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  #1  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:05 AM
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So I finally read Terez's "huge post that would explain everything" and felt disappointed.

So I started a new thread, sorry Bela.

But here is what boils down as to her "proof" that LTT is a construct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Rand finally admits to himself that he was wrong about Lews Therin being 'real' - he defined 'real' as 'Lews Therin and I are distinct. Two people." But all along, they have been one man.
I'm glad that Rand finally realized that he was the "same man" as LTT. Afterall, he had been talking real versus construct with Min here at theoryland.com. But, Min also thought Gaidal Cain was same man as all his other persons he's ever been before as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter's Heart. Ch 12
Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.
Meaning, every reincarnation is the same man. Rand isn't acknowledging that LTT is a phony and wasn't really there, Rand is acknowleding that LTT is another incarnation of himself. Clearly, those talks with Min helped. And here we all thought she supported the construct theory according to Terez.

/construct
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Last edited by Sodas; 10-29-2009 at 02:21 AM.
  #2  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:08 AM
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Yay, another Lews Therin thread!

What's your point Sodas? You seem to be agreeing with me, but somehow I have a feeling that's not what you were trying to do.

Of course Gaidal Cain is the same man in every life. Every person is the same person in every life. Rand was no exception, even when he believed otherwise.
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:14 AM
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I disagree with your intepretation of that quote. You quoted it out of context.

Rand isn't acknowledging that LTT is a phony and wasn't really there, Rand is acknowledging that LTT is just an incarnation of himself. Meaning, LTT is real.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-29-2009 at 02:22 AM.
  #4  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
I disagree with your intepretation of that quote. You quoted it out of context.
No I didn't. The only reason Rand constructed the voice in the first place was because he couldn't accept that he was Lews Therin, and most of that was because of the Kinslaying, especially the murder of Ilyena. He had to forgive himself for that (or at least, move past it...dunno if he will ever really forgive himself) before he could accept the memories as his own memories. So, my interpretation is more 'in context' than yours.
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
No I didn't. The only reason Rand constructed the voice in the first place was because he couldn't accept that he was Lews Therin, and most of that was because of the Kinslaying, especially the murder of Ilyena. He had to forgive himself for that (or at least, move past it...dunno if he will ever really forgive himself) before he could accept the memories as his own memories. So, my interpretation is more 'in context' than yours.
This sounds like opinion to me. Can we get something to support it?
  #6  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:46 AM
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That isn't the context of Rand's statement. That's an opinion. Not to mention an incorrect interpretation of events.

I'll repeat again since you failed to respond to the point of the post :

Rand isn't acknowledging that LTT is a phony and wasn't really there, Rand is acknowledging that LTT is just an incarnation of himself.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-29-2009 at 02:54 AM.
  #7  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dead
This sounds like opinion to me. Can we get something to support it?
Look around my friend. every other thread on Theoryland is a Lews Therin thread.
  #8  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:51 AM
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There is no proof in those threads. Just opinion.

Min's quote is proof that LTT is an incarnation just as real as Rand.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-29-2009 at 02:54 AM.
  #9  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dead
This sounds like opinion to me. Can we get something to support it?
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?
There is a reason. LTT finally died.

Zing!
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-29-2009 at 03:15 AM.
  #11  
Old 10-29-2009, 02:57 AM
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LMAO!
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2009, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
How about the fact that the reintegration happened at the exact moment that Rand finally found peace about Ilyena, and that there is no other readily apparent reason why the reintegration happened?
This isn't what happened at all Terez. There is a readily apparent reason for the reintegration to happen... its the ability to change in each incarnation.

Take a closer look at the order of events, Terez:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm, Chapter 50 - Veins of Gold

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!
He realizes each incarnation has the ability to love, and make changes... new mistakes, and is not doomed to repeat the previous incarnation's mistakes. This realization about the power of change takes place before, and then causes, the reintegration.

Within the same moment of his reintegration of all of his infinite lives, it suddenly occurs to him that if he can be reborn, so can she. The peace he is granted about Ilyena isn't what caused the reintegration, the realization that he can change each incarnation with the power of love is what caused it. After he makes this realization and starts to reintegrate his memories into himself, he simultaneously realizes that she has the chance to live again as well, and is granted peace by that possibility.

The peace he feels about Ilyena was a result of the reintegration of his lives, not the cause. The cause for the reintegration was the realization that love provides the power to make changes in each incarnation. He isn't doomed to make the same mistakes, he has the ability to make NEW mistakes. That realization lead to the reintegration of all his past lives. As they reintegrate, he realizes the possibility of Ilyena living again and was granted peace.

on a side note, I think this was the moment of Rand's victory over the shadow. He was on the edge of becoming a nihilist like Elan, and on the cusp of doing the Dark One's work in ending the wheel of time. THIS was the last battle. This was the moment in which the Shadow could have had victory, willingly, from the Dragon Reborn. Rand backs away from this and remembers love, peace, joy, and hope. The rest will be the mop up of the Shadow, and the consolidation of Rand's triumph.

as a second side note, I wonder how many memories he will take with him when he leaves Dragonmount. Will it just be LTT as he has had, or will he now have access to all of his infinite incarnation's memories.

btw: i dont like how quoting italicizes everything, making italic's useless within a quote
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2009, 07:16 PM
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I wouldn't say this was the last battle per se...but I see your point. This is where it turns, where it begins, the physicality of it is up next.

