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Old 11-08-2009, 12:13 AM
Isabel Isabel is offline
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Default My slayer killed asmo theory

Hey all,
I saw that Terez believed you couldn't conclude Slayer was an assasin for the DO. That's why i wanna post my very old Slayer killed asmo theory.

I haven't reread it, so my apolgies for any errors or things changed since than.
Ah, i see I wrote Lanfear ordered it I have to admit i am not completely sure anymore, but oh well

===
In this theory I will proof that with only using quotes from the first five books we can figure out who killed Asmodean. I will base most of my theory of quotes out of the first five books.

At first I am going to proof that at the end of TSR we could know that Slayer was an assasin of the Dark One who could pop in out and of TAR and kill people. After that I am going to proof that he would have motivation to kill Asmodean and that it is possible for a non channeler to kill a channeler and that he could have hidden the body.
After that I will go through the additional proof in all the other books. Including the book that is said that makes is obvious.

Part 1: Ability
.
1.1 Murder of Amico and Joiya
We find out first in TSR that the Shadow has more means that Gray Men to kill people. We have a secret assasin who can kill people in a closest room
The first clue was in TSR when Amico and Joiya were killed. As I will show you Joiya and Amico were being held in cells with 2 outside their cells and twenty men in the guardroom.

Quote:
“The prisoners are to talk to no one except myself, not even to each other. Twenty men in the guardroom and two outside each cell at all time, four if a cell door has to be opened for any reason. I myself will watch their food prepared and take it to them. All as you have commanded, my Lady”.
(TSR, Doorways, page 89)
After the Trolloc attack Joiya and Amico were killed. But no guard saw anything. They didn’t even see the trollocs.

Quote:
“Joiya and Amico are dead,” she announced. “Was that the reason for the attack, then?”Nynaeve said. “All that to kill them? Or perhaps to kill them if they could not be freed. I’ve been sure Joiya was so confident because she expected rescue. She must have been lying after all. I never trusted her repentance.”
“Not the main purpose, perhaps, “ Moiraine replied. “The captain very wisely kept his men to their posts in the dungeon during the attack. They never saw a single Trolloc or Myrddraal. But they found the pair dead, after. Each with her throat rather messily cut. After her tongue had been nailed to her cell door. “
(TSR, Moiraine, Tanchico or the Tower, page 157)
Joiya and Amico were killed inside a room with a closed door. No guard saw anything and they would have noticed opening the door. And they didn’t see anything and they weren’t killed.

Quote:
“How.... How was it done? Gray men?” (Egwene) “I doubt even Gray Men could have managed that,” Moriane said dryly. “ The Shadow has resources beyong what we know, it seems.”
(TSR, Tanchico or the Tower, page 157)

At this point we know that the Shadow has some sort of assasin or someone with special abilities that can come into a closed room without anyone noticing who stands outside.

1.2 Assasin

Than in TSR we discover Slayer and that he is an assasin for the Dark One.

Fain says the following things:

Quote:
"You saw the Gray Men."
Bornhald hesitated. Fifty of the Children around him, in the middle of Watch Hill, and
no one had noticed the pair with their daggers. He had looked right at them and
not seen. Until Ordeith killed the pair.
..
You believe they were after you?
"Oh, yes, my Lord Bornhald. After me. Whatever it takes to stop me. The Shadow
itself wants to stop me."
(TSR, Fain to bornhald, Assurances, page 355)
Quote:
Everything had been ticking along like a fine clock, even with Bornhald impeding,
until this new one appeared with his Gray Men. Ordeith scrubbed bony fingers
through greasy hair. Why could not his dreams at least be his own?
He was a puppet no longer, danced about by Myrdraal and Forsaken, by the Dark One himself.
(TSR, Fain, Assurances, page 356)
So someone from the Shadow is trying to kill Fain. First with Gray Men and the Trollocs.
We than find out it’s Slayer / Lord Luc.

