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  #1  
Old 10-27-2009, 02:23 PM
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Default 'Lews Therin is real' debunked

For the last few days, I’ve only had access to one significant quote that proves the construct theory. Isa was going on about ‘this book proves Lews Therin is real’, which never really worried me, because Isa thought that ‘one soul, two personalities’ proved two soulers were right all along.

However, I asked someone from another forum who had a book to try to give me a quote that would sum up the Lews Therin plot in this book. This is what I got:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE – The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 – Veins of Gold

He realized – somehow – that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.
I almost danced when I got that email, because it’s exactly what the construct camp has been saying all along, what I have been saying. Rand’s conception that Lews Therin was another man in his head was wrong.

I’ve been gloating about it for a few days now, not even having read the book really past chapter 12. I skimmed 13-23, but only really got to read 22 and 23, because the Semirhage point of view caught my eye. So, Isa has been going on about how I need to read it so I can see how it proves Lews Therin is real, but I was never worried, for the aforementioned reasons. Isa wouldn’t believe construct if BS and Harriet told her it was true directly – she would just then accuse them of making it up, and that RJ intended for Lews Therin to be real.

Add that to the quote above, which completely sums up the construct theory, and it’s pure WIN. Of course, Isa has been trying to make it seem as if it supports her theory, but that is no surprise, since she still thinks that the two soulers won.

The quote above, while awesome, is only one tiny bit of the validation of the construct theory in this book – the ‘sum’ quote that I asked for. The conversation between Rand and Min in chapter 15 is the other side of the equation. This is the passage that sets up the Lews Therin climax.

You can see right off why Isa might believe that this is proof that Lews Therin is ‘real’. It’s essentially Rand saying what he has believed all along about Lews Therin. What the constructors have been harping on for all these years is that this is only what Rand believes about Lews Therin. It is not the truth. Up until now, it has always been ‘a matter of interpretation’. The constructors interpret a passage one way, and the real’ers interpret it another way.

But now, we have Min, who now knows about Lews Therin! First time we’ve had the opinion of someone else who actually knows about Lews Therin! And guess what?

Rand argues textbook real’er theory…..and Min argues textbook construct theory. Sometimes aloud, and sometimes thinking to herself. Those of you who are familiar with the debates we’ve been having will recognize this in the wording and the arguments that are made.

However…the most important thing is that Rand covers all of the usual bases for the real’ers – Semirhage was right, he’s really there, he talks to me and reacts to stuff, and even takes over sometimes. He obviously is representing the real’ers’ beliefs here – he has been the cause of that theory (which is not really even a theory, because it was always so obvious to everyone!) all along – and this is the kicker:

He defines ‘real’. We have been struggling to get the real’ers to define ‘real’ for a long time now, and they haven’t been able to do it in a way that doesn’t get bogged down with semantics. Rand got impatient with them, so he’s defined it for us so that we don’t have to argue about it any more:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE – The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 – A Place to Begin

“Semirhage was right,” Rand said. “I hear . . . things. A voice. The voice of Lews Therin, the Dragon. He speaks to me and responds to the world around me. Sometimes, he tries to seize saidin from me. And . . . and sometimes he succeeds. He’s wild, Min. Insane. But the things he can do with the One Power are amazing.”

He stared off into the distance. Min shivered. Light! He let the voice in his head wield the One Power? What did that mean? That he let the mad part of his brain take control?

He shook his head. “Semirhage claims that this is just insanity, tricks of my mind, but Lews Therin knows things – things that I don’t. Things about history, about the One Power. You had a viewing of me that showed two people merging into one. That means that Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He’s real.”

She walked over and sat next to him. “Rand, he’s you. Or you’re him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they’re remnants from who you were before.”

“No,” Rand said. “Min, he’s insane and I’m not. Besides, he failed. I won’t. I won’t do it, Min. I won’t hurt those I love, as he did. And when I defeat the Dark One, I won’t leave him able to return a short time later and terrorize us again.”

Three thousand years a “short time later”? She put her arms around him. “Does it matter?” she asked. “If there is another person, or if those are just memories from before, the information is useful.”

