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  #1  
Old 10-01-2009, 02:00 AM
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Yes, I believe LTT is absolutely real.

I ask you, what happens to a Hero if the job they were spun out to solve isn't fixed? What happens to a Dragon if he doesn't do his job?

This is the question Jordan must have asked himself when he sat down to plan the books. What happens when the uber good guy doesn't get the job done. The answer, in this particular world, is that he can't die. He can draw all the human body can bare of the power, and still not die.

So he destroys his body, but the Pattern won't let him destroy his person.

Trapped, in Dragonmount, for 3000 years, he lies dormant.

Then, the destined one is born upon his slopes, giving the personality a chance to attach itself to the body of the infant. LTT, dormant, not awakened until the ever addicting power of Saidin pulses through Rand.

What changes the destiny of both is the balefire streams. I believe the end result is that the conciousness of Ishamael and Rand will switch places, trapping LTT and Ishamael in the "Al'Thor" body. Rand's concious, moves over to the Moridin body. I figure, somehow, LTT will ultimately control the body, and lead it to a suicide attempt at resealing the Bore.

Quote:
Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Mourning for the precieved loss of the Dragon. Everyone will think he's dead and bury the ashes (boat scene, etc).
Birth, for the emergence of Moridin as the Dragon, Rand.

Rand goes to Shoyul Ghul, and finishes what he is supposed to do, on the day of his return. Then, Rand will actually be able to die.

thoughts?
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-02-2009 at 12:44 PM.
  #2  
Old 10-01-2009, 03:12 AM
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I don't think there is any evidence that it would be possible to split Rand and LTT in such a way.
Besides, it would freak out all the constructors. I can see why you like this idea.
  #3  
Old 10-01-2009, 03:55 AM
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Them, and everyone that is certain that there has to be an eclipse or cloud of dust to block out the sun, and everyone who believes Rand has to die (of course). Three birds, one stone.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-01-2009 at 03:57 AM.
  #4  
Old 10-01-2009, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
I don't think there is any evidence that it would be possible to split Rand and LTT in such a way.
Besides, it would freak out all the constructors. I can see why you like this idea.
RJ said that souls can't be split in an interview. Too lazy to go fetch it.
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  #5  
Old 10-01-2009, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Date: 2005-09-03 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Aan'allein
Q: A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the worlds of If, is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds.
A: I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split, but the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.
I have to use my search for something.
  #6  
Old 10-01-2009, 08:44 AM
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Did the pattern considere the AoL and how it ended a failure? Given the nature of the wheel the same thing probably happens over and over and over again. The impression I had was that the AOl was where the Dark One was rediscovered and civilisation collapsed. The dragon's job is to block his escape and keep the world in being for the 3rd age where the DO can be sealed away again.

Seconly if the soul of LTT was trapped at dragonmoutn how did Hawkwing and the others know him when they were summoned by the horn? I believe RJ said that naming convensions amoung the Heroes was to call each other by the last name they wore in the flesh.

If Hawkwing recognied LTT from some age before the AoL would have not have said "hello Mr x" but instead he called Rand LTT that suggests that they interacted after LTT died. That in turn suggests to me that LTT's soul went to TAR when he died and was not stuck anywhere near Tar Valon or Dragonmount.
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  #7  
Old 10-01-2009, 08:50 AM
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Yeah, Lews Therin did exactly what he was supposed to do. Hawkwing's end wasn't all gold and roses either. Also, RJ has said that the soul enters the body as a fetus, so the timing isn't right for Lews Therin's soul to hop into baby Rand. We've had this discussion before, but Sodas still believes.
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  #8  
Old 10-01-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
thoughts?
You've wound your tinfoil turban too tight again?

Like terez says, 'we've had this discussion before' and each point in your theory has been shot down repeatedly.
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  #9  
Old 10-01-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Did the pattern considere the AoL and how it ended a failure? Given the nature of the wheel the same thing probably happens over and over and over again. The impression I had was that the AOl was where the Dark One was rediscovered and civilisation collapsed. The dragon's job is to block his escape and keep the world in being for the 3rd age where the DO can be sealed away again.
But why procrastinate? The wheel usually fixes the problem, not passing it off for future generations. Makes no sense.

