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  #1  
Old 08-23-2009, 04:56 PM
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Default Another adam?

I just need to get rid of this itch. Sammael promised Sevanna a device to help her control Rand when captured. Then he gave her the oath rod. What was he planning to give her if anything at all? Did he have the male adam? Or a different copy? Something else entirely? Or just a lie.

If it was the adam though (which is what I usually think of when I read that bit, where is it now? Any thoughts?
  #2  
Old 08-23-2009, 05:07 PM
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We know that Sammael found a stash of AoL items given the way his private quarters were decked out so he may have had something to bind Rand. On the other hand given that he disperced the Shaido he may never had planned to use them to get Rand. Even if the did the only way they could hold Rand was to keep him shielded and if we have shielded Rand and Sammael in the same room/tent I don't think I need draw a picture.
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Old 08-23-2009, 06:22 PM
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It may have been the Oath Rod itself. Then, when he gave it to her, he decided to lie and say that it only worked on women, because he didn't trust Sevanna to control Rand. Or something. He may also have reason to believe he could have gotten one of Semirhage's stash.
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:52 AM
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It might have been the gholam.

I do think that Sammael had something which he believed would achieve his purpose, whatever that was precisely at that time. I don't know whether or not he was willing to let Rand live.

Whatever, if it does indeed work on men specifically, then we'll learn about it in the next book. Graendal got it, after all.
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:25 PM
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Some of the forsaken might be willing to bind Rand to serve them, it would be a big coup after all but some of them hate LTT far too much to ever let him live. Demandred and Sammael jump to the top of this list. I doubt Sammael could ever allow his great rival to survive.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
I doubt Sammael could ever allow his great rival to survive.
Likely you're right. But Sammael promised to bind. His shaido conspirators might take it amiss if they have Rand and he turns up without a means of bind. He could kill Rand but what happens after? A fight with a dozen WOs ?
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:52 AM
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If he dumps a gholam into their midst, then how useful are those WOs going to be?
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:26 AM
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Also, we know that WOs have no battle training as they do not fight. Seriously, given the fact that we know WOs can be any mix of strong and weak or non-channeling, how long do you think it would take Sammael to wipe the floor with them?
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
Also, we know that WOs have no battle training as they do not fight. Seriously, given the fact that we know WOs can be any mix of strong and weak or non-channeling, how long do you think it would take Sammael to wipe the floor with them?
One of the first things Aviendha was taught was to throw fireballs. Wise Ones don't normally fight or take sides, but that doesn't mean that they're not trained to fight when OP combat is inevitable.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:34 AM
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Aviendha quite effectively dispatched a Draghkar. On the other hand, Sammael would have an extra element of surprise. If WOs start dropping dead around a captured Rand, then the remaining WOs would assume this was the doing of a man capable of channeling: Rand al'Thor. They wouldn't automatically think of Sammael, even if he were standing next to them, asking in a dumb voice "what's wrong with them, are they all right?".
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:33 PM
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Of course, the prime thing is that Sammael is deader than a doornail.

Do the WOs know how to link? If so, then 13 of them can handle any man and that includes a Forsaken or Rand Al'Thor. However, I am not so sure that they do know about linking.

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Old 08-25-2009, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Alethinos
Do the WOs know how to link?
If we're talking about just the Shaido Wise Ones, then they do not. Neither did the other Wises Ones at that point in the story because Egwene hadn't started teaching them to link, yet.

Sometime after Egwene became Ayrlin, she taught the Wise Ones with Rand to link.
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  #13  
Old 08-25-2009, 03:41 PM
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Fireballs do not make a totality of battle training that a Green would have. And, a Dragkhar is not the same thing as a Forskaen. The Dragkhar always seemed slightly more stupid than your average Shadow Spawn you know? Kind of consumed with making out to the point of obliviousness when it came to fireball-wielding ladies.

But yes, okay, I admit fireballs can be deadly. Do we know why they're even taught them if they don't participate in fights? I can't see a fireball being the first option to protect a group of Aiel from another group of Aiel, or to deter effectively from battle. And we know that they don't go to the Blight, so a) why teach it at all, and b) what else do they know?
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
Fireballs do not make a totality of battle training that a Green would have. ...
Actually, I can't think of any Aes Sedai or Wise One, off-hand, who has engaged in OP combat with anything other than fireballs -- or possibly lightning bolts at longer ranges, and that was an WO apprentice and an AS novice engaged in combat there.

I suspect that Greens might have a wider variety of fireballs and lightning bolts available but compared to Damane, they're woefully unprepared for real OP combat.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:11 PM
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I suspect part of the Greens past time is aimed at learning how armies fight, strategy, logistics and battle tactics. When Mat is planning to fight the Seanchan army the AS keep trying to interfear and I seem to reall a sugestion that the green sister might actually have an idea of what she is talking about.

They probably also learn some other ways to kill but in the last big war against the Shaido I gather they were with the armies acting as counter to the dreadlords.
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Old 08-26-2009, 02:56 AM
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Some WO or WOs used Air to stop Couladin during one of his attacks of murderous rage.
Quote:
Actually, I can't think of any Aes Sedai or Wise One, off-hand, who has engaged in OP combat with anything other than fireballs -- or possibly lightning bolts at longer ranges, and that was an WO apprentice and an AS novice engaged in combat there.
Verin and Alanna had their exploding rocks. Moiraine had the "poke them with a wand and they burst into flame" trick.

But yes, they seem suspiciously inept for an organisation that has been involved in fighting (even if you only count the occasional things along the Blight) for such a long time.

I would make far greater use of subtle methods, primarily using Air (with which AS are supposed to be good):
Make a very thin 'rope' at about throat height in front of the charging Trollocs. Anchor it at the end points, and tie it off. Watch a couple of hundred Trollocs decapitate themselves, until the others learn to duck below it. Make another rope twenty feet ahead, now at knee height. Watch the next batch of Trollocs lose their feet, until they learn to jump. And so on. This will seriously disrupt any charge, giving the ordinary troops a lot more time to use their bows. And it will kill far more Trollocs than the occasional fireball would do.
  #17  
Old 08-26-2009, 07:22 AM
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But that's my point. I think. At least AS have an ostensible reason to try and train to fight with the OP, or at the least to know how to defend with it. The WOs do not. You're right. We've seen them use Air more than fireballs, so why learn fireballs at all?

Unless, and I'd need the quote to be sure, but maybe when they were all teaching Aviendha by horseback in the Waste, the fireball was Moiraine's contribution to the teaching?
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:19 AM
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The fireball was done by Aviendha. But who taught her how to do that was unclear.
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:39 AM
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Exactly. Which speaks to the fact that unless a WO managed to get through Sammael's defenses and slip a knife between his ribs, they'r enot likely to harm him, even if it is 12 against 1. No?
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Old 08-26-2009, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Some WO or WOs used Air to stop Couladin during one of his attacks of murderous rage.

Verin and Alanna had their exploding rocks. Moiraine had the "poke them with a wand and they burst into flame" trick.
Restraining Couladin wasn't using the OP as a weapon. Or at least not as a lethal weapon.

The other examples are really just varations on fireballs. When Wise Ones or Aes Sedai set out to kill in a combat situation, they tend to resort to Fire. Perhaps that is because they see fire as the "destructive element" among the five powers?
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