“Yes,” Rand said, seeming distant again. “But I’m afraid to use the One Power. When I do, I risk letting him take control. He can’t be trusted. He didn’t mean to kill her, but that doesn’t change the fact that he did. Light . . . Ilyena. . . .”

Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that is was the other person inside of them who did horrible things?
I think that this is probably one of the most satisfying passages in WoT that I have ever read. Notice that Rand denies Min’s construct argument – that it’s just memories, and that Rand really is Lews Therin – for the same reasons that we have been saying all along are the reasons why Rand denies Lews Therin: Rand doesn’t want to accept that he was the one to kill Ilyena, that he might be the madman. Lews Therin is the madman. Min, like a true constructor, questions that as well. However…

Rand’s definition of ‘real’: “Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He’s real.”

Lews Therin is ‘real’: Rand and Lews Therin are distinct; two people

From the climax of the book, and the final integration of Rand and Lews Therin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE – The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 – Veins of Gold

He knew – somehow – that he would never again hear Lews Therin’s voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.
Rand finally admits to himself that he was wrong about Lews Therin being 'real' - he defined 'real' as 'Lews Therin and I are distinct. Two people." But all along, they have been one man.


/real’ers
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2009, 02:36 PM
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~blows brains out~

Yeah, I'm rereading and will get back to you. I don't know which side I'm on at this point.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:40 PM
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It's pretty cut and dried. Rand goes into all the details of what he thinks Lews Therin is. He agrees with the real'ers exactly. He defines 'real' as meaning that they are two distinct people, which is what the real'ers have believed all along (at least in the sense that Rand is speaking of). If 'real' means 'two distinct people' (which it does, according to our debates over the years), then 'real' was disproven when Rand said that he realized that they were not two men, and never had been.

There's just not any getting around that.
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:12 PM
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I started off trying to argue against this, but ended up rambling a bit, really just thinking out loud. So sorry if this makes even less sense than usual.

"Men" is extremely ill-defined in all this.

Min manages to get something wrong within three lines of that quote starting. (When she says that Rand "lets" LTT wield saidin, which isn't at all what Rand said. She sees it as Rand's unconscious mind making the decision to let the voice take control because that's what she believes. So doesn't this boil down to "I'm right because Min says so, and we know Min's right because Min says so"? But then, if that is the case, and Min is wrong and LTT is real, how does the reintegration work? I guess it doesn't, which comes back to Min was right.)

Bah, I hate this theory. I still don't see why it matters (though I concede it probably does, I still don't see what a construct could do that a real LTT couldn't. Well, except for that reintegration thing, maybe, but since RJ could pretty much make the rules whatever he wants...)
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer
I started off trying to argue against this, but ended up rambling a bit, really just thinking out loud. So sorry if this makes even less sense than usual.

"Men" is extremely ill-defined in all this.
The meaning of 'men' is obvious, especially in the context of the quote where Rand defines 'real'. It might be loosely defined, but we know enough to know that Rand was referring to them being 'distinct', or 'two people', or 'two men'. They all mean the same thing, quite obviously. That's why Rand knows that he will never hear the voice of Lews Therin again - that voice was part of the illusion that they were two men. That illusion is gone now, because Rand has accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own (integrated).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer
Min manages to get something wrong within three lines of that quote starting.
She didn't get anything wrong - she just gave her interpretation of it. Since Rand's interpretation was obviously wrong, then it makes no difference what Rand said. Rand is a real'er; Min is a constructor. So Min was probably a lot closer to the truth than Rand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaga
So doesn't this boil down to "I'm right because Min says so, and we know Min's right because Min says so"?
This isn't about what Min believes, though her arguments for the 'construct' idea are definitely gratifying. It's about Rand defining 'real', and then confirming later on that Lews Therin had never been 'real'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaga
I still don't see why it matters
It only matters because it requires you to reevaluate Rand's entire plot arc, if you want to know what was really going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaga
I still don't see what a construct could do that a real LTT couldn't.
If Lews Therin is real (which we now know he was not), then everything is as it appears to be. If Lews Therin is a construct (which he was), then it was Rand doing these things all along. For example, in Knife of Dreams, it was Rand that wanted to kill himself after the Shadowspawn attack.
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  #6  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:19 PM
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Also, if LTT was real, he could have been able to take over Rand's body. In fact, there were a lot of theories out there with LTT taking over Rand's body and sealing the bore, or LTT taking over Moridin's body... a whole bunch of crazy theories. LTT could do all of those things if he were a free entity.

