reason for the blockade is this.

Quote:
Hamas is officially committed to Israel’s destruction, and after it took over Gaza in 2007, it said it would not recognize Israel, honor previous Palestinian Authority commitments to it or end its violence against Israelis.
As for the rocketfire a. it didn't go down by any significant measure and b. it wasn't just the rocket fire that provoked Israel's response.

Quote:
But while rocket fire did go down drastically in the fall to 15 to 20 a month from hundreds a month, Israel said it would not permit trade to begin again because the rocket fire had not completely stopped and because Hamas continued to smuggle weapons from Egypt through desert tunnels.
As for the immediate hostilities they kicked off with this.

Quote:
On Wednesday, some 70 rockets hit Israel over 24 hours, in a distinct increase in intensity.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/wo...ewanted=1&_r=1

Basically Israel was getting shelled by Hamas every other day in spite of the supposed cease fire between the two. As for the blockade and the Palestinian suffering resulting, they should have thought about that before electing a group like Hamas, who's stated goals and ideology contradict the very existence of Israel. They brought it on themselves for electing those madmen to represent them to Israel and the rest of the world.
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  #18  
Old 01-08-2009, 07:45 PM
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Whatever. The second we blockaded Alaska and started targeting politicians in public...ahem...then most of the US would bow down and thank us. After that, we'd probably just give it back.
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  #19  
Old 01-08-2009, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
Whatever. The second we blockaded Alaska and started targeting politicians in public...ahem...then most of the US would bow down and thank us. After that, we'd probably just give it back.

Heeeeeeyyyyyyy Sounds like a plan is coming together!
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2009, 01:21 AM
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I saw a series of maps once, that showed territory controlled by Palestine and territory controlled by Isreal. Oooh found it.




The conclusion that I draw from this is that Isreal is choking the life out of Palestine, much like a Python kills. Given that Palestine is involved in a life or death struggle, they have every right to do whatever it takes to defend themselves, which in this case means annihilating Israel, even if they are total assholes doing it.

Would anyone care to explain to me why I am wrong? It can't be as one sided as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
Whatever. The second we blockaded Alaska and started targeting politicians in public...ahem...then most of the US would bow down and thank us. After that, we'd probably just give it back.
Id support you. Till the give it back part. That would mean war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum
They were defending themselves in 1948, just as they have defended themselves in every military action since. Any territory they have taken in any of those wars is nothing more than the price the Arabs pay for their stupidity and aggression.
It's going to take more than a wikipedia link to convince me this is true. It sounds too much like how one might rationalize our theft of land from Native Americans.

Last edited by Neilbert; 01-09-2009 at 01:27 AM.
 

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