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  #1  
Old 08-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Another Sparker Discussion!

I've been discussing the Aviendha killed Asmodean (no, this is not an Asmodean theory, don't run away) theory over at Dragonmount and I have the following questions regarding sparkers and touching and all sorts of fun stuff.

1. How much time exists between when the Spark is detectable and that individual has their first touching, with or without guidance? Does this time vary per individual?

2. Can a new Sparker, that is far from her first touching occurring naturally, still be guided through her first touching once the Spark is detected? (Moiraine suggests that she can detect that Egwene is very close...however, doesn't she also suggest that Nynaeve's first touching was more forced? Anyway, need to look up that reference too).

3. After the first touching, when guidance is provided, is it inevitable that a channeler will channel with or without the desire to do so until taught further about how to grasp Saidar/Saidin?

4. When do the Wise Ones invite/demand an Aiel Sparker to begin training as a Wise One? When the Spark is detected? When the Sparker is close to their first touching? When the Sparker is very close to their first touching? After they have guided that individual through her first touching?
  #2  
Old 08-09-2009, 04:21 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
4. When do the Wise Ones invite/demand an Aiel Sparker to begin training as a Wise One? When the Spark is detected? When the Sparker is close to their first touching? When the Sparker is very close to their first touching? After they have guided that individual through her first touching?
I would say when the Spark is first detected. That's the best explanation for why they were 'suggesting' that Aviendha give up the spears even before she entered the Wetlands to look for the Chief of Chiefs.
Based on what we know, they did not actually start teaching her until after she had accepted that she was going to be a Wise One.
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
1. How much time exists between when the Spark is detectable and that individual has their first touching, with or without guidance? Does this time vary per individual?
I'd say that the time is totally dependent on the individual and environmental factors. The timing is very close to the progression of of Puberty. The ability to Channel should become detectible early in puberty but distinguishing Sparker from Learner probably comes later.

The inevitible channeling of a Sparker would happen general sometime after the completion of Puberty and be primarily dependent on how likely the channeler is likely to encounter a situation where she has a Need strong enough to make her Channel. A pampered Princess is less likely to Spark as soon as puberty enables ability than a 'Cinderella'would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
2. Can a new Sparker, that is far from her first touching occurring naturally, still be guided through her first touching once the Spark is detected? (Moiraine suggests that she can detect that Egwene is very close...however, doesn't she also suggest that Nynaeve's first touching was more forced? Anyway, need to look up that reference too).
I think that during Puberty, there is very little to distinguish Sparker from Learner. Either one can be taught to channel as soon as the physical changes reach a functional level.

Nyneave's first channeling was saving Egwene from Breakbone Fever and was a clear case of "Need" driven channelin; Nyneave couldn't accept Egwene's prognosis and Needed to prove it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
3. After the first touching, when guidance is provided, is it inevitable that a channeler will channel with or without the desire to do so until taught further about how to grasp Saidar/Saidin?
After first touching there is no functional difference between Sparker and Learner. IMHO, Sparkers have stronger wills and/or personalties than Learners -- in general -- and are thus less likely to succumb to the addictive nature of Channeling than Learners. Both Sparkers and Learners are vulnerable to the seduction of touching the OP without supervision, but Sparkers should be slightly less so if the supervison isn't delayed. Either can be expected to channel unspervised after being taught how to touch the OP if they're not taught more in a timely manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
4. When do the Wise Ones invite/demand an Aiel Sparker to begin training as a Wise One? When the Spark is detected? When the Sparker is close to their first touching? When the Sparker is very close to their first touching? After they have guided that individual through her first touching?
Aviendha hadn't Channeled when she was summoned to Rhuidean. The Wise Ones in that case were apparently guided by Dreams in deciding the timing of Aviendha's apprenticeship. I supect there is a large dose of simply understanding people involved in the decision for normal candidates (i.e. not touched by Prophecy.)

