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  #1  
Old 11-06-2009, 06:21 PM
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Default Amyrlin’s next moves

I find it sort of strange not to have seen a lot of chatter dedicated to theories on Egwene’s next actions. How the White Tower interacts with Rand will, of course, be critical to the plot of the final two books. I’ve seen some talk of Egwene and the White Tower on some threads but haven’t seen them all so I apologize if this ends up being a duplicate thread. From what I’ve seen there is some difference of opinion, so we will see if this sparks any debate...

My thoughts:
-Egwene will want to let the entire Randland know that the White Tower is whole once more. This may or may not be seen as a good thing among nobles but should spark some hope in commoners.Speading the word should also be made easier by Travelling
-Egwene will force contact with Rand and will likely come out on top now that he seems to dropped some of his walls (TGS "Veins of Gold") and according to prophesy (something to the extent of "He will feel the Amyrlin’s anger"-> made by Elaida if im not mistaken)

-Egwene makes reference to her ideas of dealing with Rand in a hypothetical situation proposed by three white sisters in TGS: In the White Tower (P.251-254)
Quote:
"And so my next step would be to send sisters to him to offer guidance."
"And if he rejected them?"
"Then I'd send spies...and watch to see if he has changed from the man I once knew"
"Rand al'Thor is like a river...calm and placid when not agitated, but a furious and deadly current when squeezed too tightly.... Waiting to discover a man's temperament is not foolish, nor is it a sign of weakness. Acting without information is lunacy."
"If I were to deal with him, I would send a delegation to honour him...A group of three Aes Sedia, led by a Grey, accompanied by a Green and a Blue"
"Rand al'Thor is a good man, in his heart, but he needs guidance. These days are when we should have been at our most subtle."
-I believe that Egwene, as Amyrlin, will send this embassy of three sisters to Rand. However, she will do this more because it is expected rather than because it will be useful (lets be honest...Rand "honoured" by three sisters?->not a chance, although its better than 13). Where Egwene really has the advantage is the ability to communicate with those who are already in close proximity to Rand. This would be Wise Ones and Nynaeve (though her dreams and Dream World if she still has the ring).
Not only would Egwene be able to gain access to valuable knowledge on Rand (will that knowledge be pre-laughter or after laughter?->would make a huge difference on her response) but also be able to subtly direct Rand the way she wants. The Wise Ones respect Egwene and will do some favors and Nynaeve seemed scared to obedience last time Egwene put on the complete Amyrlin image in TAR. In all, Egwene will put more confidence into those she trusts completely and not her Aes Sedia.

-Egwene’s character has changed a fair amount throughout the series. She always adapts her attitude toward what is most needed. Examples: meek as a novice -> early on as compared to a demoted novice, and obedient (but scheming) apprentice with the wise-ones, intelligent and political as rebel Amyrlin, arrogant and defiant as prisoner novice. What is required of her now is for her to lose some of her arrogance and become the symbol of wisdom. She will do what is required, and we will likely see another minor personality shift in her.

-My final thought is that if any of this happens, it will be from a POV other than that of the White Tower. Most likely through the Wise Ones. Egwene’s plot has been mostly used up, at least for the Towers of Midnight.


-Just to throw it out there: I think Cadsuane would want to use someone who (her equal) Sorilea gives very high praise to, AND is the new Amyrlin of the whole White Tower. I seem to remember Amys distinguishing Egwene in TGS as still trustworthy. With traveling available or Nynaeve’s dream ter’angreal (if she still has it), it is possible that Cadsuane may want to meet with Egwene or vice versa if Egwene learns that that Cadsuane is the new primary advisor (the Wise Ones probably wont mention the “if Rand sees her face problem”). I’d love to see that confrontation. Maybe they can deflate each other a bit, although Cadsuane has already been trampled by Tam.
  #2  
Old 11-06-2009, 06:29 PM
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There are a couple of other possibilities beyond making contact with Rand (which we know will happen):

1. She'll try to recover captured Aes Sedai from the Seanchan.
2. She'll try to recover missing Aes Sedai from the Black Tower (though she might try to do this through Rand).

