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  #1  
Old 10-26-2009, 01:36 PM
Yellowbeard Yellowbeard is offline
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Default Question from a noob about real vs. construct

How are you guys defining "real" vs. "construct"?

I've been thinking of it in a certain way, but then reading in the spoiler threads about it, got me wondering if supports of "real" are even in agreement about the definition of "real". Same for supporters of "construct".

So my question is: What's your definition of "real"? What's your definition of "construct"?
  #2  
Old 10-26-2009, 01:49 PM
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"Real" is correct, "construct" is wrong. Anything else is up for change, I think. Though the constructivists hold the opposite viewpoint, of course.
Does that clarify the debates a bit?
  #3  
Old 10-26-2009, 01:59 PM
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To sum up succinctly:

Construct theory: Only LTT's memories are in Rand's head, he subconsciously built up a personality around them.

Real LTT theory: LTT's memories and original personality are both in Rand's head.
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:08 PM
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So per the Construct theory - the LTT personality isn't necessarily the same personality that LTT developed over his original life?

But in the real theory - it is?

So the argument is really whether Rand has completely rebuilt the original personality of LTT in his head or if he his mind has rebuilt something separate from Rand's personality, but still not the same personality as LTT from the AoL?
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:52 PM
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Realer's argue that LTT in Rand's mind is sentient, and does things (i.e. seize saidin) without Rand's consent (whether subconscious or conscious) or intention.

Constructivists argue that Rand received memories from his soul's previous incarnation due to a degradation of the barrier from exposure to large amounts of the taint on saidin, and then formulated the personality of Lews Therin from these memories. Additionally, Realists tend to argue that LT can never really take control of Rand or do anything without some measure of Rand agreeing (subconsciously or not).

I still don't know how realists argue that LT is real though, given that souls are reincarnated and personalities are not, and that Rand has only one soul in his body. But, to each his/her own.
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Old 10-26-2009, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
So the argument is really whether Rand has completely rebuilt the original personality of LTT in his head or if he his mind has rebuilt something separate from Rand's personality, but still not the same personality as LTT from the AoL?
That's an aspect of the argument, but not really the fundamental reason why we argue it.

Abbey actually had a very good breakdown of why this is actually debated, instead of being an academic question.
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Abbey actually had a very good breakdown of why this is actually debated, instead of being an academic question.
Preeecisely....with one nitpick. The construct theory is not dependent on the barrier degradation theory, and many constructors have different ideas about how Rand came to have those memories.

Example:

1. While Rand is in Tel'aran'rhiod fighting Rahvin, Lews Therin tries to take over his body and make him into Lews Therin.

2. While Rand is in Tel'aran'rhiod fighting Rahvin, he gets caught in a trap that causes him to start to fade from reality. He has the memory of how to fix it, from Lews Therin's memories, and he subconsciously uses those memories to fight the trap. As he succeeds, he realizes that he has used Lews Therin's physical features to fight the trap. Rand naively comes to the conclusion that Lews Therin was trying to take over his body and make him into Lews Therin.

If you believe 1, then you are a real'er. If you believe 2, you are a constructor.

Another example:

1. In Rand's head: Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. This is Lews Therin, talking to Rand. Or maybe not to Rand, but this is Lews Therin talking.

2. In Rand's head: Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. This is Egwene frustrating Rand, and Rand comparing her to the previous woman in his life, and then freaking out cause he has no idea where that memory came from, and then deciding that he is 'hearing voices'.

This is the only reason why we debate it - each passage has a different interpretation for the opposing beliefs. This is the difference between 'real' and 'construct' - the semantics of 'real' and 'personality' and such are largely irrelevant. Real'ers see Rand and Lews Therin as being different people with different thoughts and such (though they share a body and soul and all); constructors see them as being one person. One very understandably confused person, but one person. The fact that this one person remembers his past life is an anomaly, but that does not change the fact that it is one person.
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad
Realer's argue that LTT in Rand's mind is sentient, and does things (i.e. seize saidin) without Rand's consent (whether subconscious or conscious) or intention.

Constructivists argue that Rand received memories from his soul's previous incarnation due to a degradation of the barrier from exposure to large amounts of the taint on saidin, and then formulated the personality of Lews Therin from these memories. Additionally, Realists tend to argue that LT can never really take control of Rand or do anything without some measure of Rand agreeing (subconsciously or not).

I still don't know how realists argue that LT is real though, given that souls are reincarnated and personalities are not, and that Rand has only one soul in his body. But, to each his/her own.
And again I don't fully agree with that. Realers think LTT is real and therefor can do things without Rands consent.
The constructers say that the voice isn't the personality of LTT.
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
The constructers say that the voice isn't the personality of LTT.
And you continue to misunderstand what we mean by that, despite thousands of attempts at clarification. So, I have broken our disagreement down into better terms that actually mean something. Your way of going about it is the main cause of confusion like you see in the OP.
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:34 AM
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No, you are trying to make it out that you are right. If LTT's voice is the real personality, than we actually believe the same and no use discussing that.
Than it's only a discussion about how he got the voice / personality and that's not interesting.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
And again I don't fully agree with that. Realers think LTT is real and therefor can do things without Rands consent.
I fail to see how that is any different than what you quoted...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
The constructers say that the voice isn't the personality of LTT.
That is correct. For construct theory, the voice is instead a reconstruction of the personality of LTT.