Aviendha wasn't taught how to touch Saidar until after she went to Rhuidean, which is the first step in becoming a Wise One. I'd guess that Wise Ones only teach Channeling to anyone before that test in an Emergency situation -- someone who spontaneously Channeled earlier than expected due to extreme stress or a life-thretening situation.
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:23 PM
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1) Verin & Alanna had a whole gaggle of girls from the Two Rivers who they tested and discovered potential (both sparker & learner). That may show how young the spark may show up in girls, but it doesn't answer when it's detectable.

2) Yes. That's what Moiraine did with Egwene. And likely what Elaida did with Elayne. That's what Aes Sedai WANT to do, else they have a bunch of filthy wilders on their hands.

3) you think? YOU try telling a teen-ager not to touch the shiny.

4) They let Aviendha run with the Maidens after they knew she was a sparker. At least there was a lag between when they knew and when they got their hands on her.
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  #5  
Old 08-09-2009, 04:27 PM
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1. How much time exists between when the Spark is detectable and that individual has their first touching, with or without guidance? Does this time vary per individual?
I would surmise that it varies from person to person based on life-experience. Nynaeve first channeled due to great need (i.e. Egwene's Breakbone fever) whereas Egwene first channeled under Moiraine's guidance. Rand did it out of great need as well with Bela. However, if you look at the various possible lives in the Portal Stone trip (TGH), Rand's channeling came at different times depending on need. So, basically, the individual becomes able to channel around late puberty (14ish for girls, 16-18ish for boys) and then eventually channels due to some sort of great need on their part.

Quote:
3. After the first touching, when guidance is provided, is it inevitable that a channeler will channel with or without the desire to do so until taught further about how to grasp Saidar/Saidin?

Yes. They will channel subconsciously if they are a sparker regardless of their desire to do so. One session with trained guidance is not enough to give an individual the control necessary to only touch the source when they desire it. This is evident in the fact that Aes Sedai hang on to a channeler for a fairly long period to "make them safe" before letting them go when they don't have enough ability to be an Aes Sedai.

Quote:
4. When do the Wise Ones invite/demand an Aiel Sparker to begin training as a Wise One? When the Spark is detected? When the Sparker is close to their first touching? When the Sparker is very close to their first touching? After they have guided that individual through her first touching?
Figure Avi was 17-18 when she was forced to join and that was delayed because of her journey across the Dragonwall. They knew she was a sparker when she left with Rhuarc and felt she was avoiding the inevitable even then. She was a sparker but hadn't yet used Saidar at that point.
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:29 PM
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Another note: Alanna and Verin left a 12 year old sparker because she was still too young and she could be safely left for a couple years until it was necessary to be trained. Thus, the current AS clearly have a pretty good timeline as to when it becomes necessary to train a sparker no matter what.

EDIT: At least I think it was a sparker...the age is definitely right though.
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  #7  
Old 08-09-2009, 04:49 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Additional Information and more questions

"The Aes Sedai paused thoughtfully. "The old blood is strong in Emond's Field, and the old blood sings. I knew you for what you were the moment I saw you. No Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can channel or who is close to her change, and not feel it. " She rummaged in the pouch at her belt and produced the small blue gem on a gold chain that she had earlier worn in her hair. "You are very close to your change, your first touching. It will be better if I guide you through it. That way you will avoid the...unpleasant effects that come to those who must find their own way."

We know that a woman who is close to her change can be detected. We know that Elayne recalls having the sense of kinship she found when see Jorin and Aviendha and Egwene for the first time.

This tells us that by the time Aviendha meets up with the girls in TDR she was at the very least close to her change, if not very close.

Also, we know this:

"As in most cultures of the world, the Aiel have those who can channel and who can be taught. Women with the spark are all found by the Wise Ones and trained to become Wise Ones"

The Aiel don't have Wilders (there are more quotes that say this specifically). Additionally, we know that the Wise Ones knew Aviendha was a Sparker. Finally, we have from Aviendha's point of view, that the Wise Ones were "hounding" her to join them; her group was the last to leave.

