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  #1  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:39 PM
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Default Teslyn, Edesina didn't know Tuon?

In KoD, there is a part where Luca tells the AS that Tuon is a Seanchan High Lady. That led to them harassing her into negotiating on behalf of the Seanchan. Which in turn led to Tuon collaring Joline and Teslyn and that little row.

Now. In WH in the last scene Mat, etc have in that book, their plan on escaping Ebou Dar is in motion. Teslyn and Edesina were RIGHT THERE when Egeanin freaked out when she saw Tuon held and gagged and called her the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Seconds later, Mat shouts that she is the Daughter of the Nine Moons during his half of the wedding ceremony.

So. Did Teslyn and Edesina simply forget that they heard Tuon being called the Daughter of the Nine Moons not once but twice? And if they didn't forget, what do they think that title means? That she is the daughter of a fisherman? Not to mention the circumstances in which all of that happened. It was obvious to anybody that Tuon was a VERY high-standing person. Even a dense person would have to believe she was at least a High Lady of some sort.

Any thoughts? Did they just forget?
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  #2  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:48 PM
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No one knew what 'Daughter of the Nine Moons' meant, for one thing. For another, it's not clear that they were 'right there' when it was said, or that they were paying attention.
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  #3  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:56 PM
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I can somewhat agree about your comment concerning that they didn't know what Daughter of the Nine Moons means. Yet at the same time, you would have to be more than stupid to not put two and two together after that title was VERY much emphasized more than once in a short amount of time, in addition to the overall circumstances of the whole deal.

But they WERE right there when this happened, with their faces to the floor after Egeanin freaked out and called her the Daughter of the Nine Moons. While there is more than enough evidence to not even need to mention it, they ALSO had a good second or two to see Tuon before they were pulled to the floor by the sul'dam.

Also, I admit there could be some sort of theoretical argument that they were distracted, one of the reasons being that they had their faces on the floor. I don't know about you, but if I have my face to the floor and theres talking of any sort going on, I can "hear and comprehend" it better than normal. The whole blind men having keener hearing, etc thing.

Edit: My verdict is that either the AS are beyond stupid, were somehow so scared that they were oblivious to pretty much EVERYTHING going on around them, or RJ messed up. I can't think of another reason.
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Last edited by Toss the dice; 08-12-2009 at 10:59 PM.
  #4  
Old 08-13-2009, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toss the dice
So. Did Teslyn and Edesina simply forget that they heard Tuon being called the Daughter of the Nine Moons not once but twice? And if they didn't forget, what do they think that title means?
To add further to the inconsistencies, Setalle Anan should have known the significance of "The Daughter of the Nine Moons" although she wasn't present at Mat's half of the wedding. Egeanin/Leilwinn definitely knows both the signifigance of the name and the person -- whether under the veil as the 'High Lady Tuon" or with the veil lifted as 'The Daughter of the Nine Moons.' TheAes Sedai should have made the connection simply from the deference Egeanin and the suldam show her and if they'd shown any sort of curiosity about the Seanchan by asking questions of their traveling companions.

I think the whole situation has to be charged to RJ's theme of "nobody talks to anyone else and everybody s working from incomplete data and erroneous assumptions."

Teslyn and Edesina's view of Mat's half of the wedding was more one of ignoring a lover's spat that was irrelevant to them than one of absorbing critical information.
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  #5  
Old 08-13-2009, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toss the dice
Yet at the same time, you would have to be more than stupid to not put two and two together after that title was VERY much emphasized more than once in a short amount of time, in addition to the overall circumstances of the whole deal.
Well, they did pass the test for the shawl, so they're well endowed in the stupidity department.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:23 AM
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Mat did not know the significance of DoNM title till Egeanin told him. The AS only heard Tuon's title. Nothing more. Certainly they would know she was high blood, but how much more can they be certain of?

Even now Mat knows very little about Tuon. The AS are probably very confused. If Tuon was of higher rank than Suroth, then the seanchan ought to be mounting a very big manhunt. But there's none. So they cannot realistically expect that Tuon is of high status or at least not higher than Suroth or the other high blood.
  #7  
Old 08-13-2009, 08:46 AM
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If you want to be charitable you could say that at the time the Aes Sedai were on the edge of a nervous breakdown. They had gone from being the top of the pile as far as social standing goes in the world to being made damane.