So I guess I don't actually understand what you're disagreeing with.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:41 AM
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Bela: what is different is the real part. That is essential, not the consiousness.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:48 AM
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Have you changed your mind about Lews Therin having his own consciousness, Isa? Because it doesn't look like it from your earlier post - you still say that Lews Therin can do things without Rand's consent. That clearly implies that Lews Therin has a will of his own - a separate awareness.

Not sure what else you would be getting at when you say 'real' here, other than the same thing you've been saying all this time. Have any of your views changed? Because there are certain aspects of Lews Therin that are very real, that the constructors have never denied (namely the memories, but also the personality that is a part of that...but that personality does not talk to Rand in his head. The construct does that.)

If you haven't changed your views, then you need to be more clear about what you think we disagree about. I have been very clear - you have said essentially nothing.
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:52 AM
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The voice is the real personality of LTT and could do some things apart from Rand. However, since they are in the same head /sharing the same brain, they should be influencing each other.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
The voice is the real personality of LTT and could do some things apart from Rand. However, since they are in the same head /sharing the same brain, they should be influencing each other.
So you still believe that he has his own awareness, correct? Because that is what is required to 'do some things apart from Rand'.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
Bela: what is different is the real part. That is essential, not the consiousness.
Not necessarily trying to be difficult, but I do not understand this explanation.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Not necessarily trying to be difficult, but I do not understand this explanation.
Spoiler:
That is because you haven't read the book, and you don't see what she is trying to weasel her way out of. It's two souls all over again, but some theories are like Halfmen.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
While Rand is in Tel'aran'rhiod fighting Rahvin, he gets caught in a trap that causes him to start to fade from reality. He has the memory of how to fix it, from Lews Therin's memories, and he subconsciously uses those memories to fight the trap. As he succeeds, he realizes that he has used Lews Therin's physical features to fight the trap. Rand naively comes to the conclusion that Lews Therin was trying to take over his body and make him into Lews Therin.
I meant to mention - I still have a theory that it wasn't actually a trap by Rahvin, but rather a noob reaction for Tel'aran'rhiod, because Rand couldn't control his thoughts. He thought that he was glad to be rid of Lews Therin, and before he could even finish the thought, he started fading.
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Old 10-27-2009, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Preeecisely....with one nitpick. The construct theory is not dependent on the barrier degradation theory, and many constructors have different ideas about how Rand came to have those memories.
I know, I was merely summarizing the most common theory for Rand's memories of LTT (from Callandor's original theory, which I gather reflects the most popular beliefs of the construct'ers for why Rand gains access to his previous soul's memories).

Quote:
This is the only reason why we debate it - each passage has a different interpretation for the opposing beliefs. This is the difference between 'real' and 'construct' - the semantics of 'real' and 'personality' and such are largely irrelevant. Real'ers see Rand and Lews Therin as being different people with different thoughts and such (though they share a body and soul and all); constructors see them as being one person. One very understandably confused person, but one person. The fact that this one person remembers his past life is an anomaly, but that does not change the fact that it is one person.
That's not the only reason to debate it. I debate it because the inherent fact that Lews Therin is a construct of Rand's (if indeed he is) makes it that he can't really do anything that Rand doesn't somehow declare kosher; he is an aspect of Rand, and therefore can't do things like completely take over his body without Rand somehow subconsciously allowing it.

Conversely, if Lews Therin was a free thinking entity, a personality that survived 2,000 some odd years (by whatever reason) completely independent of Rand, then he would be able to try to fight for control of Rand's body, etc. This would lead to all sorts of other theories and ways of fulfilling the prophecies (that Real'ers postulate) that would reflect Lews Therin being able to take control of Rand, possibly inhabit Moridin's body... the list goes on. If he were the mere construct formulated around Rand's memories, these would not be possible, and once Rand has integrated the personality of LTT he would not longer feel like he has to struggle for control.

Take your previous examples. Let's say Rand is in T'a'R fighting Rahvin. If LTT is real, LTT has the ability to literally take control of Rand. Whereas if Rand merely attributed LTT 'taking over' to cope with how he has LTT's memories in his head, LTT does not have the power to affect Rand in any way, and is merely a defensive mechanism as a means for Rand to circumvent him consciously knowing the fact that he has strange memories from a past life inside his head.

Therefore, the reason for this debate is far from merely academic. The answer to whether LTT is indeed a construct has huge repercussions on the outcome of the series.
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Last edited by AbbeyRoad; 10-27-2009 at 01:24 AM.
  #20  
Old 10-27-2009, 01:18 AM
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Bela: What I find most important is that the voice is the real voice from LTT how he was in the past.
I do believe he could do some things, but it was still Rands body.
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