Quote:
"If you knew how many of the Shadowwrought died trying to get out of the Ways there, it would lift your heart.
Machin Shin feasted at that gate, Goldeneyes. But not a good enough trick. You saw; the gate is open now.
...
It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died. Slayer's voice became angry. "The Shadow consumer me if that man does not have more luck than the White
Tower." Abruptly he chuckled. "But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out.
(TSR, Slayer to Perrin, A missing leaf, page 477)
Quote:
"Taren Ferry?" Luc said in a flat voice. "Trollocs attacked Taren Ferry last night?"
..
Was the man called Ordeith at Taren Ferry last night? Luc asked.
..
You know Ordeith? Bornhald said, leaning toward Luc in his saddle.
It was Luc's turn to shrug casually. I have seen him here and there since coming to
the Two Rivers. A disreputable-looking man, and those who follow him no less.
The sort who might have been careless enough to allow a Trolloc attack to succeed.
Was he there? If so, one can hope he died for his folly. If not, one hopes you
have him here with you, close under your eye.
(TSR, Luc to Bornhald, The Tinker's sword, page 511)
So we now know he is an assasin for the Dark One. The name Slayer also says it.
From a dictionary:
slayer
n : someone who causes the death of a person or animal [syn: killer]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


1.3 Connecting Slayer with killing Amico and Joiya

In TSR we have seen Slayer only in TAR. We have no idea how he got in there.
We know a few things. He is there in the flesh.

Quote:
You chase Slayer, Young Bull. He is here in the flesh and he can kill.
In the flesh? You mean not just dreaming? How can he be here in the flesh?
I do not know. It is a thing dimly remembered from long ago, come again as so much else. Things of the Shadow walk the dream, now. Creatures of Heartfang. There is not safety.
..
Perrin studied the featureless metal tower. "If I can find how he got in, I can put an end to him."
Cub foolish, digging in a groundwasps' nest. This place is evil. All know this. And you would chase evil into evil. Slayer can kill.
(TSR, Hopper to Perrin, to the Tower of Ghenjei, page 323)
Than when Perrin shoots him something strange happens.

Quote:
The man howled, clutching the arrow with both hands; black feathers rained down as
the ravens beat their wings in a frenzy. And Slayer faded, him and his cry together,
growing misty, transparent, vanishing.
(TSR, Slayer, The price of a departure, page 614)
This is very different than Moghediens reaction.

Quote:
Moghedien sank to her knees, panting, clutching the protruding arrow shaft with both hands as the glow around her faded and died. Then she vanished, and the silver arrow fell where she had been, stained dark with blood.
(FOH, A silver arrow)
He slowly vanishes out of TAR. So we have two things confirmed. One he is not a dreamer and he is in the flesh. We see that compairing his disappearance with Moghediens and adding up what Hopper told him.
Another thing we know: Slayer is not a channeler. Otherwise he could have killed Perrin easily in TAR and we have seen he doesn’t need a gateway to go in or out of TAR to come there in the flesh.

So from using the first five books we know that Slayer has some other ability to get into TAR and to get out of TAR.

So it’s even possible to connect Slayer with the murder of Amico and Joiya. Considering a few points:

1. The murder of Amico and Joiya and knowing Slayer is an assasin is in the same book.
2. Knowing Slayer can go in and out of TAR and he kills people.


1.4 Conclusion
With using the first five books we know he is an assasin, he can go in and out of TAR, possibly also in a closed room.

2 Motivation

2.2 Tower of Ghenjei
In TSR we see Slayer in TAR.But we also learn another very important thing. He is connected to the Tower of Ghenjei.

Quote:
Then something glittered ahead, sparkling in the sun, a tower of metal. His quarry sped straight for it, and vanished Two leaps brought Perrin there as well.
Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man –if man he was- had gone inside somehow.
(TSR, Perrin, To the Tower of Ghenjei, page 322)
Quote:
You chase Slayer, Young Bull. He is here in the flesh and he can kill.
In the flesh? You mean not just dreaming? How can he be here in the flesh?
I do not know. It is a thing dimly remembered from long ago, come again as so much else. Things of the Shadow walk the dream, now. Creatures of Heartfang. There is not safety.
..
Perrin studied the featureless metal tower. "If I can find how he got in, I can put an end to him."
Cub foolish, digging in a groundwasps' nest. This place is evil. All know this. And you would chase evil into evil. Slayer can kill.
(TSR, Hopper to Perrin, to the Tower of Ghenjei, page 323)
Quote:
A dangerous place, archer. The Tower of Ghenjei is a bad place for humankind.
...
Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible.
...
It is a doorway, archer, to the realms of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. She said the names as if he should recognize them.
When he looked at her blankly, she said. "Did you ever play a game called Snakes and Foxes?"
All children do. At least, they do in the Two Rivers. But they give it up when they get old enough to realize there's no wayto win. Except to break the rules, she said. "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind."
"That's a line from the game. I don't understgand. What does it have to do with this tower?"
Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings. It does not matterso long as you stay away from the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn. They are not evil the way the Shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be.They are not to be trusted, archer.
(TSR, Birgitte to Perrin, to the Tower of Ghenjei, page 323 and 324)
Quote:
Like the man I was chasing? Slayer.
A good name for him. This Slayer is not old, archer, but his evil is ancient.
(TSR, Birgitte, To the Tower of Ghenjei, page 324)
We now know the tower of Ghenjei is also a way to the Snakes and the Foxes.
Apparantly Slayer went in there, or knows about the Snakes and Foxes and that if someone goes in there in TAR it will be hard to get out.


