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  #1  
Old 11-03-2009, 12:57 AM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Default The Aviendha killed Asmo faction.

Tam, I think you should change your faction creed. You said "her motive is unknown." I can tell you Aviendha's motive right now.

Aviendha knew Jasin Natael was Asmodean.

How did she know this?

The same way Moiraine knew it. Moiraine saw who Asmodean was by entering the ring ter'angreal. Aviendha went through the same ter'angreal. Moiraine learned of Asmodean's identity in one of the possible futures she saw. Since Aviendha and Moiraine traveled together, it's only logical that Aviendha would see many of the same futures that Moiraine saw.

An Aiel will kill a "Shadowsouled" at the earliest opportunity.

Why didn't she kill him right away?

Because, she almost certainly saw that without a trainer, Rand would lose to Rahvin or the next forsaken to come along.
  #2  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:09 AM
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Moiraine knew who he was by eavesdropping. She also made it clear that she knew nothing else of the future, and Aviendha says you only remember certain things, and most of the rest of it goes into instinct. If Aviendha learned of it, she learned of it from Moiraine, or from eavesdropping herself, or from the Wise Ones eavesdropping, or from their Dreams.

I think that Tam figures Aviendha knew who Asmodean was, or she wouldn't have killed him. I've asked him myself why he claims her motive is unknown, and he says that her motive can be argued for, but it's not as concrete as her OPPORTUNITY, which, along with TIMING, was the detail RJ told us to focus on.
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  #3  
Old 11-03-2009, 02:05 AM
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So we know Aviendha killed Asmodean because she saw who he was in the rings. And we know she saw who he was because she killed him. Been through that a few times and now I'm dizzy.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:33 AM
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That's the thing with rings: they provide a perfect opportunity for applying circular reasoning.

Jokeslayer, once you've figured it out a bit better, you will be ready for the next exercise: try to imagine how convoluted the argument would have been if Aviendha had passed through a Möbius Strip (like Egwene's dream ter'angreal) instead.
  #5  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:03 AM
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You are such a dork Gonzo. Finish the book already!
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
That's the thing with rings: they provide a perfect opportunity for applying circular reasoning.

Jokeslayer, once you've figured it out a bit better, you will be ready for the next exercise: try to imagine how convoluted the argument would have been if Aviendha had passed through a Möbius Strip (like Egwene's dream ter'angreal) instead.
Your argument is ludicrously one-sided
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Old 11-03-2009, 04:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
You are such a dork Gonzo. Finish the book already!
I have finished it.

Jokeslayer, I have to admit that you have a point. I'm not sure what shape that point has, though.
  #8  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
I have finished it.
Bout damn time.
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2009, 07:40 AM
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LOL. I finished it on Friday and haven't posted about it once becasue I'm still sifting through all the back-threads on the tGS forum. FIVE pages? I'm not even halfway up page 5 yet and I'm skimming!
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  #10  
Old 11-03-2009, 08:18 AM
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That's what you get for waiting so long to read it!
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  #11  
Old 11-03-2009, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara
LOL. I finished it on Friday and haven't posted about it once becasue I'm still sifting through all the back-threads on the tGS forum. FIVE pages? I'm not even halfway up page 5 yet and I'm skimming!
Well, four of those pages are all about
Spoiler:
Lews Therin
, and two thirds of the threads on the fifth page are composed of people saying "squee!" and other similarly excited things, so it really shouldn't you take that long to catch up.

EDIT: non-spoiler board
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  #12  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:21 PM
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You can also skip as irrelevant any of my postings. Im just happy that I did so.
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  #13  
Old 11-03-2009, 01:36 PM
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T! It came out on Tuesday and I finished on the Friday! Not speedreading to be sure, but man!
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2009, 08:14 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Default Quick Question Terez.

OKay, the Rings have to let you see the future. It's gotta be that way. Moiraine's knowledge in both the letter she gave to Rand and the letter she gave to Thom is way too specific to be just instinct.

She knew that there were three ways the sitch on the docs could play out. Lanfear takes Rand, Lanfear kills Rand, or Moiraine herself pulls a self-sacrifice.