However, if it was really Rand doing these things, then it's no longer possible. With the two integrated, these loony theories are no longer valid plot points, but it still is a huge measure of characterization both into Rand's sanity and overall mental state throughout the series.
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:25 PM
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Also, the "Lews Therin will 'die' fulfilling the prophecies of Rand's death" theory is dead.
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:27 PM
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Thank God. I hated that theory.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:57 AM
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Bullshit Terez: And again you are doing it. Saying what I should think.
Quote:
Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He’s real.”
you are saying = real is distinct. Nope, real is authentic. The way, LTT would have responded. The personality of LTT.
You cannot say Isa's definition of real is the same as Rand's definition of real.

Rand and LTT are the same Dragon Soul. So whatever LTT did in the age of legends. You could argue it's the same person. But that doesn't mean Rand didn't have two personalities in his head.

You still haven't explained the fact that Rand didn't think : the voice didn't sound like LTT at all.
That is not what happened. Rand saw all his lives, also as LTT and accepted what he (the soul) did at that time.


You also haven't explained why Rand could have become LTT, if it was only a false contstruct of LTT's memories and not his personality.
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Old 10-28-2009, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
It's pretty cut and dried. Rand goes into all the details of what he thinks Lews Therin is. He agrees with the real'ers exactly. He defines 'real' as meaning that they are two distinct people, which is what the real'ers have believed all along (at least in the sense that Rand is speaking of). If 'real' means 'two distinct people' (which it does, according to our debates over the years), then 'real' was disproven when Rand said that he realized that they were not two men, and never had been.

There's just not any getting around that.
Terez: stop doing that. You can read back and see that we always meant that LTT was real in a sense of authentic.
Yeah, he could also do things.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:00 AM
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Alright, here goes. This may not be a completely exhaustive list, but it's a very good start, if I may be so bold.

There are a few different hallmarks of the Rand/LTT interactions in this book. 1) Rand remembers something, and does not attribute this memory to LTT like he usually does. 2) Rand hears LTT's voice, and realizes/remarks on how it's more and more similar to his own these days. 3) Rand thinks something that is in-character for LTT's thoughts and memories, but the passage is clearly marked as Rand thinking it, not LTT.

Quote:
Light! he thought. I'm losing control. Half the time, I don't know which voice is mine and which is his. - Rand, p.63
An example of Rand becoming increasingly incapable of telling the difference between his thoughts and LTT's.

Quote:
Why, there might be another Jorlen Corbesan among the very men the Sea Folk tossed into the ocean!

He froze. Jorlen Corbesan had been one of the most talented Aes Sedai before the Breaking, a man who had crafted some of the most amazing ter'angreal Rand had ever seen. Except Rand had not seen them. Those were Lews Therin's memories, not his. - Rand, p.102
An instance of Rand remembering things that LTT experienced, not realizing it at first (as we've seen many times in previous books). As the book progresses, this occurs more often, but becomes more automatic - i.e., Rand doesn't realize these aren't "his" memories.

Quote:
What would happen when he died? Wars and devastation to match the Breaking? He hadn't been able to help that last time, for his madness and grief at Ilyena's death had consumed him. Could he prevent something similar this time? Did he have a choice? - Rand, p.104
Rand thinking of himself as LTT, instead of hearing LTT's voice.

Quote:
"The Great Lord can grant you sanity, you know," Moridin said.

"Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort," Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin's memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable - somehow - here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than they had in recent memory. - p.237
The dream sequence was particularly interesting, as LTT's voice was gone but the memories all remained. Rand again spoke of himself as if he was LTT.


Quote:
"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?" - p.238
Another example of Rand speaking as LTT.