Questions

1. Why were the Wise Ones hounding Aviendha, if she was not close enough to train?

2. Why would they allow a known Sparker to leave the Waste, risking that she might in the midst of battle (and let's say on her trip into Rhuidean) begin channeling on her own and become a Wilder?

3. If Aviendha was detectable when she meets the girls, is it realistic to believe the Wise Ones would have let her leave without guiding her through?
  #8  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Thoughts for WH

Quote:
I'd say that the time is totally dependent on the individual and environmental factors. The timing is very close to the progression of of Puberty. The ability to Channel should become detectible early in puberty but distinguishing Sparker from Learner probably comes later.

The inevitible channeling of a Sparker would happen general sometime after the completion of Puberty and be primarily dependent on how likely the channeler is likely to encounter a situation where she has a Need strong enough to make her Channel. A pampered Princess is less likely to Spark as soon as puberty enables ability than a 'Cinderella'would be.
We know from the books that a Sparker might not become detectable until the later parts of her Puberty. I believe there are two different quotes regarding females and the earliest to latest detectable ages, which are somewhere in the region of 11-21.

Also, I don't believe it is possible for a female channeler to stand next to a Learner and know she can channel. However, it is possible to stand next to a Sparker, before she channels and know with some degree of certainty how close she is to touching on her own.


Quote:
I think that during Puberty, there is very little to distinguish Sparker from Learner. Either one can be taught to channel as soon as the physical changes reach a functional level.

Nyneave's first channeling was saving Egwene from Breakbone Fever and was a clear case of "Need" driven channelin; Nyneave couldn't accept Egwene's prognosis and Needed to prove it wrong.
I think Nynaeve is a good example. If we consider the Wise Ones and the Aiel and we accept that they do not have Wilders, it stands to reason that they would not want to let a detected Sparker remain unwatched, because an event like Nynaeve experienced could very well happen to any Sparker. Then again, maybe it was need and timing on Nynaeve's part - it seems unclear whether or not Nynaeve was close to touching at that point.

Quote:
After first touching there is no functional difference between Sparker and Learner. IMHO, Sparkers have stronger wills and/or personalties than Learners -- in general -- and are thus less likely to succumb to the addictive nature of Channeling than Learners. Both Sparkers and Learners are vulnerable to the seduction of touching the OP without supervision, but Sparkers should be slightly less so if the supervison isn't delayed. Either can be expected to channel unspervised after being taught how to touch the OP if they're not taught more in a timely manner.
I understand what Aes Sedai teach regarding channeling and why they must bring them to the Tower to learn, but do we have any proof that once a channeler is brought through their first touch, they will be able to touch Saidar again without additional training? Egwene seems to be a good test case, but I cannot remember what Moiraine did after that first touching. Did she continue to train her throughout TEOTW?

Quote:
Aviendha hadn't Channeled when she was summoned to Rhuidean. The Wise Ones in that case were apparently guided by Dreams in deciding the timing of Aviendha's apprenticeship. I supect there is a large dose of simply understanding people involved in the decision for normal candidates (i.e. not touched by Prophecy.)

Aviendha wasn't taught how to touch Saidar until after she went to Rhuidean, which is the first step in becoming a Wise One. I'd guess that Wise Ones only teach Channeling to anyone before that test in an Emergency situation -- someone who spontaneously Channeled earlier than expected due to extreme stress or a life-thretening situation.
Touching Saidar is different than channeling Saidar. Moiraine calls it the first touch. What proof do we have that Aviendha hadn't touched Saidar before Rhuidean?
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
1. Why were the Wise Ones hounding Aviendha, if she was not close enough to train?
Because they knew that with some women, it takes a lot of hounding. Better to start that a bit in advance, instead of when it really is needed, right now.
The way they did it, they could build on it, increase the pressure slowly but surely, and then get Aviendha to agree in time for her to be safe.
Quote:
2. Why would they allow a known Sparker to leave the Waste, risking that she might in the midst of battle (and let's say on her trip into Rhuidean) begin channeling on her own and become a Wilder?
As MLK said: "I have a dream". Only in this case, there might have been more than one person with such a Dream.

