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  #1  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:11 PM
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Default US one step closer to socialism ~~weg~~

U.S. health bill gets Senate committee approval

A major U.S. health-care reform bill took another step forward Tuesday as the influential Senate finance committee approved it by a vote of 14-9.

Republican Senator Olympia Snowe broke with her party to vote for the Democratic health care bill, which will require all Americans to purchase medical insurance. She was the only Republican in Congress to do so.

"When history calls, history calls," she said as the committee debated the bill earlier in the day.

Hoping to garner Snowe's support, Democrats had spent months addressing her concerns about making health care affordable and finding the budget to pay for changes to the system.

Tuesday's vote brought U.S. President Barack Obama's plan to reform the nation's health care system one big step closer to reality.

The pivotal Senate finance panel approved the sweeping legislation, which would usher in a host of changes to the nation's $2.5-trillion medical system.

Much work remains ahead before a final bill arrives on Obama's desk, but action by the finance committee marked a significant advance, capping numerous delays as chairman Max Baucus held marathon negotiating sessions aimed at producing a bipartisan bill.

Insurance companies obliged to take all under new bill
Four other congressional committees acted before August to pass health legislation, so for months, all eyes have been on the finance committee, the last of the committees to approve the legislation.

With Democrats holding a 13-10 majority on the committee, the outcome of Tuesday's vote was not in doubt, but the final days before the long-anticipated vote were rocky.

The health insurance industry released a report contending that the legislation would cause hefty increases in premiums.

The drama threatened to overshadow the vote on the 10-year, $829-billion plan that Baucus has touted as the sensible solution to America's problems of high medical costs and too many uninsured.

The bill includes consumer protections such as limits on co-pays and deductibles and relies on federal subsidies to help lower-income families purchase coverage. Insurance companies would have to accept anyone wanting to buy their plan, and people could shop for insurance within new state marketplaces called exchanges.

Medicaid would be expanded, and though employers wouldn't be required to cover their workers, they'd have to pay a penalty for each employee who sought insurance with government subsidies.

The changes would be paid for by cuts to Medicare providers and new taxes on insurance companies and others.
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:28 PM
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*sigh* Yes because taking a step toward the day where my health problems become everyone else's problem and vice versa (therefore giving everyone else the right to have a say in the solution to my health problems) is such a great thing to be grinning over.
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  #3  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:49 PM
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I'd agree, except I think you are being sarcastic. Look, aside from the fact that our political machine is making a horrible hash out of this crap, we spend much more on worse health care than most countries with nationalized systems.

I am horribly sorry, both that your health is my problem and that such a situation will be orchestrated by the comprimises between two political parties which have the combined IQ of Simple Jack (notably, Political Parties strangely get dumber the larger they are). I am not sorry that this is getting rammed through. Not in the slightest. Yes, its a modestly broken bill that asks for too little and gives away too much (plus enough pork to offend every koshier diet on the East Coast). But its something. Which, for many Americans, will beat the crap out of their nothing.

While you can argue that their nothing isn't your problem, I can argue that if it was you with the nothing, and something could be done modestly, you wouldn't be kinda interested.

Besides. Socialism is no more evil than capitalism. Or liberialism. Or conservatism. Like the vast majority of -isms, its about implimentation not innate qualities. (Communism is an interesting contrast because the only way it 'works' is if human nature doesn't.)

Don't complain that we are getting socialism. For one thing, this is one hell of watered down socialism with a lot of grants to the capitalistic bastards that, let me check, oh yes screwed over nearly the entire planet's economy just last year. If you must complain, complain about the quality of the socialism, and fight to impliment better.
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  #4  
Old 10-13-2009, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Firseal
I'd agree, except I think you are being sarcastic. Look, aside from the fact that our political machine is making a horrible hash out of this crap, we spend much more on worse health care than most countries with nationalized systems.

I am horribly sorry, both that your health is my problem and that such a situation will be orchestrated by the comprimises between two political parties which have the combined IQ of Simple Jack (notably, Political Parties strangely get dumber the larger they are). I am not sorry that this is getting rammed through. Not in the slightest. Yes, its a modestly broken bill that asks for too little and gives away too much (plus enough pork to offend every koshier diet on the East Coast). But its something. Which, for many Americans, will beat the crap out of their nothing.

While you can argue that their nothing isn't your problem, I can argue that if it was you with the nothing, and something could be done modestly, you wouldn't be kinda interested.

Besides. Socialism is no more evil than capitalism. Or liberialism. Or conservatism. Like the vast majority of -isms, its about implimentation not innate qualities. (Communism is an interesting contrast because the only way it 'works' is if human nature doesn't.)

Don't complain that we are getting socialism. For one thing, this is one hell of watered down socialism with a lot of grants to the capitalistic bastards that, let me check, oh yes screwed over nearly the entire planet's economy just last year. If you must complain, complain about the quality of the socialism, and fight to impliment better.
I've read the bill.

I will complain. I will bitch. I will be pissed. I will lose my insurance (I've already been told I will). I will have to go on the public option. I will hate it. Luckily, I get to pay almost 4 years worth of taxes for it before I can actually use it. It's gonna be great. I'm so proud.