In any case, she still has to meet up with that Seanchan woman. She has a dream where she's confronting Rand, and one of the women with her is a Seanchan, in addition to the one where the Seanchan woman with a sword saves her from something.
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
In any case, she still has to meet up with that Seanchan woman. She has a dream where she's confronting Rand, and one of the women with her is a Seanchan, in addition to the one where the Seanchan woman with a sword saves her from something.
The Seanchan woman could be any of the sul'dam or possible some of the assassins that possibly get captured and healed. Although I still hold to my theory that the Seanchan woman saving Egwene is the rebirth of Amaresu and that it takes place at some point after the series, it makes far more sense for it in fact to mirror Egwene's struggle to reunite the Tower (the Mountain) and was aided in doing so by the Seanchan woman with the sword (the attack).
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2009, 08:38 PM
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Maybe Egwene's delegation inquiring about the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower that has not returned will set in moition operation Black Tower clean up.

Can Egwene's embassy really arrive pre-laughter? We followed Rand closely with no indication of an embassy.

I don't see Egwene trying to recover Aes Sedai from the Black Tower directly, she knows how Elaida fared when taking initiatives towards the Black Tower.

Will the Amyrlin be obligated to try to rescue Aes Sedai from the Seanchan? I think the Hall will have to have a sitting regarding this. Will Egwene argue vehemently for rescue or will she argue that they are lost now? What a headache for Rand if Egwene lanches an attack against the Seanchan.
Though I guess he can plead that they are not under his control.

Regarding the Wise Ones, they will not give away much to Egwene. They will only speak if it serves the Aiel or the Car'a'carn. Letting Egwene know some things about Rand might serve that. We saw how restrictive the Wise Ones were with Egwene last time they met in TAR (with Egwene as Amyrlin), they told her almost nothing I believe.

It will be interesting to follow Cadsuane's reaction to the embassy. I doubt she will want to give up anything that loses her influence over Rand. She thinks she knows best how to save the world by guiding the Dragon Reborn. She'll find some way out of obeying the Amyrlin's orders that the embassy delivers.
In essence, she'll have given up on guiding Rand as an advisor if she talks much with the embassy I think.
Rand might forbid her to speak.

Where will Nynaeve's loyalty lie? Will she think that Egwene has gone too far at some point?

I think this all will eventually end up in a meeting between Rand and Egwene with their entorages in a neutral place, or in the Stone. Or will Rand be cocky enough to enter the Tower?
Egwene will insist that Rand needs guidance and that the Tower is very important and that the Tower needs to call the shots in Tarmon Gaidon, certainly they wont take orders on where and how to fight from the Dragon Reborn.
Rand will try to make her see that they need to get themselves in line for a unified army of the Light, e.g. take his orders when the time comes.
Egwene will grow frustrated with Rand and tell him to stop being such a wool head. Around this time I think it will come up what it is to be the Dragon Reborn, that it involves having all the memories that the Dragon had. But I think that the Tower representatives and Egwene still wont be sufficiently awed to think Rand qualified to make decisions for them.


Another thing I think that Egwene should do is organising the Aes Sedai for battle. That is divided them into battle formations, similar to companies, squads, etc. And to give out ranks other than Sitter and Ajah head, and strength in the power. Ranks similar to those of an army.
A squad might consist as follows:

Squad leader: Someone selected by the Hall that is judged competent and fearless, of any Ajah. Commands the squad regardless of individual's strength.
Squad Healer: A Yellow
First male channeler expert: A Red
Second male channeler expert: A Red
Battle expert, Warder source: A Green
Battle expert, Warder source: A Green
Aes Sedai: Random of Ajah that is left
Aes Sedai: Random of Ajah that is left
Aes Sedai: Random of Ajah that is left

This might be an allround squad. Squads may of course look differently if the enemy is non-channeler, female-channeler, or male-channeler. It is also important that the squads, however they are chosen, be of all of the Ajahs. I also think this organisation should be used to unite and heal the Tower. Therefore all squads must eat and sleep together (heh), as a part of the healing process across the Ajahs.

Besides organising they should also train for battle. I want Egwene to set up a training ground somewhere outside the island on field. And that Every Aes Sedai is ordered to attend there for two hours every other day, or something, to blow things up, practice fireballs and lightning and whatever battle weaves that are not suited to do inside the Tower or on Tower grounds.

All Accepted should be taking the test for Aes Sedai as soon as possible. All training that is not related to battle (i.e. studying past Amyrlins, history etc.) should be dropped for Novices and Accepted. All training should focus on the Power and how to kill with it. All Accepted and Novices should be forced, like at the Black Tower.
Novices and Accepted should be assigned to Aes Sedai or certain squads of Aes Sedai to be power sources for circles led by Aes Sedai.