Another problem is that Rand, without LTT, may gain another tie, but does anyone think he'd even have a chance without LTT's memories? No way! The pattern needs LTT's memories to survive so Rand can succeed.

Therefore, I think the Dragons job is to seal the DO, and his personality can't die until that's done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Seconly if the soul of LTT was trapped at dragonmoutn how did Hawkwing and the others know him when they were summoned by the horn? I believe RJ said that naming convensions amoung the Heroes was to call each other by the last name they wore in the flesh.

If Hawkwing recognied LTT from some age before the AoL would have not have said "hello Mr x" but instead he called Rand LTT that suggests that they interacted after LTT died. That in turn suggests to me that LTT's soul went to TAR when he died and was not stuck anywhere near Tar Valon or Dragonmount.
The personalty trapped in Dragonmount doesn't need to be the same as the personalty shown in TAR. The personalty in TAR is a conglomerate, probably created as a reflection of what people think of said Hero. Meanwhile, LTT's real personality seperated from his soul, but remained trapped in Dragonmount.

No soul splitting needed btw. Even before Rand was Rand, the Dragon soul entered that body. Its when the body with the same soul was brought to Dragonmount that LTT's personality was able to catch onto it before its rebirth.

Ltt was still dormant, and since he wasn't in control from the beginning, he was second fiddle to Rand once the OP was present again. If Moridin and Rand swap, I predict Ltt being ready and willing to be in control.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-02-2009 at 12:49 AM.
  #10  
Old 10-01-2009, 11:30 PM
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Some people just don't read the same books as we do.
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  #11  
Old 10-02-2009, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
You've wound your tinfoil turban too tight again?

Like terez says, 'we've had this discussion before' and each point in your theory has been shot down repeatedly.
Yes, WH, avoid actually proving me wrong. I think "shooting down" would be better translated for both of you as willful ignorance of my position. I don't care if you believe me or not, but if you can't even bend your mind to what I'm putting out conceptually, then frankly what good are your comments? Why even post in this thread if you are so bored with my opinions anyhow?

Seems to me you got those tinfoil panties in the bunch because I'm expressing my opinion and you got nothing but hot air.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-02-2009 at 12:45 PM.
  #12  
Old 10-02-2009, 02:43 AM
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We post because you don't bother to include the evidence that has been presented against certain arguments before, so someone has to point it out (again). Well, that's why I posted anyway.
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  #13  
Old 10-02-2009, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Yeah, Lews Therin did exactly what he was supposed to do. Hawkwing's end wasn't all gold and roses either. Also, RJ has said that the soul enters the body as a fetus, so the timing isn't right for Lews Therin's soul to hop into baby Rand. We've had this discussion before, but Sodas still believes.
I wonder why no one asked RJ about the two personality one soul thingy. It was a direct invitation to ask. Maybe they didn't want a RAFO though

But a second personality could have easily entered the Rand fetus on DM. That fits with what we know so far. But that still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.
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  #14  
Old 10-02-2009, 03:50 AM
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Besides, we (realers) don't seem to have decided if it is Rand's soul or LTT's. If its Rand's soul, how come he could pick up callandor? Or was that tuned to personality?. That would leave the barn door open, IMO.

If it was LT's why did Ishy have so much trouble locating the dragon? Many questions we have, few answers there be.
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  #15  
Old 10-02-2009, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
I wonder why no one asked RJ about the two personality one soul thingy. It was a direct invitation to ask. Maybe they didn't want a RAFO though

But a second personality could have easily entered the Rand fetus on DM. That fits with what we know so far. But that still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.
This is why no one believes you when you try to pretend you're not vardene (see the rest of the posts in that thread, especially the next one, which basically echoes your first sentiment here).
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  #16  
Old 10-02-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
The personalty trapped in Dragonmount doesn't need to be the same as the personalty shown in TAR. The personalty in TAR is a conglomerate, probably created as a reflection of what people think of said Hero. Meanwhile, LTT's real personality seperated from his soul, but remained trapped in Dragonmount.
But RJ explicitly said that there was one soul with two personaltities, NOT one soul and three personalities.