Quote:
"Semirhage claims that this is just insanity, tricks of my mind, but Lews Therin knows things - things that I don't. Things about history, about the One Power. You had a viewing of me that showed two people merging into one. That means that Lews Therin and I are distinct! Two people, Min. He's real."

SHe walked over and sat next to him. "Rand, he's you. Or you're him. Spun out into the Pattern again. Those memories and things you can do, they're remnants from who you were before."

"No," Rand said. "Min, he's insane and I'm not. Besides, he failed. I won't. I won't do it, Min. I won't hurt those I love, as he did. And when I defeat the Dark One, I won't leave him able to return a short time later and terrorize us again."

Three thousand years a "short time later"? She put her arms around him. "Does it matter?" she asked. "If there is another person, or if those are just memories from before, the information is useful."

"Yes," Rand said, seeming distant again. "But I'm afraid to use the One Power. When I do, I risk letting him take control. He can't be trusted. He didn't mean to kill her, but that doesn't change the fact that he did. Light... Ilyena..."

Was this how it happened to all of them? Each one assuming that they were really sane, and that it was the other person inside of them who did horrible things? - p.242-3
Terez has already pointed out most of the salient points of this passage, but I retained it for completeness's sake.

Quote:
We're in the box again! Lews Therin cried.

And suddenly, he was. He could see it, the black confines, crushing him. His body sore from repeated beatings, his mind frantic to remain sane. Lews Therin had been his only companion. It was one of the first times Rand could remember communicating with the madman. Lews Therin had started to respond to him only shortly before that day.

Rand hadn't been willing to see Lews Therin as part of himself. The mad part of himself, the part that could deal with the torture, if only because it was already so tortured. - p.350-1
A particularly interesting quote. Rand thinks of LTT as a part of himself - not in terms of being an incarnation from his past, but in terms of being a specific part of his mind. Which is, of course, the Construct theory in a nutshell.

Quote:
How can we continue the list if we don't know the names! In war, we sought out the Maidens who had fallen. We found every one! The list is flawed! I can't continue!

It's not your list!
Rand growled. It's mine, Lews Therin. MINE!

No!
the madman sputtered. Who are you? It's mine! I made it. I can't continue now that they're dead. Oh, Light! Balefire? Why did we use balefire? I promised that I would never do that again... - p.654
And here, interestingly, we have an inversion of the earlier moments - LTT claiming Rand's memories as his own, and claiming to have thought things when we know Rand was the one who originally thought them.

Quote:
It will be a mercy, Lews Therin whispered. Death is always a mercy. The madman didn't sound as crazy as he once had. In fact, his voice had started to sound an awful lot like Rand's own voice. - p.752
A continuation of the theme from the very first quote I posted.

Quote:
Why can't I be strong enough? He didn't know if the thought was his or if it was Lews Therin's The two were the same. Why can't I do what I must? - p.753
And now we're specifically being told that the thoughts are blending.

Quote:
Why have we come here? Rand thought.

Because, Rand replied. Because we made this. This is where we died. - p.754
Another fascinating bit - Rand answering Rand. Not Rand answering LTT or vice-versa: it's just Rand talking to himself. Personally, I think this is the most explicit piece of evidence in the whole book.

Quote:
It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.

I want to do it right this time.
- Rand, p.759
Once again, Rand thinking of LTT's actions/past/memories as his own.

Quote:
And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been. - p.760
Aaaaand scene. This is exactly what we've been arguing all along. I still think the quote two up from here is the most explicit, but this is definitely the runner-up.


So, I would argue that there is a clear progression in this book, from Rand still thinking of LTT as a separate person with separate memories, to not being able to tell the difference between himself and LTT any longer, to finally realizing and accepting that LTT was only a facet of his own mind all along.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
So, I would argue that there is a clear progression in this book, from Rand still thinking of LTT as a separate person with separate memories, to not being able to tell the difference between himself and LTT any longer, to finally realizing and accepting that LTT was only a facet of his own mind all along.
I would see that more as two personalities being in one mind and so interacting and merging with each other.
If LTT gets Rand memories and Rand gets LTT memories, than they would resembly each other more closer.

I never believed that LTT would stay completely seperate from Rand.