Their training was far from complete and the hope of rescue by Mat enabled them to hold on to who they were a bit longer than most but from a mental point of view I doubt if they were very much in a good state of mind.

Then Mat rides in to the rescue and the first part of the plan kicks off. The heart starts to beat a lot faster, the stomach gets twisted up in a knot. They want to get out of the palace asap so they can get the collars off. Then there is a change in plan and someone spots them. Worse its a noble. The game is up they have been caught, no escape, they have to go back to the damane kennels with no hope of ever geing rescued etc.

I don't think it is stretching to say that the two Aes Sedai may not have been their usual cool analitical manipulators right then. Even after their capture notice how the two AS who were captured tend to shout a lot more that the sister who was in hiding but never capture of the more typical AS who were never in that sort of danger who rarely if ever rases her voice.
  #8  
Old 08-13-2009, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
Mat did not know the significance of DoNM title till Egeanin told him. The AS only heard Tuon's title. Nothing more. Certainly they would know she was high blood, but how much more can they be certain of?
That's just the thing greatwolf. My thread is referring to the fact that the AS didn't know she was even a High Lady until Luca told them. Scratch Daughter of the Nine Moons (even though they heard it back in Ebou Dar). Immediately after finding out from Luca that Tuon WAS a High Lady of some sort, they started pestering her into negotiations. They didn't know that she was the Daughter of the Nine Moons until Mat and Tuon were officially wed and after.

I know what you're saying and agree Enigma. I suppose I will just chalk it up to Teslyn and Edesina having extremely one-track minds in the process of being rescued. One-track in that they were nervous as all hell and about ready to piss themselves from both anxiety and fear. Which is understandable in their position.

Given that I agree with you and what I said above, I have one more little thing to throw out. Put yourself in Teslyn or Edesina's shoes. You are a complete wreck, on the verge of being rescued from being a bloody dam'ane of all things. You very much fear that at any moment, things will go south and you'll be recaptured.

Now. Given the circumstances of what went down with Tuon (it was hardly a minor thing), I would be VERY much interested in this slim little woman who very obviously is at least a POTENTIAL threat to my escape. I would be watching everything and everyone, almost sure that the proverbial axe was going to fall any second. Now given that and everything else, wouldn't you think at least ONE of the two AS present would have even really remembered this? Then maybe two days from then when things have settled down some you may just think to yourself, "hmm. who the hell is she?" Enough "whatever" would exist for me to at the very least be somewhat curious if not downright suspicious or very curious as to exactly who or what this mystery woman THAT'S STILL WITH US is!

Meanwhile, you're sharing a bloody wagon with 3 sul'dam, one of whom made you eat the floor when that little Tuon thing happened in the first place. Hmm. Do you think the sul'dam know anything? I've been just so busy sitting here on my ass that I don't know if I have the time to ask them, let alone anyone.
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  #9  
Old 08-13-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toss the dice
Given the circumstances of what went down with Tuon (it was hardly a minor thing), I would be VERY much interested in this slim little woman who very obviously is at least a POTENTIAL threat to my escape. I would be watching everything and everyone, almost sure that the proverbial axe was going to fall any second.
Are you sure?

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
I think that you would do what you had been trained to do: ignore everything around you until you got orders to do otherwise. And I definitely think that's what the two Leashed Ones did then.
  #10  
Old 08-13-2009, 01:49 PM
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Are you sure?

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
From the fall of Ebou Dar to the kidnapping of Tuon was 53 days, three days shy of two WOT months and a full seven days shy of two real world months, so not "literally months." "Nearly months" would be more accurate.

The desription of their arrival doesn't support your contention of being conditioned to ignore "their betters" -- which to an unbroken Aes Sedai is an oxymoron.

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When Egeanin strode through that doorway, he sagged on the spear in relief. Two sui'dam entered after her, and Domon followed. Mat got his first look at Edesina to know who he was seeing, though he did recall her from one day when the damane were being exercised, a slender handsome woman in one of those plain gray dresses, with black hair spilling to her waist. Despite the a'dam leashing her to Seta's wrist, Edesina looked about her calmly. An Aes Sedai on a leash, perhaps, but an Aes Sedai confident that leash was coming off soon. Teslyn, on the other hand, was a quivering mass of eagerness, licking her lips and staring at the door to the stableyard. Renna and Seta hurried the two Aes Sedai along behind Egeanin without taking their eyes from the stableyard door.
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  #11  
Old 08-13-2009, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
From the fall of Ebou Dar to the kidnapping of Tuon was 53 days, three days shy of two WOT months and a full seven days shy of two real world months, so not "literally months." "Nearly months" would be more accurate.
I'm willing to offer "nearly literally months". Is that acceptable?
  #12  
Old 08-13-2009, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
I think that you would do what you had been trained to do: ignore everything around you until you got orders to do otherwise. And I definitely think that's what the two Leashed Ones did then.
I would see it slightly different. While in the palace waiting to get out the two Aes Sedai are on edge etc as I said earlier on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

