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Old 10-21-2009, 03:07 PM
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Default Post Chapter Two - TGS Discussion

Put any such discussions or comments into this thread. Thanks. It is likely I will be moving posts, if possible, merging them into this thread.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:49 AM
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Default For the spoiler whores

I'm going to be gratuitous, and share what happened through chapter 12 in a vague-ish sort of way, for the spoiler whores, and a bit about after cause I skimmed the next few chapters for points of view. I'm even going to put the only major spoiler I give in spoiler tags so there's that extra assistance to resist. There are a few major spoilers I'm going to avoid revealing at all, and just give hints about, cause I can't do that to people. And I will share even less about the rest if I get to finish it, probably - I got to that midpoint book where things start to get a little crazy. Not going to ruin that for anyone. But I took notes! (And after a while I started putting a lot of ! in my notes!)

Chapter 3: The Ways of Honor (Aviendha's pov, 11 pages). Aviendha is in Arad Doman, and it is reminiscent of Myrelle with Nynaeve, before they found out about Lan, but the Wise Ones are trickier. I was right about the Aiel bit, but not about it being a continuation of Egwene. There is a parallel drawn there, though.

Chapter 4: Nightfall (Gawyn pov, 5 pages). Gawyn asks a few important questions, of himself, and of other people. He's still operating out of Dorlan, the cheese village.

Chapter 5: A Tale of Blood (Rand/Cadsuane 15 pages). Not going to say much here. I noted that Rand doesn't bother to differentiate Lews Therin's memories at a much faster pace than ever before. It's reminiscent of chapter 2 of Rhuidean, sort of, when the memories first start flying, and they all freak Rand out individually. Here, he freaks out once, and iirc, just doesn't bother to think to himself that they're Lews Therin's memories several times. The one that he did figure out, he thought about it three times in a row before he realized it was Lews Therin's memory, an when he realized it, it did still freak him out in the same sort of way that it always has. He's getting used to it, so the memories are starting to really be a part of him, and it's a tight struggle. Also, he wondered why he hadn't seen the short dark woman with Mat recently - that gives a strong clue as to exactly how often he thinks of Mat and sees him! - but that tidbit is awfully strange to me, because Rand saw Tuon, via Semirhage's Mirror of Mists. Maybe I need to read it better.

Cadsuane - listens as Merise questions Semirhage. Other people are there. Cadsuane is frustrated with the questioning situation.

Chapter 6: When Iron Melts (Ituralde 4 pages, Leane 3 pages, Egwene 2 pages). Ituralde questions a Seanchan general, and the general questions him. Leane experiences a scary bubble of evil. Egwene and various other bits of the Tower experience another one.

Chapter 7: The Plan of Arad Doman (Nynaeve, 15 pages). Daigian is teaching Nynaeve the weaves for the Aes Sedai testing, ostensibly not because they expect Nynaeve to take the test any time soon, but rather because Daigian mourns Eben and needs something to take her mind off it. Along the same lines of Egwene questioning these things with the rebels, Nynaeve questions the issue of deference according to strength in the Power. It's good writing. Daigian is the weakest Aes Sedai alive I think (have to double check on that, but I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned before, and she spent longer as novice and Accepted than anyone also). Then most of Nynaeve's pov is her sitting in on Rand's meeting with Bashere and the Aiel chiefs.

Chapter 8: Clean Shirts (Siuan, 19 pages). Few tidbits. Siuan meets with Lelaine, and then with Bryne, and then with Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod. Siuan apparently wasn't entirely sure whether Delana or Halima was the woman channeling saidin, but she figured it was Halima since she'd known Delana forever. Seems strange, since there were so many clues that you'd think with that information that Siuan could have puzzled that much out more confidently than she showed. Lelaine is a tease, but Siuan mentions that Romanda has been seen talking with Marelandra, a distant Trakand cousin.

Chapter 9: Leaving Malden (Perrin, 13 pages). Two small tidbits. Perrin plans to return most people to the Two Rivers as soon as Grady and Neald are rested. However, he talked to Tam, and Tam says he thinks he'll stay with Perrin. He says he thinks most of the Two Rivers men will want to stay. It's not really said outright, but I still have the same 'the storm is coming' feel, really in all these chapters (it's expressed in various ways in each), but I think especially in this one.

