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  #1  
Old 10-12-2009, 10:10 AM
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Default Balefire signposts, an Asmodean connection

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoH, Chapter 55, The Threads Burn
He had only a moment's warning to throw himself flat, a hair-thin slice of time between feeling flows suddenly woven and an arm-thick bar of white light, liquid fire, slicing through the wall, ripping across like a sword through where his chest had been. Where that bar slashed, on both sides of the hallways, wall and friezes, doors and tapestries ceased to exist. Severed wall-hangings and chunks of stone and plaster broken free rained to the floor.
So much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire. Who had told him that? Moiraine. She surely had deserved to live.
Balefire leaped from his hands, a brilliant white shaft streaking toward where that other bar had originated. The other failed even as his punched through the wall, leaving a purple afterimage fanning across his vision. He released his own flow. Had he done it finally?
Scrambling to his feet, he channeled Air, slamming ruined doors open so hard that the remnants ripped from the hinges. Inside, the room was empty. A sitting room, with chairs arrayed before a great marble fireplace. His balefire had taken a bite out of one of the arches leading to a small courtyard with a fountain, and another from one of the fluted columns along the walk beyond.
This shows us where balefire was used. It also shows that there is a direct connection to the courtyard where Mat and Aviendha will later sit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoH, Chapter 56, Glowing Embers
Tucking his harp under his arm, Asmodean drifted away from Mat and Aviendha. He enjoyed playing, but not for a pair who did not listen, much less appreciate. He was not sure what had happened that morning, and not sure he wanted to be sure. Too many Aiel had expressed surprise at seeing him, had claimed they had seen him dead; he did not want details. There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.
...
He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face.
Asmodean notices the balefire that was used there.

So, Rand was walking down the same corridor Asmodean later took, and from that corridor he merely had to cross through a sitting room to reach the courtyard with the fountain. That puts very severe constraints on how much time there was in between Asmodean leaving that courtyard and the final "You? No!" after the second quote.

This would seem to rule out a number of potential suspects.
First, it rules out Aviendha, since there wouldn't have been time for her to get ahead of him on that short stretch without overtaking him in the main corridor.
Second, it would rule out any planned attack, since the attacker wouldn't have had time to set up some sort of ambush. This removes suspects such as Slayer and Taim, who might have had a motive for killing Asmodean but wouldn't have had a chance to know that they might achieve that.
It leaves only the opportunity killers, the ones that were surprised by Asmodean but took advantage of that surprise.

I had not before noticed how close he still was, and, more importantly, that we see this same corridor from both Rand's and Asmodean's POV.
  #2  
Old 10-12-2009, 10:31 AM
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Good catch, Gonzo.
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  #3  
Old 10-12-2009, 12:09 PM
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I'm impressed. That's a pretty significant piece of evidence that I've never seen posted before. I've always been a believer in the Greandal theory. Very good stuff.
  #4  
Old 10-12-2009, 12:26 PM
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Its clearly intuitably obvious that based off this BF evidence that Graendal is indeed the killer. All other suspects have been eliminated with the loss of Avi and Lanfear still being held by the Finn.
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Old 10-12-2009, 12:42 PM
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There is no proof that Lanfear was held by the Finns at the time of Asmodean's death. None. Not even a little bit.
  #6  
Old 10-12-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neilbert
There is no proof that Lanfear was held by the Finns at the time of Asmodean's death. None. Not even a little bit.
So she was held for less than a day by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn?

Quote:
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal
Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would.
Note they are both mentioned. Sure there is still no evidence? Not even a little bit?
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:02 PM
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BTW, Huge catch Gonzo. Proof that repeated rereads do pay off.
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  #8  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason wolfbrother
So she was held for less than a day by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn?
Do you remember how time works in Finnland?

Quote:
Note they are both mentioned. Sure there is still no evidence? Not even a little bit?
Still no proof. All you have is proof that she was held, nothing to establish a real world timeline. She could have been held for an hour and your quote would still fit that perfectly.

Last edited by Neilbert; 10-12-2009 at 01:12 PM.
  #9  
Old 10-12-2009, 02:04 PM
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Love it Gonzo LOVE IT
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  #10  
Old 10-12-2009, 04:09 PM
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Good catch. Only goes to prove the Bela theory even more. :3

Hehehe, but seriously, nice catch. Still not sold on the Graendal thing however. ~shrug~

Oh, and Neilbert, how long did it take for Bathamel and Aginor to be reincarnated? Lanfear would have had to have been held, died, been reincarnated, trapped with a coursourva (sp, what I mean is soul trap), and then Morridin would have had to have let her go and kill Asmo. All within less than a day.

RJ would have had to do some serious asspulling to have lanfear as being the killer. And just toss out anything even somewhat "obvious to the casual reader".
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  #11  
Old 10-12-2009, 04:42 PM
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The reincarnation is not instantaneous. For one, an appropriate body has to be available (in Lanfear's case, it might have been Cabriana Mercandes as I recall we've argued that in the past). She was also mindtrapped by Moridin so I doubt she was running around offing rogue Forsaken on her first day back. She goes through the gateway in the morning and then kills Asmo late that afternoon? That's pushing it on the believability. We know that Graendal likes to go through dead forsaken's possessions (she did the same in Illian after Sammael died despite Rand and his people being in and out of the palace repeatedly).