She knew that only three people could rescue her from the Tower of Ghenjei: one was Mat, one was Thom and the other was a man she hadn't met yet. (Noal, it seems). So... That's just way too specific for me to believe she doesn't retain some knowledge of what she saw.

Now, Moiraine could have learned that Natael was Asmodean via eavesdropping, but I honestly don't recall seeing her do this. Now, forgive me, it's been eleven years since I've read fires of heaven. Wanna link me to the part where she drops on the eaves? I was pretty sure that Moiraine would have learned Natael's identity via the rings.

That said, if Moiraine learned it that way, Aviendha almost certainly did as well.

If I'm wrong, and Moiraine learned of it by other rings, then Aviendha doesn't have a discernible motive (but still remains my best pick).
  #15  
Old 11-03-2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker
That said, if Moiraine learned it that way, Aviendha almost certainly did as well.
I assume there's more to this than "because I said so"?
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker
OKay, the Rings have to let you see the future. It's gotta be that way. Moiraine's knowledge in both the letter she gave to Rand and the letter she gave to Thom is way too specific to be just instinct.
I think the problem, Seeker, is that you really can't assume that Moiraine remembers anything she didn't specifically say she remembers. That's not how the rings work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tSR ch.23
"In Rhuidean," Amys said, "you will find three rings, arranged so." She drew three lines in the air, joining together in the middle. "Step through any one. You will see your future laid before you, again and again, in variation. They will not guide you wholly, as is best, for they will fade together as do stories heard long ago, yet you will remember enough to know some things that must be, for you, despised as they may be, and some that must not, cherished hopes that they are..."

..."It is the mercy of the rings that the memories fade," Amys said. "A woman knows some things – a few – that will happen; others she will not recognize until the decision is upon her, if then. Life is uncertainty and struggle, choice and change; one who knew how her life was woven into the Pattern as well as she knew how a thread was laid into a carpet would have the life of an animal. If she did not go mad. Humankind is made for uncertainty, struggle, choice and change."
Therefore, we can guess that maybe the rings gave her the info about Natael, but as she never actually said it, it'll never be any stronger than a guess.
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker
OKay, the Rings have to let you see the future. It's gotta be that way. Moiraine's knowledge in both the letter she gave to Rand and the letter she gave to Thom is way too specific to be just instinct.
Yes. We know FOR A FACT that Moiraine was eavesdropping on Rand. This is quite obviously how she knew about it. We also know that she taught the eavesdropping weave to the Wise Ones, and that they often eavesdropped on him together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Shadow Rising CHAPTER: 36 – Misdirections

Couladin came trotting out from the Shaido. Alone. Perhaps he meant to do as Rhuarc and Heim had intended, but Mat, suspected the man was pointing out that he went alone where Rand needed, a hundred guards. At first it seemed Moiraine was coming, too, but words passed between the Wise Ones and her, and they all stayed where they were. Watching, though. The Aes Sedai dismounted, playing with something small that sparkled, and Egwene and the Wise Ones clustered around her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 15 - What Can Be Learned in Dreams

Kneeling beside the tent flap, she peered in. Moiraine sat surrounded by the glow of saidar, the small blue stone that usually hung on her forehead dangling from her fingers in front of her face. It shone, adding a bit to the light of a single lamp. The firepit held only ashes; even the smell was gone.

"May I come in?"

She had to repeat herself before Moiraine answered. "Of course." The light of saidar faded away, and the Aes Sedai began fastening the fine golden chain back into her hair.

"You were eavesdropping on Rand?" Egwene settled herself beside the other woman. It was as cold in the tent as it was outside. She channeled flames atop the ashes in the firepit and tied the flow. "You said you would not do it again."

"I said that since the Wise Ones could watch his dreams, we should allow him some privacy. They have not asked again since he shut them out, and I have not offered. Remember that they have their own goals, which may not be those of the Tower."
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jokeslayer (In reference to Gonzo and Mobius Strip)
Your argument is ludicrously one-sided
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoryland
YOU CANNOT GIVE REPUTATION TO THE SAME POST TWICE
Dammit...
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  #19  
Old 11-04-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matoyak
Dammit...
Got 'im for you. Missed it the first time.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Got 'im for you. Missed it the first time.
Heh, thanks, but I gave him rep once...I was trying to rep him twice for the same post. hehehe.
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