2.2. References to non-channelers killing channelers

In the first few books we have had lot’s of references of normal people killing channelers with knives or arrows. So we have had enough clues to know it is possible.

Quote:
Lan trembled-actually trembled!-and clamped his jaw shut angrily. When he spoke, he was strangely hesitant. "You will need someone to help you in Tanchico. Someone to keep a Taraboner street thief from slipping a knife into your back for your purse. Tanchico was that sort of city before the war began, and everything I've heard says it is worse now. I could ... I could protect you, Nynaeve."
(TSR, Leavetakings)
Quote:
Half of them expect me to bring them power or glory or both. The other half would as soon slip a knife in my back and try to forget the Dragon Reborn was ever in Tear. That is how the nations will greet the Dragon Reborn. Unless I quell them first, the same way I did the Tairens. Do you know why I left Callandor in Tear? To remind them of me. Every day they know it is there, driven into the Heart of the Stone, and they know I'll come back for it. That is what holds them to me." That was one reason he had left the Sword That Is Not a Sword behind. He did not like even to think of the other.
(FOH, Rand, Rhuidean)
Quote:
A Whitecloak's arrow was as fatal to an Aes Sedai as to anyone else, and the Children were too wily to let an Aes Sedai see the bowman before the arrow struck, while she still might do something about it. Moiraine had certainly never expected to wear the shawl in Fal Dara. But for an audience with the Amyrlin, there were proprieties to observe.
(TGH, Moiraine, Summoned)
Most of these references refer to a knive or arrow in the back. We know that hasn’t happened to Asmodean.


Quote:
He pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry.
There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood
draining from his face.
"You? No!" The words still hung in the air when dead took him.
(Foh, Asmodean's dead, Glowing Embers, page 682)
Why would Slayer murder Asmodean ? Killing a channeler face to face is dangerous.

2.3 Lanfear ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean

Lanfear was the only forsaken who knew that Asmodean was partly shielded and very weak.
Lanfear helped with capturing Asmodean. She put a shield on him. No one but her and Rand knew about the shield.
She was planning to tell the forsaken that Asmodean went over to Rand. But ofcourse she couldn’t tell them that she had shielded asmo and than asmo was weak.

Quote:
“Yes, they will believe me. When I tell them you went over to Lews Therin. Everyone knows you will leap wherever you think your best chance lies. There.”
Another present for you, Lews Therin. That shield will allow a trickle through, enough for him to teach. It will dissipate with time, but he’ll not be able to challenge you for months, and by that time he will have no choice but to remain with you.
(TSR, Lanfear, The traps of Rhuidean, page 676)
And as we see, she only told them Asmodean went over to Rand. She told the forsaken nothing else.

Quote:
"Are you certain Asmodean went over?" Sammael demanded. "He never had the courage to take a chance before. Where did he find the heart to join a lost cause?"
“He had the courage for an ambush he thought would set him above the rest of us. And when his choice became death or a doomed cause, it took little courage for him to choose.”
(TFOH, the first sparks fall, page 27)
So Lanfear is the only one that knows Asmo is so weak... She could have told Slayer and than ordered him to kill Asmodean.

The last time we see Lanfear is at the docks.

Quote:
Standing beside the twisted doorframe ter'angreal, she looked down at him, a queen to pass sentence, yetshe could spare time for chill smiles at a dark ivory bracelet that she turned over and over in her fingers.
..
Yesterday Moiraine had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.
..
Suppressing a small bubble of hope -she could not allow herself that luxury- Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal.
White light swallowed everything.
(Foh,Fight Moiraine and Lanfear, choices, page 630/631/632)
Moiraine and Lanfear both go to the doorway we know leading to the realm of the Finns.
The realm of the Finns. Which we know Slayer knows of! He was seen by the Tower of Ghenjei.