Man though him turning dark and everything... you'd think that would have freaked people out more than it did... it was obvious proof of the Shadow winning.
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  #14  
Old 10-29-2009, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu
He realizes each incarnation has the ability to love, and make changes... new mistakes, and is not doomed to repeat the previous incarnation's mistakes.
Indeed! And this is why Rand has never been able to accept Lews Therin's memories before now - he was convinced that he would repeat Lews Therin's mistakes. Hence the litany of dead women, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu
This realization about the power of change takes place before, and then causes, the reintegration.
You haven't explained how this would cause the reintegration, outside the parameters of a psychological problem that has now been resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu
The peace he feels about Ilyena was a result of the reintegration of his lives, not the cause.
You are trying to separate 'love' and 'Ilyena', and with Rand/Lews Therin, that's not really possible. He loves other women now, and he loved other women before, but his love for Ilyena, and the guilt that stemmed from her death, has consumed his mind ever since he started remembering her. He thought about Ilyena before and after the reintegration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu
on a side note, I think this was the moment of Rand's victory over the shadow.
I essentially agree with that. There are more hurdles he has to jump over, but he couldn't have possibly succeeded without this moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu
as a second side note, I wonder how many memories he will take with him when he leaves Dragonmount. Will it just be LTT as he has had, or will he now have access to all of his infinite incarnation's memories.
I don't see any reason to believe that the memories will go away when he leaves there. Maybe he will be like Birgitte, forgetting the older ones because the incarnate brain can only handle so much, though.
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Last edited by Terez; 10-29-2009 at 09:10 PM.
  #15  
Old 10-29-2009, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I don't see any reason to believe that the memories will go away when he leaves there. Maybe he will be like Birgitte, forgetting the older ones because the incarnate brain can only handle so much, though.
I'm not sure I really agree with that, honestly. I personally felt like it was a side-effect of how much saidin he was channeling, while pondering the Pattern and so forth. I would be surprised if those (pre-LTT) memories didn't fade very quickly - though I do think it'll be a fading, and not just a disappearance.
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Old 10-29-2009, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Indeed! And this is why Rand has never been able to accept Lews Therin's memories before now
Totally and utterly false.

Rand had already accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own.

Chapter 49. Just another man
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Jordan
Why can't I be strong enough? He didn't know if the thought was his or if it was Lews Therin's. The two were the same. Why can't I do what I must?
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-29-2009 at 11:23 PM.
  #17  
Old 10-30-2009, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Totally and utterly false.

Rand had already accepted Lews Therin's memories as his own.
Well, I don't really agree with Terez if she's saying the revelation at the end was the Magical Cure Of Everything. But I agree if she's saying "til now" in the sense of this book. I even made a post documenting how his perceptions of LTT changed over the course of this book.
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Old 10-30-2009, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Well, I don't really agree with Terez if she's saying the revelation at the end was the Magical Cure Of Everything. But I agree if she's saying "til now" in the sense of this book. I even made a post documenting how his perceptions of LTT changed over the course of this book.
So, we agree that the context of the same man quote isn't the Magical Cure of Everything. Good.

Then Bela, you must look at the context of when Rand describes himself as the "same man" as LTT. When Rand says he is the "same man" as LTT, he means it in the same way Min would have said Gaidal Cain's was the "same man" as in all his past incarnations. I.E. Rand and LTT are two real but different incarnations of the same man.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-30-2009 at 12:24 AM.
  #19  
Old 10-30-2009, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
Then Bela, you must look at the context of when Rand describes himself as the "same man" as LTT. When Rand says he is the "same man" as LTT, he means it in the same way Min would have said Gaidal Cain's was the "same man" as in all his past incarnations. I.E. Rand and LTT are two real but different incarnations of the same man.
Problem is... I'm not the one who would argue against that point. I think you're looking to argue with Terez.

I'm a strict Constructionist in the sense that I think the voice of LTT was constructed by Rand's subconscious. Rand is the same man as LTT in that they share a soul, and therefore (somehow) memories.
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Old 10-30-2009, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bela
I'm a strict Constructionist in the sense that I think the voice of LTT was constructed by Rand's subconscious. Rand is the same man as LTT in that they share a soul, and therefore (somehow) memories.
Bela, I'd like to believe you but I just don't see it.

If you are saying LTT is authetic enough to have mind of it's own, how does Rand overcome that by any concious act? I don't forget how he nearly overtook Rand in tFoH and other scenes. So I can't fathom how Rand's acceptance of forgiveness for killing Ilyena would kill him.

The scene clearly implies that LTT forgives himself, and with it, stops haunting Rand's body.
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Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Last edited by Sodas; 10-30-2009 at 02:07 AM.
 

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