So there are quite a lot of decrees and decisions in the Hall that I would LIKE for Egwene to do.

Also I think that she should delegate the reswearing of Oaths for new sisters that arrive to the Tower to the Red Ajah in an effort to steer them towards another purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
The Seanchan woman could be any of the sul'dam or possible some of the assassins that possibly get captured and healed. Although I still hold to my theory that the Seanchan woman saving Egwene is the rebirth of Amaresu and that it takes place at some point after the series, it makes far more sense for it in fact to mirror Egwene's struggle to reunite the Tower (the Mountain) and was aided in doing so by the Seanchan woman with the sword (the attack).
I think that interpretation is a good one. One could see the direct change of support for Egwene with Adelorna. Would Egwene been forced to attack the Tower if not for Adelorna?
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2009, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Powerslave
I think that interpretation is a good one. One could see the direct change of support for Egwene with Adelorna. Would Egwene been forced to attack the Tower if not for Adelorna?
And she saved her from an a'dam although I believe she was having an impact before that happened.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2009, 04:21 AM
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Now that Rand has LTT's memories, he actually is a full Aes Sedai. Egwene can't deny that without denying that he is the DR, and yet she can't claim authority over a male AS from the AOL either. So she is in for a bit of a problem there, it would seem.
Won't stop her from trying to bully Rand, of course.

As for the Seanchan woman who saves Egwene:
I think that Mesaana is still in the Tower. At some point, she will capture Egwene, and be on the verge of killing her. Then a female assassin stabs her in the back, and yet another Forsaken dies.
  #7  
Old 11-07-2009, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
As for the Seanchan woman who saves Egwene:
I think that Mesaana is still in the Tower. At some point, she will capture Egwene, and be on the verge of killing her. Then a female assassin stabs her in the back, and yet another Forsaken dies.
Yeah, Mesaana is a good bet for Egwene's next date with the chopping block. But she still has to be saved by a Seanchan woman with a sword, and also by someone who is running (which everyone thinks will be Gawyn - the viewings/dreams that involve him for certain don't seem to have played out yet).

I imagine that Gawyn's crucial moment will have something to do with Rand. It pretty much has to, as that's Gawyn's only discernible fault. Maybe Rand can help Egwene, but Gawyn will have to ask him? But Gawyn would have to still be ignorant of Morgase, and Rand as well. Perhaps the Tower confrontation will happen before the Caemlyn reunion?
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Old 11-07-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Yeah, Mesaana is a good bet for Egwene's next date with the chopping block. But she still has to be saved by a Seanchan woman with a sword, and also by someone who is running (which everyone thinks will be Gawyn - the viewings/dreams that involve him for certain don't seem to have played out yet).
Well, it's been mentioned that the "Seanchan woman with a sword" may have been a metaphor for the attack, so we might be done with that one.
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Well, it's been mentioned that the "Seanchan woman with a sword" may have been a metaphor for the attack, so we might be done with that one.
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.
Well, its debatable. It could be either.
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.
That's mostly why I brought it up again, on the off-chance that she was trying.
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Old 11-07-2009, 12:58 PM
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Egwene will probably try to establish some sort of contact with Rand now that the WT is united. She will also need to get the word out to the 1/3 Aes Sedai who took no side and test them for being Black Ajah. She may also have a problem of the four surviving Seanchan supercommando's who could well have survived the attack who will continue on their mission to kill as many AS as they can before their ter'angreal rings kill them.
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Old 11-07-2009, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
yeah, I mentioned that idea up in the 3rd post in the thread, but I think Terez is just ignoring the concept.
No - there are other dreams that tie Egwene to a Seanchan woman. I've pointed that out before, also, but I think you are ignoring it.
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Old 11-07-2009, 05:53 PM
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I think interpreting the "woman with a sword" dream as referring to the Seanchan attack would have a lot more merit if the attack had been orchestrated by a woman general instead of Yulan. Using the commander as metonym for the entire strike force makes sense. Using some random soldier? Less so. As for the dream of Gawyn running to save her, are we sure that didn't refer to his organizing a "rescue party?" Egwene was furious about it, but she didn't know that the rebel Black Ajah had been ordered to depose her and she repeatedly ignored Siuan's warnings that the rebel camp was starting to fracture without her. There's no telling what might have happened if she hadn't shown up when she did with Verin's list and nipped Sheriam's plans in the bud.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless
As for the dream of Gawyn running to save her
The dream is of someone running to save her, not Gawyn. Gawyn is just a popular theory as to who that someone is. Here's the dream:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop. If not... In that corner of her mind, she felt a chill.
I suggested in another thread that this might have referred to Silviana, but the 'running' bit seems to disqualify that.