Chapter 10: The Last of the Tabac (Ituralde, 12 pages). Going to avoid one spoiler in this that takes up most of the pov. But of course, the last of Ituralde's tabac was the last bit of Two Rivers leaf that he has been saving for last because it is awesome. And he's hanging out in a stedding!

Chapter 11: The Death of Adrin (Aviendha, 9 pages). Turns out it's one of Bashere's men.

Chapter 12: Unexpected Encounters (Egwene, 22 pages). This is the last chapter I had time to read in full. And wow. Going to give one good spoiler here, cause this is the kind of thing the theory junkies crave.

Spoiler:
And it's also one thing that I seem to be right about, based on this chapter and also on my skimming through the rest of the book, so it's the only thing I'm really insanely itching to tell. If I could put it in double spoiler tags, I would, but come on...it's one of those things that at least 90-something Theorylanders knew was coming eventually, and we're a small bunch. Plenty of folks on other websites knew as well.

This is one month after chapter 8, the last time Egwene met with Siuan. Which was quite odd, because there are so many things picking up right where they left off, and then all of a sudden a month is gone. And Egwene has been doing her thing for a month - lots of progress!

She has a lesson with Bennae, the one she clued in to the 13th depository the last time, and advised to ask her Ajah leaders about those secrets Egwene revealed. This is a strange visit, because Bennae apparently followed that advice. She speaks to Egwene very much as hesitant daughter to Mother. And that's just the beginning!

Egwene meets with Suana, and Suana tries to talk her into becoming Yellow! And Egwene does the whole 'Amyrlin has no Ajah' thing, but Suana isn't having that. Egwene is impressed that she has impressed a Sitter (!) and has no idea that she's an Ajah head as well! She had no idea about Adelorna in Knife of Dreams either, or Cadsuane, whom Adelorna compared her to! So it's all starting to clink into place...and still just getting started for this chapter!

Next it's Meidani, who has taken all this time since chapter 2 to call her! Egwene asks those tough questions I've been saying she would be asking (since before chapter 2 even). She's not one to pussy-foot around the situation, and she cut straight to the heart with Meidani, asking why she hadn't fled the Tower, convincing her that she was Amyrlin, back and forth, figuring out in less than a minute that it had something to do with the Oaths. So Meidani found a way around her Oath, with Egwene's help. She couldn't tell Egwene, but she could show her...

So, bam. Down to the basement, Saerin, Yukiri, Seaine, and Doesine, all at once. They didn't have the rod on hand, but Egwene made it clear that she was rather disappointed that they did not. She bullied them just like she bullies everyone else, and she got them to tell her that they'd caught a Sitter - Talene - and managed to convince them that they'd raised Elaida illegally, and even managed to threaten them with the law for the fourth Oath they'd made the rebels swear!

So, that's enough for this chapter, except to mention a thing I glossed over for chapter 8 (a month before, when Siuan met Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod). Lelaine asks Siuan how the negotiations are going, and Siuan says they are not going well, and thinks about the fact that Elaida's 'agents' (she wonders why Elaida is allowing it, because she has no idea that Elaida has forbidden it and no one is obeying her orders) will not back down on Elaida's conditions, and get frustrated every time the reinstatement of the Blue Ajah is brought up. She doesn't realize that they are frustrated because of Elaida, not because of the rebels' reasonable demands. She doesn't know that the Ajah Heads, who are behind both sides of the negotiations in a strange as-yet-undetermined way, are testing Egwene in the Tower. In chapter 16 (which I only skimmed), this is still the case - Egwene meets with Ferane and some other Whites. Again, she only knows Ferane is a Sitter, and not an Ajah Head, but Ferane does her best to coax Egwene toward the White. Egwene also thinks that Bennae had done the same thing, tried to recruit her into the Brown. Apparently she gives them all the 'no Ajah' line, but there has been a theme of her thinking of herself as a Green, so perhaps that's what we'll see in the Adelorna point of view later on.

Also, I skimmed through 'Sealed to the Flame' and 'The Tower Stands' to see if there was any indication of a Seanchan attack, and I didn't see any. Can't guarantee it, but I was in a hurry so I couldn't pay much attention. However, I'd bet that in 'Sealed to the Flame', Seaine realizes that she can (and should) tell Egwene Elaida's exact orders, because after all, she is the Amyrlin. And that is where the bit about Alviarin will come in.


/end major spoilers

I only skimmed these chapters for points of view. Something caught my eye in chapters 16, 22 and 23. But I am NOT GOING THERE FOR 22 AND 23. You will want to just read this.