Quote:
3. If Aviendha was detectable when she meets the girls, is it realistic to believe the Wise Ones would have let her leave without guiding her through?
Yep. Given their more realistic attitude towards it, I would expect them to be actually more capable at judging when a girl needs to taught and when there is still time to prevaricate than the AS are.
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:05 PM
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Default Filthy Wilders

Quote:
2) Yes. That's what Moiraine did with Egwene. And likely what Elaida did with Elayne. That's what Aes Sedai WANT to do, else they have a bunch of filthy wilders on their hands.
Since the Aiel do not have Wilders, and as Moiraine says, being guided to your first touch prevents that from occurring, doesn't it stand to reason that instead of allowing any Sparker they found to roam the Waste (or roam outside of the Waste) and potentially become a Wilder, that the Wise Ones would guide each Sparker through the first touching when they found them?
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
I understand what Aes Sedai teach regarding channeling and why they must bring them to the Tower to learn, but do we have any proof that once a channeler is brought through their first touch, they will be able to touch Saidar again without additional training? Egwene seems to be a good test case, but I cannot remember what Moiraine did after that first touching. Did she continue to train her throughout TEOTW?
Sort of, yes, when there was time and they were actually together. Rand spied on them one of those times.
And when they were separated, Egwene managed to use the OP to make a fire, but only on the first night. The next time she tried, she couldn't touch the OP.
  #12  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
1. Why were the Wise Ones hounding Aviendha, if she was not close enough to train?
Aviendha was close enough to Train which is why the Wise Ones were "hounding her."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
2. Why would they allow a known Sparker to leave the Waste, risking that she might in the midst of battle (and let's say on her trip into Rhuidean) begin channeling on her own and become a Wilder?
They allowed Aviendha to leave the Waste because, while she was trainable, she was in no danger of becoming a Wilder in the foreseeable future -- and the Wise Ones do happen to have foreseeing the Future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
3. If Aviendha was detectable when she meets the girls, is it realistic to believe the Wise Ones would have let her leave without guiding her through?
Yes. Aviendha is a somewhat special case because of her connection to the Car'a'carn in their Dreaming/Dreamwalking.

It might even be realistic for a less special case; It is rather pointless to try teaching someone who doesn't want to learn. If there is a long enough lead time before Sparking, there is no particular urgency in beginning Wise One training -- gaining a bit of experience and wisdom before beginning training might well be seenas leading to slightly wiser Wise Ones.

IIRC, Egwene forst meets Amys when Amys is in T'A'R reliving/recapturing her days as a Maiden. Amys later admits that she allowed Aviendha more time as a Maiden because she had resisted becoming a Wise One as well.

I'd say overall, it is probably more likely that the Wise Ones would let a Sparker avoid training than other groups without the predictive advantage of the Wise Ones DreamWalkers. Didn't Talaan resist her training as a Windfinder (and finally run away to the WT) because she was forced into training as soon as she was capable of channeling?
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:12 PM
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Default Hounding

Quote:
Because they knew that with some women, it takes a lot of hounding. Better to start that a bit in advance, instead of when it really is needed, right now.
The way they did it, they could build on it, increase the pressure slowly but surely, and then get Aviendha to agree in time for her to be safe.
Becoming a Wise One is about more than channeling, as is evident by Aviendha's immediate trip to Rhiudean. If ever there were such an emotional overload, potentially needs so great than try the women that go to Rhuidean, why would the Wise Ones risk each channeling female Aiel they send to Rhuidean becoming a Wilder during that event?

It makes more sense to me that the Wise Ones guide Sparkers through their first touch, and then explain to them it is now their duty to become Wise Ones.