Here's the other dream of a Seanchan woman with Egwene:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 48 - Following the Craft

Tel'aran'rhiod still showed her little of immediate use. Sometimes there had been glimpses of Rand, or Mat, or Perrin, and more in her own dreams without the ter'angreal, but nothing of which she could make any sense. The Seanchan, who she refused to think about. Nightmares of a Whitecloak putting Master Luhhan in the middle of a huge, toothed trap for bait. Why should Perrin have a falcon on his shoulder, and what was important about him choosing between that axe he wore now and a blacksmith's hammer? What did it mean that Mat was dicing with the Dark One, and why did he keep shouting, "I am coming!" and why did she think in the dream that he was shouting at her? And Rand. He had been sneaking through utter darkness toward Callandor, while all around him six men and five women walked, some hunting him and some ignoring him, some trying to guide him toward the shining crystal sword and some trying to stop him from reaching it, appearing not to know where he was, or only to see him in flashes. One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste. She thought she knew him. Ba'alzamon. But who were the others? Rand in that dry, dusty chamber again, with those small creatures settling into his skin. Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan. It was all too confusing. She had to stop thinking about Rand and the others and put her mind to what was right ahead of her. What is the Black Ajah up to? Why don't I dream something about them? Light, why can't I learn to make it do what I want?
And here's the other:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!
If not for the other dream, then the 'metaphor' interpretation might make more sense.
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Old 11-07-2009, 06:15 PM
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My bad... I always get the running dream mixed up with the Gawyn at the crossroads dream.
  #17  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:13 PM
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so any dream that Egwene has about any seanchan woman automatically mean it's gotta be the same one? That's weak Terez, very weak. Now if in the first one, the one with Rand had a wavering face, then yes, I'd say that there's a good chance of a relationship.

Just going on the notion that both of them happen to be Seanchan though is tenuous at best. The interpretation of the mountain climbing dream fits very well to Egwene's quest to reunite the Tower. The other is just that there's some Seanchan woman there and there's nothing to say that they're connected other then they're from the same place. There's gotta be hundreds of thousands of Seanchan women, and little chance that these two are connected.

So, yeah, I'm not ignoring the two dreams, just saying that there's about a one in a hundred thousand chance that they're connected.
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
so any dream that Egwene has about any seanchan woman automatically mean it's gotta be the same one?
That's not what I said. But it makes a great deal of sense for it to be the same one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Just going on the notion that both of them happen to be Seanchan though is tenuous at best.
Your idea of the woman being metaphorical is even more tenuous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
So, yeah, I'm not ignoring the two dreams, just saying that there's about a one in a hundred thousand chance that they're connected.
94% of statistics are made up on the spot.
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:45 PM
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no, but it's what you're implying. Egwene has a bunch of dreams, two of which feature Seanchan women, so they have to be the same one?

It's not more tenuous because the events of the dream can be rather nicely interpreted to fit the events of the attack and Egwene's quest to reunite the Tower. Egwene was struggling along a narrow, hazardous path, she had slipped (Elaida's accusation of her being a Dark Friend) and was in danger of falling, until the Seanchan attack occured, in which she was able to rally the novices, gather up some Accepted and Aes Sedai, save the Head of the Green from an a'dam which in turn she used to support Egwene becoming Amyrlin of the reunited Tower after said attack captured Elaida.

The dream she had of the shifty faced woman fits rather nicely with the events that happened, and if the woman of the other dream had any more characterics shared with the mountain woman, I'd say there might be some ground to stand on.

As it is, there's nothing to suggest a link other then a shared nation of birth and a gender.

As for the last, no, it wasn't made up on the spot, it was made up about 30 seconds before the spot, and isn't a statistic, more like some odds, and one in a hundred thousand is being generous, it's probably much less likely than that.
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  #20  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
no, but it's what you're implying.
No it isn't. I am implying that it is likely the same one, not that it is 'automatically' the same one.

Also, to steal Bela's sig quote.....
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