Chapter: 13 - An Offer and a Departure (Gawyn, 15 pages)

Chapter: 14 - A Box Opens (Cadsuane, 7 pages)

Chapter: 15 - A Place to Begin (Rand 5 pages, Min 9 pages)

Chapter: 16 - In the White Tower (Egwene, 25 pages)

Chapter: 17 - Questions of Control (Cadsuane 5 pages, Perrin 5 pages)

Chapter: 18 - A Message in Haste (Siuan 9 pages)

Chapter: 19 - Gambits (Tuon 17 pages)

Chapter: 20 - On a Broken Road (Mat, 13 pages)

Chapter: 21 - Embers and Ash (Perrin/Faile/Perrin, 13 pages)

Chapter: 22 - The Last That Could Be Done (NOT TELLING YOU)

Chapter: 23 - A Warp in the Air (NOT TELLING YOU)

Didn't catch the rest of the points of view. Maybe more tomorrow, if the Light wills it.
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  #3  
Old 10-22-2009, 07:17 AM
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Soooo hard to resist posting in all the discussions that have become moot points.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:16 AM
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You little tease! Thanks for that, though. I'm somewhat satiated now, or at least, that should get me through another day or so.

I'm thinking even if I got the book early at this point, it wouldn't matter because my daughter's birthday is Monday and we're having her party on Sunday. We also have a Fall Harvest party on Saturday night, so I'll spend most of Saturday cooking for the potluck. Blah.

So, it seems like a lot of "hurry up and wait" for Eggy? I know she's trying to be as methodical as possible, but geesh. Get a move on!
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:33 AM
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It's not her that is waiting, but those who are testing her - the Ajah Heads, and the Hunters. Those with the most power in the Tower, excluding the Blacks in the Hall and Elaida! They are close at the point of chapter 16, though.....very close!

That's almost nothing compared to chapters 22 and 23 though!
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:33 PM
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Darn it, I got accidentally spoiled on the one thing I wanted to keep clean. GAH!
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
Put any such discussions or comments into this thread. Thanks. It is likely I will be moving posts, if possible, merging them into this thread.
Ok, so this was sent to me today, the prophecies for TGS. Didn't want to start a new thread for it.



Ravens and crows. Rats. Mists and clouds. Insects and corruption. Strange events and odd occurrences. The ordinary twisted and strange. Wonders!
The dead are beginning to walk, and some see them. Others do not, but more and more, we all fear the night.
These have been our days. They rain upon us beneath a dead sky, crushing us with their fury, until as one we beg: "Let it begin!"

--Journal of the Unkown Scholar
entry for The Feast of Freia, 1000 NE



At the end of time,
when the many become one,
the last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.

- from The Prophecies of the Dragon,
Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's
Official Translation, Imperial
Record House of Seandar,
Fourth Circle of Elevation.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-22-2009 at 11:41 PM.
  #8  
Old 10-22-2009, 11:48 PM
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Yeah, I was going to wait till I finished to post that one, since they said something about important context. Which looks like it won't be till tomorrow.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:13 AM
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I thought I was going to get to finish yesterday, but I didn't. Maybe today. Anyway, since I didn't get the 'important context' so quickly, I figured I'd go ahead and point out something about the Seanchan prophecy:

I really doubt this prophecy has anything to do with Rand's vision problem. More likely, the 'blind' bit has to do with all the things that he is denying, all of the things he can't see because he's confused about what to focus on. It's a normal human condition, but an especially aggravated problem in Rand's case, particularly concerning Lews Therin, and the issue of strength vs. hardness.

From what I read in the early chapters, in Aviendha's points of view particularly, the Wise Ones are still very concerned about the strength vs. hardness issue, and Aviendha has come up with this observation independent of them. They are testing her, in the early chapters, to see if she is ready to go to Rhuidean for the second time. Aviendha won't be happy till she marries Rand, but she can't do that until she is no longer an apprentice. But mid-book, Rand starts to get really desperate for the sort of thing that Aviendha can give him (not sex). So, still ignorant of the last half of the book (other than that Aviendha does indeed go to Rhuidean), I'm thinking Aviendha will get back from Rhuidean just in time, whether it's in this book or the next.