They hounded Aviendha, which suggests she had been putting them off for some time when the original request/demand was made. Then, this girl who was close enough to becoming a channeler to warrant entry into their "club" they let leave the Waste, prior to her first touch and hope it just doesn't happen until she gets back?

Does anyone know how much time passed between when Aviendha met the girls and they make the trip to Rhuidean?
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:23 PM
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Default Close enough to train

Quote:
Aviendha was close enough to Train which is why the Wise Ones were "hounding her."
As I have mentioned, they don't have Wilders. We are not told, most of the time. We are told never. If she was "close enough", then it makes no sense to send her out of the Waste and risk what they sensed to be one of their strongest channelers becoming a Wilder while gone.

Quote:
They allowed Aviendha to leave the Waste because, while she was trainable, she was in no danger of becoming a Wilder in the foreseeable future -- and the Wise Ones do happen to have foreseeing the Future.
Hah. I would agree if they could see the definitive future, as with Min's talent. However, that we are told up front when Rand arrives in Rhuidean, is not the case. They see and read multiple variations of what the future may be, not what it will be, so the risk, no matter what they saw, would have been great to allow Aviendha to go and become a Wilder - which would have been a variation on her futures while gone from the Waste before returning to them. I can get the quotes if you need them, but when Moiraine questions the Wise Ones about how they knew, they admit to the many weaknesses to their abilities - many things happened that day that they did not foretell.

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It is rather pointless to try teaching someone who doesn't want to learn. If there is a long enough lead time before Sparking, there is no particular urgency in beginning Wise One training -- gaining a bit of experience and wisdom before beginning training might well be seenas leading to slightly wiser Wise Ones.
The books say that all female aiel channelers become Wise Ones - I don't think their desire to learn matters, as is evident from Amys and Aviendha.

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IIRC, Egwene forst meets Amys when Amys is in T'A'R reliving/recapturing her days as a Maiden. Amys later admits that she allowed Aviendha more time as a Maiden because she had resisted becoming a Wise One as well.
The Wise Ones say they were more lenient with Aviendha than they had been with Amys - this seems to be a generational change.

And a final note about their powers of future seeing - if they knew Aviendha would return to them, why not take her through her first touching before she left? Knowing Aviendha would return to them does not tell us either way how that would have affected their decision to bring her through her first touching.
  #15  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:25 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Was that her second time?

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Sort of, yes, when there was time and they were actually together. Rand spied on them one of those times.
And when they were separated, Egwene managed to use the OP to make a fire, but only on the first night. The next time she tried, she couldn't touch the OP.
Was the fire she created the first time she tried (after her first touch)? Or was it after more training from Moiraine?
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
They hounded Aviendha, which suggests she had been putting them off for some time when the original request/demand was made. Then, this girl who was close enough to becoming a channeler to warrant entry into their "club" they let leave the Waste, prior to her first touch and hope it just doesn't happen until she gets back?
Sort of, yes. There was at least some protection against it, in that she had a couple of companions, and thus would not be on her own when (if) she got into trouble.
Quote:
TDR, Threads in the Pattern, Chapter 39

Aviendha shook her head disgustedly. "We have not come far at all; we were among the last to set out. The Wise Ones nipped at me like wild dogs circling a calf, saying I had other duties." Suddenly she grinned, gesturing to the other Aiel.
"These stayed back to taunt me in my misery, so they said, but I do not think the Wise Ones would have let me go if they had not been there to companion me."
  #17  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:32 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Great Need

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I would surmise that it varies from person to person based on life-experience. Nynaeve first channeled due to great need (i.e. Egwene's Breakbone fever) whereas Egwene first channeled under Moiraine's guidance. Rand did it out of great need as well with Bela. However, if you look at the various possible lives in the Portal Stone trip (TGH), Rand's channeling came at different times depending on need. So, basically, the individual becomes able to channel around late puberty (14ish for girls, 16-18ish for boys) and then eventually channels due to some sort of great need on their part.
Need and Sparkers and Puberty present a trifecta ripe for creating "filthy wilders"...which doesn't happen to the Aiel. How else would they avoid the Wilder effect, than taking Sparkers through their first touch as Moiraine did, when they find them?