That's just the first theory breaker, but it's sufficient to make any further evidence redundant.
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  #17  
Old 10-02-2009, 12:45 PM
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Sodas, I hate breaking down your arguments on this, but they just don't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Yes, I believe LTT is absolutely real.

I ask you, what happens to a Hero if the job they were spun out to solve isn't fixed? What happens to a Dragon if he doesn't do his job?
Why do you think the Dragon didn't do his job? What will be different about Rand's job than what Lews Therin did prior to killing his family?

Quote:
So he destroys his body, but the Pattern won't let him destroy his soul.
Aside from Gray Men, Forsaken and possibly victims of Machin Shin, what other evidence do you have that souls are ever destroyed?

Quote:
Then, the destined one is born upon his slopes, giving the personality a chance to attach itself to the body of the infant.
Is it a soul, or a personality? You'll have to define how a personality could be trapped inside Dragonmount.

Quote:
What changes the destiny of both is the balefire streams. I believe the end result is that the conciousness of Ishamael and Rand will switch places, trapping LTT and Ishamael in the "Al'Thor" body. Rand's concious, moves over to the Moridin body. I figure, somehow, LTT will ultimately control the body, and lead it to a suicide attempt at resealing the Bore.

Mourning for the precieved loss of the Dragon. Everyone will think he's dead and bury the ashes (boat scene, etc).
Birth, for the emergence of Moridin as the Dragon, Rand.
I'm really not following your logic leap, here. What does LTT's death in the AoL have to do with Moridin? I understand your body-switching theory, but how could you possibly derive that from LTT's death?






**Edited for clarity**
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  #18  
Old 10-02-2009, 01:45 PM
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That's fine CC. Doubt is how we get to the truth.

How did he fail to do his job?
I believe his job was to reseal the Bore, the hole in the Dark One's Prison. Not patch it. Patching it with the seals seems to me to be a quick fix. Maybe that was all LTT could do without the women folk? Maybe he expected the women to finally work with him if he showed he could reduce the DO's effect on the world. (trapping the Forsaken would have been an added bonus)

Quote:
s it a soul, or a personality? You'll have to define how a personality could be trapped inside Dragonmount.
Thank you for catching that. I edited the OP to reflect that. I ment to put person (or personality).

I feel that when LTT self-destructed, he destroyed his body. The soul in that case would return to TAR. But the person that is LTT, lay dormant inside Dragonmount unable to die.

We've seen other persons come back to life void of either body or soul. Ghosts and whole towns that were probably wiped out in some war have come back. Granted, this is because of the weakening of the seals, but we have seen other "upset" spirits walking the earth. Heck, whole towns wiped out in wars have come back.

the point is, personalities, if tramatic enough of an event caused it's death, it leaves a ghost behind. Why not for the most tragic, powerfilled death we have yet seen in the books?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
What does LTT's death in the AoL have to do with Moridin?
Because LTT and Moridin are the respective champions of their side. They both have to die.

Remember, I believe LTT's persona is still alive and kicking.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-02-2009 at 01:50 PM.
  #19  
Old 10-02-2009, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
But RJ explicitly said that there was one soul with two personaltities, NOT one soul and three personalities.
I said switch places. There will never be more than 2 personalities in the Rand body.

Are strawmen all you have?
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.
  #20  
Old 10-02-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
But why procrastinate? The wheel usually fixes the problem, not passing it off for future generations. Makes no sense.
I know we don't want to admit this, but: it's a book. If the wheel doesn't procrastinate, we all get to spend ten thousand pages reading about sheep farming and tabac growing.

Quote:
The personalty in TAR is a conglomerate, probably created as a reflection of what people think of said Hero.
Is there evidence for this?
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