In any case, this is another clue about what is up with Rand's death. Or his 'death', as some believe. Two important tidbits: 1. He stands on his own grave, and whether that's literal or metaphorical, key thing he is 'dead, yet lives'. 2. He is no longer blind - he can see.

So, out of all the theories for how Rand will die, yet live, which one makes the most sense? How will faking his death help him to see, finally? How will being in Moridin's body help him to see? For the latter, you could say that it's because his vision problem has been corrected. But really...how lame is that? That is what makes him 'weep for what has been wrought'?

Far more likely, I think, is that he is a dead Hero, having knowledge of several Turnings' worth of past life memories, and his eternal role as a corrective mechanism for the Pattern. There's another Christianity parallel there, that supposedly the human brain can only comprehend so much, but in the afterlife, we're supposed to know everything.

It would also work thematically if Lews Therin's 'death' also happened to somehow make it to where the memories were fully integrated with Rand's own. I believe this will happen, but I don't think that Lews Therin will 'die' before Rand does, and I don't think that this sort of metaphorical death would really work to solve all these prophecies.
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  #10  
Old 10-23-2009, 05:21 AM
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This post doesn't really have much to do with any real spoiler for the book - just the small details for chapter 7 that I talked about already, with Daigian and Nynaeve, and the whole 'dead yet lives' thing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. The Horn thing would be cool, but the main point is that Rand be a Hero (in terms of having cohesion at least with Lews Therin's memories) when he finishes the job, and that this be the manner of his 'to live you must die' thing. Because I can also see the scene where Rand is dead, and they're expecting him to be called by the Horn, and he doesn't show up. That would only happen if he had died, been ripped out already, and was essentially on the way to getting there to finish the job (maybe minus the stopping at the grave thing).

Also, there are the 'foreshadowing' things that WH has been yammering about all these years. I don't see Nynaeve Healing death, because having a weave for such a thing would be extremely lame, because death and rebirth are part of the world. I understand that the mind goes this way because Healing is her thing - but she was there when Moghedien ripped out Birgitte.

And this is where I get to the bit from chapter 7 - while Daigian was teaching Nynaeve the testing weaves, there was emphasis (yet again) on the fact that Nynaeve only has to see something once to remember how to do it. The only reason she hasn't learned all the testing weaves yet is because they keep getting distracted from them by other things (which is ostensibly the point).

Dom has a theory that Egwene will be involved in the sealing of the prison because it will involve Tel'aran'rhiod in some way (not sure exactly), but I don't think that Egwene was the one set up to do this. Nynaeve could barely channel a trickle when she captured Moghedien - she used Tel'aran'rhiod to make the a'dam.

However, it appears Moghedien used the Power to do it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 34 - A Silver Arrow

Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. "Go, Nynaeve!" It was a mumbling shout. "Get away!" Birgitte's head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.

The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.

The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.
She saw what Moghedien did to Birgitte as a bad thing - and it was, merely for the reason that it seriously skewed Birgitte's rebirth patterns, at least for this life (as per Min's viewing about her being connected to a much younger man). Anyway, so of course Nynaeve has never considered copying what Moghedien did, because she sees it as a horrible thing to do to someone, and it's not as if she's had any opportunities to do so either. But that does not mean she does not remember how it was done, or couldn't reason it out on her own. Point is, she was there when it was done, and for Rand, it wouldn't be a bad thing. He would come out, appearing like a whole and intact Rand (unless he's attached to his wounds like Jesus was - I doubt it, though he might keep the herons and dragons), the same age as he was when he died, right after he died. It wouldn't disrupt his death and rebirth patterns at all to do that - it would just make him whole and sane. And wise, with Lews Therin's memories fully integrated, and maybe some other past life memories as well.

So, this doesn't explain the twice dawning thing, but it would definitely explain all the live/die prophecies, and WH's foreshadowings of Nynaeve 'Healing' someone three days dead.

Also, more and more I am seeing for Nynaeve a trip to the White Tower, to make sure the Aes Sedai are behind Malkier this time around. That's not really based on anything in the book either...just something she'll probably do.

So - I figure the Horn thing is still a possibility, but this is more likely. It's not as if I haven't considered the idea before - I've actually believed he would be ripped out before, and then I discarded it - but the problem was that I never considered before (for some strange reason) that Nynaeve would be the one to rip him out...I guess I didn't really put much thought into who would do it at all. With that consideration, everything seems to fall together. She's certainly not going to Heal him, but this, she might well do.