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Yes. They will channel subconsciously if they are a sparker regardless of their desire to do so. One session with trained guidance is not enough to give an individual the control necessary to only touch the source when they desire it. This is evident in the fact that Aes Sedai hang on to a channeler for a fairly long period to "make them safe" before letting them go when they don't have enough ability to be an Aes Sedai.
Aes Sedai are manipulative and controlling, so I get why they demand that everyone comes to the Tower to learn to "make them safe" or some other such nonsense (yes, someone could burn themself out, etc) The reality of Aes Sedai teaching is that they want to control channeling and channelers. However, do we have any proof that Touchers are in any danger of randomly weaving Saidar until they are taught to weave it?

Man I need to re-read TEOTW!
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:36 PM
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Default Different Interpretation

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Sort of, yes. There was at least some protection against it, in that she had a couple of companions, and thus would not be on her own when (if) she got into trouble.
Aviendha wasn't left out of the battles or taken out of situtations that might have caused an accidental touching. It seems like the Wise Ones wanted to make sure that Aviendha came back, which would be more assured if they sent her spear sisters that knew about her duties and if they sent Rhuarc too.

"Moiraine shook her head, only slightly, but still deliberate. "I showed this to Rhuarc." Aviendha opened her mouth, her face irate, but the Aes Sedai raised her voice and went on smoothly. "As the letter asks me to. Only the part concerning you, of course. He seems quite determined that you will do as the letter asks. As it orders. I think it wisest to do as Rhuarc and the Wise Ones wish, Aviendha, Do you not agree?"
  #19  
Old 08-09-2009, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
Also, I don't believe it is possible for a female channeler to stand next to a Learner and know she can channel. However, it is possible to stand next to a Sparker, before she channels and know with some degree of certainty how close she is to touching on her own.
I think it is possible to sense Learners, just as it is to sense Sparkers -- the only difference being that the ability isn't as obvious in a Learner, so it requires being closer to detect; possibly even requiring physical contact.

Similar to the ability to sense a large static charge before you actually touch something but not a middling static charge that can't be felt without coming close enough for a shock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
I think Nynaeve is a good example. If we consider the Wise Ones and the Aiel and we accept that they do not have Wilders, it stands to reason that they would not want to let a detected Sparker remain unwatched, because an event like Nynaeve experienced could very well happen to any Sparker. Then again, maybe it was need and timing on Nynaeve's part - it seems unclear whether or not Nynaeve was close to touching at that point.
The Wise Ones have an advantage in predicting when a girl will Spark. Aes Sedai don't have the advantage of Dreamwalking to guide such decisions, so they're much more conservative about allowing Sparkers to roam unsupervised.

Nyneave Sparked at a very young age. She is also Forsaken Strength and very strong-willed -- a combination the would lead me to predict an early Sparking (and probably an Aes Sedai would, too.)

An Aes Sedai's remedy for a girl in Nyneave's situation would be to drag her off to the Tower where she could be kept safe from the kind of Need that would trigger her Spark earlier than Aes Sedai would wish.)

A Wise One's solution would be to check T'A'R for possible triggers and let her run free until one showed up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
I understand what Aes Sedai teach regarding channeling and why they must bring them to the Tower to learn, but do we have any proof that once a channeler is brought through their first touch, they will be able to touch Saidar again without additional training? Egwene seems to be a good test case, but I cannot remember what Moiraine did after that first touching. Did she continue to train her throughout TEOTW?
Egwene and Rand both demonstrate that knowing how to touch the True Source doesn't mean that you can touch the True Source. They also demonstrate that nothing stops them from trying once they've had that first touch -- even when it is horrifying and certain madness, as in Rand's case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
Touching Saidar is different than channeling Saidar. Moiraine calls it the first touch. What proof do we have that Aviendha hadn't touched Saidar before Rhuidean?
We know Aviendha hadn't touched Saidar before going to Rhuidean because the Wise Ones didn't have her chained and dragged to Rhuidean for testing before she arrived with Rand.

