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  #1  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:13 AM
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Default Post chapter two (spoilers) Debate LTT - Rand

The main difference between the “LTT is real” and “LTT is a construct” is the voice.
The realers believe the voice is actually the real voice from LTT and the constructers believe the voice is a construct. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...nstruct+theory)

In this post I will proof that with the evidence we have from EotW till TGS we can conclude that the voice was the real voice of LTT.

-Proof number 1: In the past it has happened before that people heard voices and that dead people took over the living. This has been stated as far back as the EoTW. Plus it is said that the voice and the current day personality needs to be reintegrated.

Quote:
The dead can be reborn, or take a living body and it is not something to speak of lightly. The old blood she said. The blood, not a dead man. I’ve heard it can happen, sometimes. (Eotw, Thom, Shadow’s waiting, page 235)
Quote:
He’s insane. Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin could know. Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice.
It makes no difference that this voice is real, however.Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt.
(KoD, a plain wooden box, Semirhage, p 592)
Semirhage is saying two important things here: 1. Sometimes people hear voices of past lives and 2. It needs to be reintegrated.

At this time she had no reason to lie. It actually causes Rand more stress by saying this.
So these two things are facts. This is what has happened in the past.

So why if dead people can take over the living and it was known in the age of legends and it was known that reintegration was needed, why can’t it be what is happening with Rand?

-Proof number 2: Rand feels more stable and reintegrated into TAR, while he is in the dream. In the dream he doesn’t hear LTT’s voice. This coincides with what we know of Birgitte. That the heroes in TAR are completely reintegrated.

Quote:
Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort, Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin’s memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable – somehow- here in this place where else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly of course, but better than they had in recent memory.
(A place to begin 237)

He’s inside my head. He was gone during the dream. But he’s back now. (A place to begin, page 241)
If the voice of LTT isn’t part of the LTT personality and is a construct, why would it disappear in TAR while Rand is dreaming? He constructed the voice himself, so it should be there. The voice would have had nothing to do with the LTT personality from the past.

While if it is part of the LTT personality from the age of legends than it is logical that Rand can’t hear the voice while dreaming into TAR. It is than a part of him, as it should be.

-Proof number 3:
Based on the following quotes we know the following:
1. Rand hears the real voice of LTT.
2. That voice needs to be reintegrated with Rand.
3. In TAR we see an example how it should be. Rand still has some memories, but he doesn’t hear the voice.
4. Now only the reintegration needs to happen.

The reintegration happens as follows:

Quote:
Why do we have to do this again? He whispered. I have already failed. She is dead by my hand. Why must you make me live it again?

Why? Why had the Creator done this to them? Why?
Why do we live again? Lews Therin asked, suddenly. His voice was crisp and distinct. Yes, Rand said, pleading. Tell me. Why? Maybe… Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be.. Maybe it’s so that we can have a second chance.
(Veins of Gold, page 759)

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again. That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changed everything. He saw the entire world in his minds eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace and joy and hope. Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!
(veins of gold, page 759)

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew somehow that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.
(Veins of gold, page 760)
We see Rand slowly accepting that he is LTT as well. He sees all his lives he lived. He realizes that Lews Therin’s voice was him in the past. They were not two men. Lews Therin was him in the past. Rand is basicly LTT.
Notice that Rand says ‘Lews Therin’s voice’ and not the voice. He says Lews Therin’s voice. He has seen all his lives, but still he realizes it was the real voice of his past incarnation.

Another thing I think helped with the reintegration is LTT letting everything go. Ilyena might live again. Rand is there to correct his errors.


Conclusion:
Rand heard the real voice of LTT in the past. He won’t hear it again, because it is reintegrated into his own personality.
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Last edited by Isabel; 10-26-2009 at 03:16 AM.
  #2  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:25 AM
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Does any realer has an addition?
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:31 AM
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Isa, Tam asked us to confine post-chapter 2 discussion to that one thread until the book is released. You should delete this thread.

I'll be starting a new one anyway, since your straw men are incredibly weak, and your posts are incomprehensible. Better to start off the thread with an argument that actually makes sense.

Also, the title of this thread is a spoiler itself. Tam asked us not to do that as well.
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  #4  
Old 10-26-2009, 04:07 AM
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Terez: You are just annoyed, that you couldn't start with an own thread about LTT and Rand.
You just have to post into this thread I was first, so you just have to react to this thread :P

If things are incomprehensible, just ask what something means, and I try to clear it up

The title isn't a spoiler: it's just a discussion about Rand and LTT. That's nothing new...
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2009, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
Terez: You are just annoyed, that you couldn't start with an own thread about LTT and Rand.
I'm going to start one anyway. I could have been first easily, because my post has been written since yesterday, but I didn't want to continue with you and Sodas, and I respected Tam's rule about starting new threads. I'm going to start a new one because it's better to start a thread with a comprehensible OP. Yours starts out with a false premise, and I addressed that in my post which will go up tomorrow, despite your childish attempts to beat me to the punch.