Quote:
Then something glittered ahead, sparkling in the sun, a tower of metal. His quarry sped straight for it, and vanished Two leaps brought Perrin there as well.
Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man –if man he was- had gone inside somehow.
(TSR, Perrin, To the Tower of Ghenjei, page 322)
The only way Lanfear could have ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean is if she was alive. In FOH we have gotten also a few clues Moiraine and than ofcourse Lanfear was alive.

First of all, ofcourse the suppressing a small buble of hope in the quote above. Than another quote below.

Quote:
“They are both gone. Lanfear is dead. And so is Moiraine.”
...
You are a fool, Rand al’Thor, “ Amys said, standing. ‘About this and many other things you are a fool.”
(FoH, Fading words, page 635)
2.4 Why would Lanfear order to kill Asmodean?

When we last seen Lanfear she was furious at Rand and tried to kill Rand.

Quote:
“If you are not mine,” she said coldly, “than you are dead.”
(FoH, Choices, page 630)
She said that as a reaction also to what Rand said:

Quote:
“You are mine, Lews Therin! Mine!”
“No.”Rand’s voice seemed to come to his ears down a mile-long tunnel. Distract her from the girls. He kept moving forward, did not look back. “I was never yours, Mierin. I will always belong to Ilyena”.
(FoH, Choices, page 629)
At that moment Lanfear was furious. She wanted him dead and tried to kill him. I think when she could think clearly she could have thought two things.

First of all: Asmodean told Rand things about her and Ilyena and also because of that Rand has no plans to go with her. So Asmodean is partly to blame as said in the quote here below.

"
Quote:
Of course you are." Studying him, she nodded slowly to herself. That cool composure returned. "Of course. Asmodean has been telling you things, about the War of Power, and me. He lies. You did love me. Until that yellow-haired trollop Ilyena stole you." For an instant, rage made her face a contorted mask; he did not think she was even aware of it. "Did you know that Asmodean severed his own mother? What they call stilling, now. Severed her, and let Myrddraal drag her away screaming. Can you trust a man like that?"
(FOH, Lanfear, Gateways)
Second: She knows the shield on Asmodean is going to disappear in time.
Quote:
Another present for you, Lews Therin. That shield will allow a trickle through, enough for him to teach. It will dissipate with time, but he’ll not be able to challenge you for months, and by that time he will have no choice but to remain with you.
(TSR, Lanfear, The traps of Rhuidean, page 676)
So if she wants to kill Rand later. She probably has to go through a stronger Asmodean first. She doesn’t want that extra chance, so she wants Asmodean dead now.
That’s why she ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean and told him that it could have easily been done.

2.5 Why would Slayer show his face to Asmodean?

Quite simple: Lanfear wanted also revenge. She wanted Asmodean to know that he was being killed by the hitman from the Dark One.
Slayer also likes to show his face.

How he could have killed Asmodean is easy. He could have used TAR to go in and out of. So he could spy on Asmodean. When he saw Asmodean went into a door he went into TAR and popped out right in front of him. He could have sliced his throat or something else in the instant Asmodean said YOU! And with No Asmodean was to late and was already almost dead.

Slayer could have transported the body through TAR and so could have gotten rid of the body.

2.5 Conclusion
At the end of FOH we knew enough to come to the conclusion how Slayer killed Asmodean and why. Slayer is an assasin of the Dark One. He can pop in and out of TAR and can go into a closed room. He is connected to the Tower of Ghenjei and the realm of the Finns. We know Moiraine and Lanfear fell through the doorway. We knew both are probably alive and we know Lanfear has a few motivations to have Asmodean killed.
Conclusion: Slayer killed Asmo in assignment of Lanfear.


Part 3: Additional Clues

First of all: Again a reference of killing a channeler with a knife, but this time it’s a forsaken.

Quote:
“If a kitchen girl puts a knife in your back,” Semirhage said coolly, “are you less dead than if you fall in a sha’je duel in Qal?”
(LoC, The first Message, p 58)
After that we see Bashere trying to ‘kill’ Rand with a knife.
Quote:
Suddenly he moved like an uncoiling spring; the dagger drawn while shifting flashed toward Rand’s heart.
....
He channeled, a simple weave of Air that wrapped up the dagger and stopped it an arm’s length from his chest.
(LoC, the First message, page 68)
Rand responds with:
Quote:
Turning the dagger in his hands, he walked slowly to Bashere. “Had I been an eyeblink slower,” he said softly, “I’de be dead. I could kill youwhere you sit and no law in Andor or anywhere else would say me wrong.”
(LoC, Rand, Lion on the Hill, page 69)
So this also proofs that if a non channeler is close to the channeler and is quick enough or the channeler slow, that the Channeler can die. Even face to face.

