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  #1  
Old 11-06-2009, 08:59 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Default The meaning of "never" (warning: LTT inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS, Chapter 49, Just Another Man
Why have we come here?Rand thought.
Because, Rand replied. Because we made this. This is where we died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS, Chapter 50, Veins of Gold
And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.
Now, if this is true, if Rand really is the one who died there, then that means that the voice that Rand heard really had been the voice of LTT.

If they had been two different men, then he isn't healed after all, and this chapter is rather pointless. Not entirely so, since the voice could return (as it did after Cadsuane first chased it away), but that would be quite hard to match with the opening his eyes prophecy which he now supposedly fulfilled.

So this passage shows that Rand and LTT really were two personalities generated at different times by the same soul, and now they've been integrated into one single man.
  #2  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:25 AM
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misunderstood your post....carry on!
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Now, if this is true, if Rand really is the one who died there, then that means that the voice that Rand heard really had been the voice of LTT.
I don't see how you get that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
So this passage shows that Rand and LTT really were two personalities generated at different times by the same soul, and now they've been integrated into one single man.
Those two quotes you give. Let us call it before and after:

Before (separate): This is where "we" died. Whether you are real or construct, we = Rand and Voice.

After (integrated): "they were not two men, and never had been"

It doesn't matter whether you believe LTT is the "real" personality from the AoL, or a fabricated personality by Rand. This passage show Rand thinking there is a voice, to knowing there isn't one.

Rand never died in this chapter. At the end of this chapter you have Rand + memories from the AoL.

I am on the construct side, but I don't see this passage arguing one side or the other. All this passage says is: Going forward, there is no Real vs Construct debate. The conflict no longer exists. There is only Rand.
  #4  
Old 11-06-2009, 03:47 PM
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It is not "there is only Rand". It is "there is only the Dragon". Whether he grew up as Lews Therin or as Rand does not matter, it is the same man.
That is what Lanfear had been telling him all along, and she was right.
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:54 PM
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I wonder if this has anything to do with the "to live you must die." answer he got from the doorway people. (can't remember how to spell name) I suppose in a way this could be interpreted as rand dying (metaphorically) and lews therin, the end result , there is no rand there is no lews therin there is only the dragon soul. The only way rand could ever succede is by being the dragon, totally accepting every faucet of what that is. He can't win the last battle by being rand althor or LTT.
  #6  
Old 11-06-2009, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
It is not "there is only Rand". It is "there is only the Dragon". Whether he grew up as Lews Therin or as Rand does not matter, it is the same man.
That is what Lanfear had been telling him all along, and she was right.
Well, the way I see it, is whether you follow the "real" or "construct" view, as of the end of this book, Rand is more like Birgitte. And since "Rand" is the most recent incarnation, that will be the most heavily weighted, in whatever personality he now has.

We will need to RAFO.
  #7  
Old 11-06-2009, 04:17 PM
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Oh yes, he will definitely be mostly Rand from now on.

And the "to live, you must die" wasn't metaphorical at all for Rand during his mountaintop retreat. It was actually the core of his revelation: that because of death, people can be reborn again and thus love again.
  #8  
Old 11-06-2009, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
And the "to live, you must die" wasn't metaphorical at all for Rand during his mountaintop retreat. It was actually the core of his revelation: that because of death, people can be reborn again and thus love again.
Heh. Alternately, maybe the 'Finn were being completely metaphorical. If you stop to think about it, Rand couldn't have been born until Lews had died.
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  #9  
Old 11-06-2009, 09:20 PM
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Default Lol

I love that interpretation. To live again...duh, you must die.
  #10  
Old 11-06-2009, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
I love that interpretation. To live again...duh, you must die.
That even works with Mat's answer! He will one day die, and eventually his soul will live again - and way down the road, he'll live once more a part of what was (in the last Turning).
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  #11  
Old 11-06-2009, 09:51 PM
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Was Alivia hiding in the lava pit?
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  #12  
Old 11-06-2009, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Was Alivia hiding in the lava pit?
Well, Rand has to die someday. Nothing says Alivia will help him die so he can live.

Nice visual, though,

"Light, hurry up Rand al'Thor. Bloody hot down here, you know?"
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2009, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
That even works with Mat's answer! He will one day die, and eventually his soul will live again - and way down the road, he'll live once more a part of what was (in the last Turning).
Perhaps that's what they tell everyone "you must go to Rhuidean". Ehr, I mean, "to live, you must die".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Was Alivia hiding in the lava pit?
It doesn't work that way. The dieing is serial, the living may happen in parallel.

Rand figured out that he had actually died (as LTT) and then been reborn, and drew the obvious conclusion from that that others who have died will also be reborn. This set him at ease in regards to all the deaths he held himself responsible for.
But the important issue for us, in regards to the LTT debate, is that Rand now accepts that he actually is LTT, and always was. Thus, the voice of LTT that he had been hearing was not constructed by his subconscious, but was indeed the actual voice of LTT which hadn't been dissolved (or whatever happens) into his soul upon death, nor had it been integrated with his new incarnation. That last has now happened.
  #14  
Old 11-07-2009, 04:45 AM
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That's just a convoluted and flawed way of saying that the 'voice' of Lews Therin was actually himself all along, you know.

The point of the construct theory has always been that. Rand is Lews Therin. The 'voice' was just his way of pretending he was not.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2009, 05:26 AM
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The construct theory says that the voice was constructed after Rand learned how to channel. The real idea is that the voice was there all along (though dormant), and woke up after Rand learned to channel.
Thus, in one the voice was made during Rand's life, in the other they were always one man (yet separate personalities for a while).
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
The construct theory says that the voice was constructed after Rand learned how to channel. The real idea is that the voice was there all along (though dormant)
That is obviously untrue. The memories were always there, though dormant, or inaccessible, but the 'voice' clearly was not. Well, it was, but it was just Rand's inner voice (you can see the voice talking to Rand in the bits where he is in denial about Tam not being his father, for instance). Rand didn't start calling that 'Lews Therin' until after he started remembering Lews Therin's life.
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
That is obviously untrue.
I do wish you'd stop using the word "obvious" quite so much...
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:02 PM
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At some point in TGS Rand though that he had been able to deal with the AS beating him by pouring the pain into LTT as he was so agonised already a bit more would barely be noticed.

Likewise Rand though that LTT was mad. Could he have been subconsciously pouring all the growing fear, paranoia, desire to kill everything and the desire to be rid of his burden (to die) into LTT or that part of his own mind that represented LTT. The more of his growing fealings that he put into that part of his mind the stronger that part became until it nearly dominated him.
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:27 PM
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No. What happened was Rand himself, turned so hard because of Semirhage that he nearly went insane. He became LTT, the mad kinslayer one. LTT meanwhile, became more sane.
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Old 11-07-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodas
No. What happened was Rand himself, turned so hard because of Semirhage that he nearly went insane.
The fact that you seem to think Rand hasn't been insane for a long time is yet another huge rift between us.

Maybe we should start making a list of these.
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