And the title is a spoiler, because it clearly says that there is an important Lews Therin topic that is dealt with in this book.
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  #6  
Old 10-26-2009, 04:14 AM
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No it doesn't say there is an important Lews Therin topic. As people know we can discuss anything about LTT.

You cannot post a post yet, because you haven't read the complete book.
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  #7  
Old 10-26-2009, 04:16 AM
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BTW what is the false premise??? I would like to know that.
Since it is a fact that the argument was : The voice of LTT is real and the voice of LTT was a construct. That is exactly what you posted in your poll. It's not my problem you create other issues around this topic.
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  #8  
Old 10-26-2009, 04:44 AM
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You will see what I'm talking about when I post my thread. Be patient.
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  #9  
Old 10-26-2009, 05:22 AM
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Well, i will await your reply in this thread.
I warn you, don't try to tell me what my theory is.
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:32 AM
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Spoiler:

If LTT was a construct. Hows was Rand healed??? Cause LTT is no longer there!!!!!
  #11  
Old 10-26-2009, 05:45 AM
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Exactly that is my point. During the reintegration, Rand remembered all his lives and accepted them. He didn't think 'hey the voice doesn't sound like LTT at all'. The only thing he did think was that they were never two persons. Because Rand was LTT in the past.
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  #12  
Old 10-26-2009, 05:46 AM
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The 'voice' is no longer there, but Rand still has the memories. Rand thinks to himself that he will never hear the voice again BECAUSE he has realized that they were not two different people, and never had been. Lews Therin has ALWAYS been a part of himself, so to say that "LTT is no longer there" is extremely inaccurate. Rand's misconception of Lews Therin is what is no longer there.
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:05 AM
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So terez, that still doesn't answer the question if the voice Rand heard was the real voice of LTT. LTT was Rand in the past, so in a sense it was the same person. Rand accepted it, and he got reintegrated. The same as he would have been if he died and went into TAR.
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:10 AM
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For it to be a construct. There must have been some form of madness. He was not healed so what happend to him then? I think he got reintegrated. Which would mean he was there.
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
So terez, that still doesn't answer the question if the voice Rand heard was the real voice of LTT.
It was not, because in order for it to be that, Lews Therin and Rand would have to be different people, which it has clearly been said that they are not. That doesn't mean that the Lews Therin's memories weren't real, or that Rand didn't occasionally accurately represent Lews Therin's personality in some way through the constructed personality. But most often, that 'personality' expressed Rand's suppressed thoughts and emotions. The memories came directly to Rand, something like 99% of the time. The constructed personality was Rand's way of disassociating himself from Lews Therin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dead
For it to be a construct. There must have been some form of madness. He was not healed so what happend to him then?
What happened is that he realized that he and Lews Therin were the same man, and always had been. It was his denial of this that caused him to construct the persona in his head. The reintegration happened when he finally accepted the truth.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:22 AM
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You still haven't replied to my post. There are simply 3 things you have to reply to.
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:24 AM
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I told you - it will all be in the post I make later today.
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:29 AM
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You have to reply to my post and my points. I posted the thread first
If you are so afraid that your theory doesn't make any sense if it isn't posted on its own.... tsk tsk tsk.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:25 AM
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haha, I said I was going to reply to your points. Pay attention. Also, no one is impressed that you made a thread before I did, seeing as how I said in the first place I wasn't going to make mine till the book came out. And finally...I want to finish the parts of the book I didn't read before I post, so that I can use any other interesting quotes that might be hiding in there. Though the one I've got is really all I need, it can't hurt to have more.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
What happened is that he realized that he and Lews Therin were the same man, and always had been. It was his denial of this that caused him to construct the persona in his head. The reintegration happened when he finally accepted the truth.
But you are stating here that he had a form of madness and it just went away because he realized he was crazy? I haved lived the mentaly ill. f he indeed had a form of maness it would not have gone away because he realized it was crazy. He would still have trhe construct un his head talking to him. My uncle knew he was crazy and it never changed what he did.Even though he was aware that alot of what he did was not normal he could do nothing about it. So if at any point hehad a construct like you say. He was crazy and crazy dont just disappear. And you have showed nothing to prove he was healed. He cant heal himself can he??? No. So tell me where did the madness that caused this construct of yours go?

And the truth will not heal crazy.
 

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