More and more, it looks like Graendal is the last suspect standing.
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2009, 04:54 PM
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Well, they could argue that the body was already available for transmutation/transmigration/reincarnation (whichever it is). However they'd still have to overcome the whole soul trap thingy. And considering how long they tortured Mogheidien after, I doubt they'd just let Lanfear free to off another forsaken after having jeopardized the entire shadow's plan and all that.

Not only that, but as I recall, we didn't even know transmigration was possible as of tFoH. No way Lanfear could be even a little bit obvious, not even a teensy bit.
Frankly, I don't know who killed Asmodean, and whoever it is probably won't bother me in the slightest (unless it turns out to be a good guy, and I would be rather annoyed if it was Aviendha). Lanfear would really bother me, and not from a "awh, but I really hoped that character didn't do it" point of view, but it would just be bad writing, especially when combined with knowledge learned later on in the books and with RJ's Obvious statement.
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2009, 05:05 PM
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Just an FYI, Uno pointed this out several years ago (I'm thinking like 7-8 or so), although I think he found the original write up from the FAQ or some other site that compared the "two" hallways. It's the main reason I've been a suspect of Graendal.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Thief
Just an FYI, Uno pointed this out several years ago (I'm thinking like 7-8 or so), although I think he found the original write up from the FAQ or some other site that compared the "two" hallways. It's the main reason I've been a suspect of Graendal.
Graendal suspect YOU killed Asmo??
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:53 PM
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Gonzo,
I love you pointing this out, but like its been said this was pointed out 7-8 years ago. Course, it was part of the 2 servants theory that was disproven by RJ. What we do know is that the only people who could have killed Asmo had to kill him because of opportunity because RJ said so.

As for your application of said fact, I disagree that Taim did not have opportunity to kill Asmo. If Taim followed Bashere, Bashere would have had to have walked right by the courtyard hallway before getting to Rand. Since we know Asmo was still sitting at the courtyard just before Rand turned away, the timing was right for anyone following Bashere at length to walk into Asmo when he got up moments later. Not to mention, Asmo was singing, so its not hard to fathom the right DF overhearing Asmo.
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Old 10-12-2009, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matoyak
Oh, and Neilbert, how long did it take for Bathamel and Aginor to be reincarnated? Lanfear would have had to have been held, died, been reincarnated, trapped with a coursourva (sp, what I mean is soul trap), and then Morridin would have had to have let her go and kill Asmo. All within less than a day.
Who said the Finns killed her?

Every time I see Lanfear "disproven" it involves some rather heavy assumptions. She was held longer than a day Randland time. She was killed by the Finns. These are both assumptions and are not supported anywhere in the texts.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Gonzo,
I love you pointing this out, but like its been said this was pointed out 7-8 years ago. Course, it was part of the 2 servants theory that was disproven by RJ. What we do know is that the only people who could have killed Asmo had to kill him because of opportunity because RJ said so.
I am quite willing to accept the claim that someone else thought of this first.
And it didn't actually come out of my reread, at least not directly. I remember that Asmodean had noticed the balefire evidence (that had been mentioned in another Asmodean thread here recently). Then I got to thinking "when was balefire used, precisely, in the Rand-Rahvin fight". Most of it (including the finishing blast) happened in TAR, which wouldn't have had any influence on the real palace. So I reread the passages, and found only one balefire exchange before Rahvin retreated to TAR.

Quote:
As for your application of said fact, I disagree that Taim did not have opportunity to kill Asmo. If Taim followed Bashere, Bashere would have had to have walked right by the courtyard hallway before getting to Rand. Since we know Asmo was still sitting at the courtyard just before Rand turned away, the timing was right for anyone following Bashere at length to walk into Asmo when he got up moments later. Not to mention, Asmo was singing, so its not hard to fathom the right DF overhearing Asmo.
That assumes that Rand (and Bashere) were in the same room through which Asmodean also walked on his way to the pantry. Considering the fact that that's not mentioned at all, I think it is a wrong assumption. Either Rand or Asmodean (or both) would have noticed, and we would have seen it from their point of view.
So I think that Rand was in another room which also provided a view of the same courtyard. Which means that anyone following Bashere would have been rather out of position to intercept Asmodean.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:01 AM
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The case for Lanfear for me never involved her dying before killing Asmodean. Nowadays (after we found out she was Cyndane) this is usually brought up by people that wants to quickly dismiss Lanfear, people who think Lanfear did it seldom claim she had time to be put in a new body by the Dark One. More often instead is that the Eelfinn granted a wish that made her able to kill Asmodean. And that is not so easily disproven, if it can be at all.

There is nothing obvious about Graendal, and plenty that makes Lanfear obvious (Asmo thinking about her seconds before he died, the You? No! practically only works for her, she saying earlier that she was going to kill him). The only thing that can make Graendal obvious is if you conclude that she is the only one with opportunity, everyone else is indisposed. And starting the process to disprove everyone else is hardly a thing the casual observer could be said to do.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:10 AM
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Well, there is the whole Forsaken Alliance thing.

Sammael, Rahvin, Lanfear and Graendal were working together.
Lanfear was out of it, though some claim that's not necessarily true.
Sammael was sitting in Illian, doing whatever it is that Forsaken do while waiting their turn to become toast.
Rahvin had just become toast.
That leaves Graendal, making her fairly obvious after all.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:33 AM
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Why isn't Sammael a suspect then?

Graendal was doing the exact same thing he was, yet it's Graendal that's obvious and not Sammael? I don't get it.
 

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