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  #1  
Old 08-16-2009, 06:30 PM
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Default Why discuss it over there?

I finally got a chance to go over to the DM boards and looked for this debate on Aviendha killing Asmodean that was mentioned by Tamrylin. So, I stumbled upon the perma Asmodean thread, and Tamrylin's comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamrylin over at DM
It would have mentioned every turn and every hallway and every door he opened? You are suggesting the only door Asmodean opened while he was looking was the one the book mentions? I don't agree.
Why not? Was not the point of the scene, recording in his own point of view, how incredibly short his walk was? I think the books are very specific, that his walk was out of the Courtyard, down a hallway, and stopped when he opened a door.

In general, I think the biggest hole in the Aviendha theory is the question of why? Why then? Why sit nearby at peace with him in the Courtyard moments before? Why keep it secret for so long afterwards?
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  #2  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:33 PM
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Tam is already discussing it here, on the 'Sparker' thread. That's Tam's way of being subtle about it, because he fears the Dark Mother's wrath.
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  #3  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:57 AM
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If Aviendha killed Asmodean, what I want to know is how did she kill him using a method that would not enable the "Dark One" to bring him back to life?

I do not ever recall Aviendha using "Balefire" in the past, nor was Fain's dagger in Aviendha's possession.

Graendel and Fain are each both more likely to be the killer of Asmodean than Aviendha is, based by the Dark One's lack of ability to bring himself back to life. Unlike Aran'gar, Osan'gar, Cyndane who each have new bodies because of the Dark One's abilities.

"Motive, Opportunity, and Method" though favors to Graendal killing Asmodean, based on Moghedien dialog with Nynaeve and Lanfear's dialog with Rand, and Graendal's knowledge of the Balefire weave all before Asmodean's death.

Last edited by FelixPax; 08-17-2009 at 01:39 AM.
  #4  
Old 08-17-2009, 01:09 AM
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Well, Moiraine, Nynaeve, and Rand all came up with balefire on their own (though Moiraine might have had the help of some books), and Aviendha was there when Nynaeve used it.
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  #5  
Old 08-17-2009, 01:51 AM
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Aviendha had not channelled for the 1st time, when Nynaeve balefired those Fades with the Maidens & Rhuarc in the room to witness it (TDR, Chapter 39).

Aviendha, channels for the 1st time, we know of in tSR. Would she even remember the exact Balefire weave, not even being an apprentice yet? I'm dubious.

Unless Terez your thinking of another scene?
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:09 AM
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I'm not getting why he'd say "You?" to Aviendha.
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Old 08-17-2009, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Aviendha had not channelled for the 1st time, when Nynaeve balefired those Fades with the Maidens & Rhuarc in the room to witness it (TDR, Chapter 39).
You don't know that. Also, it doesn't make a difference if she hadn't, because if those three could come up with it on their own, why not Aviendha? Also, she might have learned it from Moiraine. I can see the Wise Ones badgering Moiraine for it after the Darkhound incident - there was no other way to get rid of that new breed of Darkhound.
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  #8  
Old 08-17-2009, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jana
I'm not getting why he'd say "You?" to Aviendha.
Why wouldn't he?
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  #9  
Old 08-17-2009, 07:55 AM
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Because he wouldn't have all that much reason to be surprised at seeing her. He knew that Aiel could move fast and silent, when they wanted to.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Because he wouldn't have all that much reason to be surprised at seeing her. He knew that Aiel could move fast and silent, when they wanted to.
Sure, but the fact that she had a reason to jump ahead of him would have been surprising enough.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:04 AM
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All right, then the next question: why would she be stupid enough to let him see her? And, as an aside: why did she let him see her face, so that he could identify her, right before killing him? That last is definitely not at all consistent with anything we know about Aiel.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
All right, then the next question: why would she be stupid enough to let him see her?
What's the harm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo
And, as an aside: why did she let him see her face, so that he could identify her, right before killing him?
Who says she wasn't veiled? You can recognize people easy enough when they're veiled.
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  #13  
Old 08-17-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
If Aviendha killed Asmodean, what I want to know is how did she kill him using a method that would not enable the "Dark One" to bring him back to life?
Why must Asmodean's death be such that the DO could not transmigrate him when the DO would not save a "traitor."

Asmodean did nothing of note to earn the reward of a new life and everything to earn the DO's displeasure by helping Rand. "Could Not" isn't a requiremnt for Asmo's death because "Would Not" is more likely and has the same effect.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:17 AM
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Well, RJ did say that the Dark One couldn't transmigrate Asmodean, because of 'how he died and where he died - not one or the other, but both'.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:43 AM
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Which rules out balefire, since that stops the DO from transmigrating the deceased anyway, no matter where it happens.
Quote:
What's the harm?
As it turned out, nothing. But if she didn't know that he was severely limited in strength, then facing a Forsaken head on is not something she's equipped to do. As she pointed out to Rand the day before this very murder, and found out for herself on that very morning.
So I would assume that if it had been Aviendha, then she would have waited for an opportunity where she could strike without giving him the time to raise a defense.
Quote:
Who says she wasn't veiled? You can recognize people easy enough when they're veiled.
Perhaps, unlike Asmodean, I would pay attention to other parts of her than her face when watching Aviendha.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:45 AM
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Asmodean fell asleep after a hard days battle and a belly full of wine and Lanfear killed him in TAR.

IDK why this discussion keeps popping up.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:54 AM
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Because some people want to keep defending the view that Aviendha is the culprit. Heck, even I've given up on peddling my "Moghedien is the DotNM" theory, but they keep raising this, while they know full well that it was Graendal.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Well, RJ did say that the Dark One couldn't transmigrate Asmodean, because of 'how he died and where he died - not one or the other, but both'.
Oh sure, bring indisputable authority into the argument. Like that's playing fair.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Because some people want to keep defending the view that Aviendha is the culprit. Heck, even I've given up on peddling my "Moghedien is the DotNM" theory, but they keep raising this, while they know full well that it was Graendal.
Lanfear seduced Graendal into killing Asmo for her.
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Old 08-17-2009, 01:29 PM
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Gonzo, you are pulling chains again. Lanfear was in Durance Vile and not able to seduce anyone to do anything. However, Graendal needed no inducement to kill Asmodean. He accidently caught her snooping and she killed him.

Fain was ruled out by RJ. IMO, Aviendha is just so unlikely since she had no real motive. Why would she go against Rand's evident desire to keep Asmo around. It also implies that Avi may have known the true nature of Asmo. I doubt that very much. There may have been suspicions on her part, but that is all.

I also do not believe for a heartbeat that Avi would use Balefire on a person she could take out just using her hands let alone any other weapon which would be more practical. She and many others had no idea about the reincarnation of Forsaken. Only another Forsaken would be cautious enough to use balefire to make sure that Asmo would have nothing to say to anyone.

It was only later that we get a comment by the DO that he would not have brought back Asmo even if he could and the reality was that he could not even if he had wanted to do so, which he did not.

"Just to be perfectly clear." :lol
 

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