And now I'm out of it. Everyone knows how I feel and I'm WAAAAY too passionate about it to even get into this debate again. Suffice it to say that I am beyond pissed.

Now, y'all have fun.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:05 PM
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While you can argue that their nothing isn't your problem, I can argue that if it was you with the nothing, and something could be done modestly, you wouldn't be kinda interested.
Um Firseal, it is me with the nothing. I haven't had health insurance in over a year and I still oppose a government option. And that is in spite of the fact that I'm still paying over $2100 out of pocket for two stitches and a tetnis shot last December. Sei can get into the technical aspects better than I can but the bottom line to me is that the more you reduce individual responsibility for problems, the more you reduce individual liberty for how those problems are handled. The minute other people's resources get involved in my problems is the minute that they get to tell me what to do on how to solve those problems and that is something I cannot abide.
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  #6  
Old 10-13-2009, 04:22 PM
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How long until we have federally mandated fat camps? Obesity is the #1 killer in America, after all. It's for the greater good we all slim down.
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  #7  
Old 10-13-2009, 04:29 PM
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And along with that lets ban smoking, drinking, continue the ban on drugs, cheeseburgers, fetuccini alfredo, coca cola, and all sorts of other stuff that's unhealthy for you. I mean after all, if the tax payer is going to be footing the bill for health care, then the tax payer should get a say in the individual choices that people make that contribute to their need for health care. When you turn responsibility for people's health and well being over to the government, all of those choices stop being individual decisions that people are entitled to make, and start becoming the object of cost cutting efforts.
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  #8  
Old 10-13-2009, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinistrum
And along with that lets ban smoking, drinking, continue the ban on drugs, cheeseburgers, fetuccini alfredo, coca cola, and all sorts of other stuff that's unhealthy for you. I mean after all, if the tax payer is going to be footing the bill for health care, then the tax payer should get a say in the individual choices that people make that contribute to their need for health care. When you turn responsibility for people's health and well being over to the government, all of those choices stop being individual decisions that people are entitled to make, and start becoming the object of cost cutting efforts.
You guys are so funny!
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  #9  
Old 10-13-2009, 06:02 PM
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After all, according to talks with PD, Denmark (and I think other nations in Europe) DO limit the amount of sugar you are allowed to intake with different types of foods, specifically sodas have come up.

Sorry, I'll keep paying for my own health care, and all the rest of you can butt the @#%# out.

This legislation does almost nothing to deal with the real problems in the health insurance system (note I didn't say health care, as health insurance doesn't address dick about health care), all it does is mandate that more people get involved in a mostly broken system and penalizes those that don't, to the tune of more of us paying for this crap.

There is no Public Option currently legislated in the bill that came out of the committee.

Wonder exactly what Snowe got out of the Democrats that was worth enough to make her flip.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:19 PM
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You guys are so funny!
Yeah its goddamn hysterical until you realize its already happening. Drug prohibition is still in effect, smoking has been largely banned in public places in this country, and even things like banning "junk food" in public schools is starting to occur. Hell, San Francisco, the bastion of all things Obama and liberal, is already making a push to fine stores that sell sodas.

http://news.aol.com/article/san-fran...-newsom/676931
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinistrum
Yeah its goddamn hysterical until you realize its already happening. Drug prohibition is still in effect, smoking has been largely banned in public places in this country, and even things like banning "junk food" in public schools is starting to occur. Hell, San Francisco, the bastion of all things Obama and liberal, is already making a push to fine stores that sell sodas.

http://news.aol.com/article/san-fran...-newsom/676931

Hmm... so what's the problem?
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  #12  
Old 10-13-2009, 06:42 PM
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Sorry, I'll keep paying for my own health care, and all the rest of you can butt the @#%# out.
Do you work for the feds or the state? If you work for the feds, you automatically go on the public option, according to the Baucus bill, unless you are a member of congress, of course. I'm not sure how it works on the state level. I do know in our city we've already been told that if the option becomes available we will switch to it because the taxpayers won't have to pay to supply us insurance anymore through their property taxes. (I figure the reason they are going to do this is they'll probably be able to keep taxes on prperty at the same rate or lower and be sitting pretty for the next election).
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:49 PM
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The bill that was passed out of the Committee did not include a Public Option at last report.

Regardless of whether I am on the "Public Option" or not, I may continue paying for my own health care.

Health Insurance is legalized gambling. Health Insurance is NOT about health care. Having Health Insurance does not mean that you are actually going to get "care".