However, you stil haven't adressed the point of LTT being authentic LTT.
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  #13  
Old 10-28-2009, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Isabel
However, you stil haven't adressed the point of LTT being authentic LTT.
That's primarily because I no longer have any inkling of what you mean by that.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:12 AM
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Belazamon: that's the most obvious thing to me.

It's quite simple. Authentic / real is LTT reacting the same way as he did in the Age of Legends (having the same personality) only than inside Rands head and to situation he saw in Rand's head.
That's the first definition for real.

Yes, I felt that LTT could also do things by himself. We know for a fact, that Rand could have been turned into LTT. So how do you explain that?

How do you explain that Rand felt more whole in TAR?
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality, than it would feel more whole in TAR. We know Birgitte was a reintegrated personality there.

If it was a construct, than it would have nothing to do with the Soul of the Dragon. Only how Rand reacted to the memories of LTT. And he still had the memories in TAR.

The constructs said the voice was constructed and not authentic. With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:13 AM
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I don't get it either. I think she's saying LTT is real, but he also gets Rand's experiences and is changed by them, and Rand also gets Rand's experiences and LTT's and is effected by both of them...

so what exactly is the difference between the two?

They are both personalities composed of Rand's and LTT's memories... I'm so confused here, help me out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality...
I'm sorry, what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.
Yes!

Last edited by Neilbert; 10-28-2009 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:21 AM
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Look Neilbert: see it like this. Lews Therin had a personality in the age of legends. He died, but got put into Rand's head. Because of the taint. I have a nice quote of Rand that says it is because of the taint

So Lews Therin, like the LTT from the Age of Legends, would react authenticly. He would react how he would have reacted in when he was alive. That is being the real LTT.

Ok, so we have the authentic LTT in Rand's head. However, this is a weird situation. Normally the personality of the last age in reintegrated in the soul. Now it's not the case.
You have Rand and LTT in the same head, having the same experiences, so ofcourse they will be mirroring each other. Ofcourse the pattern is trying for a reintegration. So that was also happening.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
You can see right off why Isa might believe that this is proof that Lews Therin is ‘real’. It’s essentially Rand saying what he has believed all along about Lews Therin. What the constructors have been harping on for all these years is that this is only what Rand believes about Lews Therin. It is not the truth. Up until now, it has always been ‘a matter of interpretation’. The constructors interpret a passage one way, and the real’ers interpret it another way.
again: READ THE FACTION:

The faction is called 'LTT is real'. Creed:
We believe that the voice Rand calls LTT is actually the real voice and personality of LTT from LTT's life; Rand didn't create it.

Terez: You have almost said it yourself, but can you admit that you never believed that the voice was an authentic LTT.

That is the main difference, between us.
See factions:

We believe that LTT is a constructed personality in Rand's head. This personality was subconsciously created to keep Rand from "going insane" over the extraneous memories leaking from his soul's former life as LTT.

Now you are saying that the main difference is conscious, being a person. That's not the difference we had.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2009, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
Belazamon: that's the most obvious thing to me.
Unfortunately, that doesn't help me understand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
It's quite simple. Authentic / real is LTT reacting the same way as he did in the Age of Legends (having the same personality) only than inside Rands head and to situation he saw in Rand's head.
That's the first definition for real.
So let me see if I have this. You're saying that LTT's personality in Rand's head is exactly the same as the personality LTT had in his own body, when he was still alive. Correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
Yes, I felt that LTT could also do things by himself. We know for a fact, that Rand could have been turned into LTT. So how do you explain that?
Very simply. If Rand has all of LTT's memories, and something happens that makes him "forget" or ignore all of his Rand memories, then for all intents and purposes, he would then be LTT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
How do you explain that Rand felt more whole in TAR?
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality, than it would feel more whole in TAR. We know Birgitte was a reintegrated personality there.
Seeing as how it didn't "stick" when he returned to the real world, this analogy is faulty. If going into TAR has "reintegrated him," as you said, why would he suddenly be "unintegrated" as soon as he woke up?