Teaching someone to touch the True Source and then allowing them to run free is like waking up a seven year-old by waving a dounut under their nose and then locking them in a closet with a thousand fresh donuts and no breakfast, then telling them not to touch anything.

Just being able to sense the the True Source is addictive once they're made aware of it; you can't show them the OP and tell them it's off limits until they decide to come back and be a Wise One.
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:57 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Who said you couldn't touch it?

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Similar to the ability to sense a large static charge before you actually touch something but not a middling static charge that can't be felt without coming close enough for a shock.
The Sul'dam may help us in this, along with a review of Jordan's answers to our specific Learner/Sparker questions. However, I disagree that a Learner can be detected without testing that would create a "shock". I don't believe Learners naturally have a charge until it is brought out of them by another Channeler.

Quote:
The Wise Ones have an advantage in predicting when a girl will Spark. Aes Sedai don't have the advantage of Dreamwalking to guide such decisions, so they're much more conservative about allowing Sparkers to roam unsupervised.
It's an interesting theory, that Wise Ones use Dreamwalking to detect Sparkers, however I doubt that occurs and we've certainly never heard of it nor seen it happen. Instead, I would assume they test their girls for the ability - anyone know of any quotes where the Wise Ones discuss how they detect Sparkers?

Quote:
A Wise One's solution would be to check T'A'R for possible triggers and let her run free until one showed up.
You are assuming much in the powers of Dreamwalkers, as though they can randomly pick a person and get their entire future, or the immediate future and get a good gauge on how it will turn out.

Quote:
Egwene and Rand both demonstrate that knowing how to touch the True Source doesn't mean that you can touch the True Source. They also demonstrate that nothing stops them from trying once they've had that first touch -- even when it is horrifying and certain madness, as in Rand's case.
Quotes, my friend, quotes! Rand is certainly a different case since along with him you have Ishamael bringing it out in him in his Dreams. A normal channeler wouldn't have this type of intervention, so it is wrong of us to use him in any comparison. However, I agree that Egwene would be a good test case, if we can prove Moiraine never taught her or guided her through anything else after that first touch.

Quote:
We know Aviendha hadn't touched Saidar before going to Rhuidean because the Wise Ones didn't have her chained and dragged to Rhuidean for testing before she arrived with Rand.
When you chosen to become a Wise One, you go to Rhuidean, whether you can channel or not. Her testing at Rhuidean tells us nothing about her status as a Sparker/Toucher/Channeler.

Quote:
Teaching someone to touch the True Source and then allowing them to run free is like waking up a seven year-old by waving a dounut under their nose and then locking them in a closet with a thousand fresh donuts and no breakfast, then telling them not to touch anything.
No it's not. Again, there is no danger in touching the OP, beyond it's potentially addictive qualities. As we see in the WT, no one is prevented from overdosing, but we don't see it happen (I think we hear of a rare occassion). Everyone is told, "you'll shoot your eye out", and so most stay away from overdosing. Why would they have needed to tell Aviendha to not touch it?

Quote:
Just being able to sense the the True Source is addictive once they're made aware of it; you can't show them the OP and tell them it's off limits until they decide to come back and be a Wise One.
It wouldn't be off limits - but you make sure they don't go through the first touching on their own, and then you tell them that they must become a Wise One. While Aviendha is told she has a choice, there wasn't much choice in the matter. Plus, as you say, if they have the gift of seeing the future, why would they be worried about Aviendha whether she had touched or not (which is why their dreamwalking doesn't tell us anything).
 

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