Once they got out of the city their confidence would begin to return a bit. They still have the emotional scars but they are getting more and more away from the damane role and back to the Aes Sedai role.

Yes they have an interest in Tuon but I would guess a big part of them wants to have nothing to do with the Seanchan ever again. Added to that they now have a nice shiny close pal of the Dragon Reborn right in front of them. What Aes Sedai could ignore that? I would guess a lot of their time was devoted to trying to get a string tied to Mat if not take control.

Mat is of course not the easiest to control and I would guess they have to spend more and more time trying to figure him out and not have so much time left for Tuon until her imporance is shoved into their face.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:44 PM
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Added to that, they were probably distracted by the (former) sul'dam too. Officially, those may not have been as important as Tuon, but that may not have been what their subconscious told them.
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Old 08-13-2009, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Are you sure?

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
I think that you would do what you had been trained to do: ignore everything around you until you got orders to do otherwise. And I definitely think that's what the two Leashed Ones did then.
I don't believe this for a second.

However, any combination of being scared spitless, distracted, nervous, etc, etc seems to be about the best option we have.
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Old 08-14-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Toss the dice
That's just the thing greatwolf. My thread is referring to the fact that the AS didn't know she was even a High Lady until Luca told them.
That's Mat's assumption, and Luca denied it. 'High Lady' means nothing to AS. I don't think damane are given lessons on seanchan hierachy and politics. Besides, Mor and Karyde are very certain that the RLers wouldn't know who Tuon is.

Assuming the AS would attach any special significance to Tuon's high ladyship is merely conjecture. If mat says he is to marry her, so what? What's wrong with him marrying any high lady?

Teslyn and Edesina probably think Suroth is in charge in Ebou dar. And they want Tuon to intercede with her and ultimately the empress to stop the war. The only stupidity there is that they thought the scheme would work.
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Old 08-14-2009, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf
That's Mat's assumption, and Luca denied it. 'High Lady' means nothing to AS. I don't think damane are given lessons on seanchan hierachy and politics. Besides, Mor and Karyde are very certain that the RLers wouldn't know who Tuon is.

Assuming the AS would attach any special significance to Tuon's high ladyship is merely conjecture. If mat says he is to marry her, so what? What's wrong with him marrying any high lady?

Teslyn and Edesina probably think Suroth is in charge in Ebou dar. And they want Tuon to intercede with her and ultimately the empress to stop the war. The only stupidity there is that they thought the scheme would work.
I don't even know how to respond to this, other than to simply tell you to read books WH-KoD. You have read them right?
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:02 PM
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Damane might not have formal classes on the Seanchan nobility but they do pick up things if Egwene's time is anything to go by.

It is possible I suppose that the two Aes Sedai were so rigid in their resistance to being made damane that they did not talk with some of the native damane. Even so one would think that unless they were deaf they would know that High Lady = senior nobility ih the Seanchan empire.
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:33 PM
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Iwonder how much Mat's cover story for Valan Luca and the curcus hands of a runaway maid had to do with the Aes Sedai not connecting Tuon with someone of importance.
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Old 08-15-2009, 04:44 AM
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AS are familiar with the "High Lord" and High Lady" terms, since there are a bunch of those in Tear.
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Old 08-15-2009, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Damane might not have formal classes on the Seanchan nobility but they do pick up things if Egwene's time is anything to go by.

It is possible I suppose that the two Aes Sedai were so rigid in their resistance to being made damane that they did not talk with some of the native damane. Even so one would think that unless they were deaf they would know that High Lady = senior nobility ih the Seanchan empire.
It is that connection that pushed them to confront Tuon. Just that she is seanchan nobility, and not her specific status in seanchan heirachy.

Teslyn's captivity was marked by resistance. And latter the attempts to break her down. And reds are not known for making friends. Even if she did, no one would tell her more than that since Tuon was under the veil.

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