The answer, I would guess, is that Heroes only "reintegrate" upon their death and subsequent arrival in TAR. If popping into the Dream World was all it took to fix the problem, Rand would've been fine in the very first book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
If it was a construct, than it would have nothing to do with the Soul of the Dragon.
If it's in Rand's head, then by definition, it does have something to do with the Soul of the Dragon. That's what Rand is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isa
The constructs said the voice was constructed and not authentic. With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.
That is correct.
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  #19  
Old 10-28-2009, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
It's quite simple. Authentic / real is LTT reacting the same way as he did in the Age of Legends (having the same personality) only than inside Rands head and to situation he saw in Rand's head.
That's the first definition for real.
Are you seriously not getting this? You don't know that the LTT that was in Rand's mind for the majority of the series is the same LTT as was in the Age of Legends. How could you possibly know that? Where in the text does it objectively, explicitly say Lews Therin is real and behaves exactly like he would have had he been alive and his personality super imposed into Rand's own mind?

Rand has ALL of LTT's memories. The LTT he formulated in his mind could be exactly the same (authentic, as you so incorrectly put it) as the "real" LTT, as you put it, would be. Just saying "he's authentic" means nothing. You are not arguing anything at all, and keep showing a complete lack of understanding of what you are arguing against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
Yes, I felt that LTT could also do things by himself. We know for a fact, that Rand could have been turned into LTT. So how do you explain that?
That's from the perspective of Moiraine in response to the actions of Lanfear. The real quote is "down the other, she carried you away, and when next we saw you, you called yourself Lews Therin Telamon and were her devoted lover." There are a lot of explanations for this, most of which probably include heavy Compulsion on Lanfear's part. This is in no way, shape or form evidence for LTT being real. Notice she doesn't say "you would be Lews Therin", she says "you [would call] yourself Lews Therin". Huge difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
How do you explain that Rand felt more whole in TAR?
If the voice was a remnant of the past, which was reanimated by the taint and so part of the Dragon's personality, than it would feel more whole in TAR. We know Birgitte was a reintegrated personality there.
Because he had access to all of his past lives' memories there, not just LTT's. Of course he felt more whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
If it was a construct, than it would have nothing to do with the Soul of the Dragon. Only how Rand reacted to the memories of LTT. And he still had the memories in TAR.
Of course he still had the memories in T'A'R. What are you asking here? This post makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
The constructs said the voice was constructed and not authentic. With that they were arguing all the stuff about Lews Therins emotions, being basicily Rands emotions.
Will you stop using the term "authentic" to justify your points here? Please? You obviously don't know what the word means.

Rand's voice is authentic for both sides. Rand has authentic memories of Lews Therin's life.
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2009, 01:45 AM
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Bela: thank you for normally discussing this with me

Quote:
So let me see if I have this. You're saying that LTT's personality in Rand's head is exactly the same as the personality LTT had in his own body, when he was still alive. Correct?
Yes, it started out as the personality of LTT.

I have to make the addition, that the personality could slowly change, because being in Rands head means that they would get the same experience.

Quote:
Very simply. If Rand has all of LTT's memories, and something happens that makes him "forget" or ignore all of his Rand memories, then for all intents and purposes, he would then be LTT.
So for you memories are the same as personality. That's something I don't believe. Especially in the wot world with Mat not getting many different personalities.

Quote:
Seeing as how it didn't "stick" when he returned to the real world, this analogy is faulty. If going into TAR has "reintegrated him," as you said, why would he suddenly be "unintegrated" as soon as he woke up?
Because he entered TAR in the dream. He entered there with his soul or mind or whatever you want to call it.
TAR must have a mechanism to deal with all the heroes of the horn. When they die they come into TAR, but in TAR they suddenly remember all their lives. However, that doesn't cause a conflict.
When Rand woke up, that mechanism didn't affect him anymore. What we saw in TAR is that Rand still had the memories and he felt more stable, but the voice was gone or partly integrated with RAnd.
For me, that means, the voice is part of the personality of LTT.

If it is something that is only created to deal with the memories, why would TAR would have any influence over it? In TAR Rand had still the memories. So he would still have to deal with it.
If it is something artificial, why would it go away? It would have been unique of the heroes.
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