So, I was sort of opposed to the idea of Rand living past the Last Battle, but if he lives this way it seems better, for some reason.

This really doesn't address the Rand-Moridin thing at all. But I think my previous post does that well enough.
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  #11  
Old 10-23-2009, 09:27 AM
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I finished the book. And I think it proofs that LTT was real

And did i miss something or is one candidate now excluded from killing asmo??
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:39 AM
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You've what???
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:50 AM
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I have finished the book Sarevok found 2 copies and gave one to me. I wasn't feeling that well (really) so i went home. I was able to read it in about 6 hours.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:01 AM
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So I wonder where Logain's glory and his stepping over "Rand" come into this theory. Is it possible that Logain needs to be involved somehow? Or, rather than Logain being involved in bringing Rand back from T'A'R, maybe he's the one who marshalls the FoL after Rand's death, so a lot of what Ripped!Rand winds up doing at SG gets attributed to Logain?
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowlwoman
So I wonder where Logain's glory and his stepping over "Rand" come into this theory. Is it possible that Logain needs to be involved somehow? Or, rather than Logain being involved in bringing Rand back from T'A'R, maybe he's the one who marshalls the FoL after Rand's death, so a lot of what Ripped!Rand winds up doing at SG gets attributed to Logain?
I figure that Logain will have to take over the Black Tower when Rand dies. That's his glory. He might even be the one to deal with Taim. That's what RJ seems to be building him up for, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Winter's Heart
PROLOGUE - Snow

Logain had been listening without taking part, arms folded across his chest. His face was unreadable, a mask. “Do you worry about the butcher’s yard, Canler?” he said now.

The Andoran grimaced, then shrugged. “I reckon we’re all headed there, sooner or late, Logain. Don’t see we have much choice, but I don’t have to grin about it.”

“As long as you’re there on the day,” Logain said quietly. He addressed the man called Canler, but several of the others nodded.
So, I imagine he'll be handling the Asha'man while Rand is dead.

And Isa, you think everything proves Lews Therin is 'real', lol.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
I finished the book. And I think it proofs that LTT was real

And did i miss something or is one candidate now excluded from killing asmo??
Lol. Most people agree after this book that LTT is real.

And yes, there goes Graendal as a suspect for Asmo.

Funny how I saw both of those events coming before reading the book. But I'm sure there will be many shocked readers.
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Last edited by Sodas; 10-23-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
I have finished the book Sarevok found 2 copies and gave one to me. I wasn't feeling that well (really) so i went home. I was able to read it in about 6 hours.
not feeling well? hah.

I've never been able to finish any WoT book same day though. And from your expression (?) you're mighty glad you changed your mind and read.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:27 PM
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Sodas: I don't think it fully excludes Greandal. Someone else can reveal it as well.

Greatwolf: I have always finished the book on the same day. And I really have the flu Still not feeling well ((

I did really enjoy the book, but I did felt there were some things off. I really hope we someday will able to read what RJ intended. But if Harriet really thinks that RJ wouldn't have wanted it, than it's ok
I think because RJ was this far into the series and set up so many events, things could happen this way.

I will be able to give a better opinion after rereading the book for a second time.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:29 PM
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But didn't Brandon say that it will be worked into the killer's point of view at the most natural time? I pretty much figure that the time, if there was any, for Graendal would be before her death. Just like it was for Sammael.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:33 PM
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No, I looked up one quote of Brandon. ( i am not sure if there are other quotes)
Quote:
re you going to tell us who killed Asmodean?

A: Mr. Jordan's books are particularly special in that they don't always tie up every loose end, but instead leave some things for the reader to imagine and decide for themselves. Originally, as I understand it, Mr. Jordan was not intending to ever reveal Asmodean's killer, as he believed that the books were explicit enough for one to figure it out on one's own.

However, as the years progressed, Mr. Jordan evidently grew to understand just how much this question was bothering his readers. Recently, he had promised that he would—indeed—find a way to explain Asmodean's death in AMoL. He left behind notes regarding this mystery, and Harriet and I have determined a place in the book where we feel it would work to answer this question. So, yes, I will tell you who killed Asmodean.
http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog...stmas!-New-FAQ

I originally thought as well that it would be a pov from the killer. But what if Moridin, the DO or someone else knows who done it?
I do think it decreases the chance she did it. Especially considering they could have put it in the prologue. If she really hasn't done it, than i will be happy.
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