I'm tired of all sides of this argument.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:08 PM
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Hmm... so what's the problem?
The problem is that its my fucking perogative whether I ingest those things, not the governments and not yours. Its my mouth, my esophagus, my digestive system, my lungs, my blood stream, and my body. Its my health that is impacted by those and my happiness that is at issue with my choice to partake in such things. You may be ok with other people telling you what you can eat, drink, smoke, or otherwise put in your body but I'm sure as hell not. Those kind of individualized choices are the very essence of a free society. They're sort of the point of having one in the first place and the minute you take them away is the minute such a society ceases to be free.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sinistrum
The problem is that its my fucking perogative whether I ingest those things, not the governments and not yours. Its my mouth, my esophagus, my digestive system, my lungs, my blood stream, and my body. Its my health that is impacted by those and my happiness that is at issue with my choice to partake in such things. You may be ok with other people telling you what you can eat, drink, smoke, or otherwise put in your body but I'm sure as hell not. Those kind of individualized choices are the very essence of a free society. They're sort of the point of having one in the first place and the minute you take them away is the minute such a society ceases to be free.
I see it like a speed limit. The government establishes speed limits, because if you drive too fast, you can hurt someone -- not just yourself, but someone else can be affected, whether a passenger or another driver. Your bad decision no longer affects just you -- it affects someone else. And that's Not Cool(tm).

That's why the government institutes speed limits, and that's why most, if not all, states have laws mandating auto insurance coverage.

You may think that drugs should be legal, that children should be able to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, that people should be able to eat whatever they want and if they get sick and die, well that's their own damn fault. But it doesn't work that way, unfortunately. Your bad decisions affect me. It kind of becomes my problem when you go to the hospital for drug overdose, heart attack, lung cancer, or a car accident due to drugs, junk food, smoking or alcohol, respectively. When that happens, health insurers have to pay out more, which means premiums go up -- not just for you, but for others who use that carrier.

From a capitalistic standpoint, this makes sense. It saves money in the long run because epidemics like obesity, drunk driving, drug overdoses and lung cancer drop dramatically, which in turn leads to lower health care expenses, which (ideally should) translate to lower health care premiums.

So.. in that light, I fail to see why your argument holds water.

Don't get me wrong. I like McDonalds as much as the next guy, I just don't see why government efforts to reduce consumption of harmful products is a bad thing.
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  #16  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:07 PM
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Camel the indirect harm argument can be applied to all decisions that have the potential to go wrong. And lets face it, that's pretty much all decisions. So since we're so concerned about indirect harm when it comes to "vices" and their effect on health care costs, in order to remain logically consistent, we should be just as concerned about it in other arenas of life.

Shall we start regulating where people can travel too? I mean we wouldn't want people going some place like say the Philippines, spending money, and therefore indirectly supporting violent fringe groups that could come back and kill people. We should probably restrict people's right to travel so that way this doesn't happen.

What about limiting free speech? I mean you could hurt someone's feelings by saying something mean and therefore cause them to do something bad. Thats indirect harm that you'd be responsible for and other people would have to pay to clean up with crime prevention efforts. Therefore would should restrict people's right to free speech to avoid spending tax payer money on police forces.

While we're at it, lets limit people's freedom of religion. I mean after all, quite a few people on this board consider religious belief to be harmful because it leads to stuff like bigotry and hate crimes. The government should be able to step in and prevent that indirect harm from people's poor religious choices too I guess.

And what about sex? Plenty of bad things happen because people have sex, like unwanted pregnancies, std's, and idiot people reproducing. We should have the government put a bunch of restrictions on people's ability to have sex because of all the indirect harm poor decisions regarding it causes that other people end up paying for. That means restrict the right to have it, especially certain kinds of high risk behaviors that can lead to additonal costs like homosexuality, restricting the right to kids, restricting the right to contraceptives, because yanno they encourage people to engage in sexually risky behaviors that we have pay a ton for. And with all the people not having sex, not getting stds, and not having children we can save a ton in health care costs!

If you can't see why the government micromanaging people's lives in order to save money is a bad thing, then I don't know what the hell else to say to you. You may be comfortable living your life at the beck and call of others, but I'm not. The entire point of my life is for me to live, not for someone else to live it for me because they think they know better.
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  #17  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistrum
If you can't see why the government micromanaging people's lives in order to save money is a bad thing, then I don't know what the hell else to say to you. You may be comfortable living your life at the beck and call of others, but I'm not. The entire point of my life is for me to live, not for someone else to live it for me because they think they know better.
Chill out. I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

But to continue this debate, under what circumstances does the government have the right to tell you what you can and can't do, and at what point does that say-so cross the line?
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2009, 08:38 PM
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Default Plunder, plunder, plunder some more.

I'm all for the Government existing to protect my rights and freedoms. However, I'm sick of being plundered by the Government in the guise that it is protecting me. The Government could have passed many laws to fix the system. Instead, they are developing yet another mechanism to Plunder my property.

Amazing.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:43 PM
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Healthcare should be available for everyone, regardless of their spot on the social ladder. I don't think this bill quite does that or does it in the right way.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
But to continue this debate, under what circumstances does the government have the right to tell you what you can and can't do, and at what point does that say-so cross the line?
That's simply. If your actions cause a direct harm to someone else, then and only then should the government step in and prevent them. Its the foundation of most of our criminal laws and government functions such as the military. Then and only then can a truely iron clad causal link between the actions being taken by the individual and the negative consequences we are seeking to avoid exists. And its that causal link that I think is required to truly morally justify government interference in the lives of its citizens. Anything else, IMHO, is just a power grab for the sake of having power.
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