Now we come to book 8. After book 8, RJ supposedly said that it is really obvious now.
What happened in book 8? We see Cyndane.

Quote:
Moghedien's companion, a short young woman with long silver hair and vivid blue eyes, stared about her coldly,hardly more than glancing in Graendal's direction.
..
Red and black did not suit her coloring, and she should have made better use of such an impressive bosom.
"This is Cyndane, Graendal," Moghedien said. "We are...working together." She did not smile when she named the haughty young woman, but Graendal did. A pretty name for a more than pretty girl, but what twist of fate had led some mother of this time to give her daughter a name that meant "Last Chance?"
(Pod, Graendal, New Alliances, page 262)
Quote:
"You make a mistake, Graendal." A chilly smile barely curved Cyndane's full lips; she was enjoying this. "I lead between us. Moghedien is in a bad odor with Moridin for her recent mistakes."
(PoD, New alliances)
Quote:
The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.
(Pod, Graendal, New Alliances, page 263)
Quote:
TITLE: Path of Daggers CHAPTER: GLOSSARY Forsaken, the: The name given to thirteen powerful Aes Sedai, men and women both, who went over to the Shadow during the Age of Legends and were trapped in the sealing of the Bore into the Dark One's prison. While it has long been believed that they alone abandoned the Light during the War of the Shadow, in fact others did as well; these thirteen were only the highest ranking among them. The Forsaken (who call themselves the Chosen) are somewhat reduced in number since their awakening in the present day. The known survivors are Demandred, Semirhage, Graendal, Mesaana, Moghedien, and two who were reincarnated in new bodies and given new names, Osan'gar and Aran'gar. Recently, a man calling himself Moridin has appeared, and may be yet another of the dead Forsaken brought back from the grave by the Dark One. The same possibility may exist regarding the woman calling herself Cyndane, but since Aran'gar was a man brought back as a woman, speculation as to the identities of Moridin and Cyndane may prove futile until more is learned.
With using all these quotes we can know that Cyndane is Lanfear. So we know Lanfear could have been alive and ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean. Especially since Greandal doesn’t connect the strenght of Cyndane as the strenght of Lanfear.
While we know with normal reincarnation. Aran’gar and Osan’gar, we didn’t have a comment about them being less strong.

The last clues:

Ofcourse that’s in WH when we find out the exact things Slayer can do!

Quote:
He always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during. He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories. That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.
(WH, Slayer, Out of Thin Air, page 448)
Conclusion: Slayer killed Asmodean on the orders of Lanfear.
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2009, 12:34 AM
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:01 AM
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Well, the main objection to this theory has always been that it's not "intuitively obvious," but it's since been concluded that RJ's idea of "intuitively obvious" may not have been ours. So, with that provision, I can at least accept Slayer as a candidate.

I still have a major problem with who would've given the kill order, though. I don't buy Lanfear at all, and I don't know who else would have known where to send Slayer.

All that said... I'd begrudgingly admit that this theory really isn't all that stupid. I don't much like it, but it's not that stupid.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:04 AM
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Another thing. We've seen Slayer bragging to himself in his PoV about killing Aes Sedai. No mention of offing a Forsaken? That seems like it would be a rather odd omission, under the circumstances.

If it was omitted just as RJ's way of not answering the question - that's not exactly playing fair with your writing, frankly.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belazamon
Another thing. We've seen Slayer bragging to himself in his PoV about killing Aes Sedai. No mention of offing a Forsaken? That seems like it would be a rather odd omission, under the circumstances.

If it was omitted just as RJ's way of not answering the question - that's not exactly playing fair with your writing, frankly.
LOL, well honestly I do think that's the answer.
I mean how many times have we seen Graendal's pov. How many times has she thought that asmo is dead. Why hasn't she mentioned it yet. I think for the same reason as Slayer hasn't and that is because RJ doesn't want it.
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Belazamon
Well, the main objection to this theory has always been that it's not "intuitively obvious," but it's since been concluded that RJ's idea of "intuitively obvious" may not have been ours. So, with that provision, I can at least accept Slayer as a candidate.

I still have a major problem with who would've given the kill order, though. I don't buy Lanfear at all, and I don't know who else would have known where to send Slayer.

All that said... I'd begrudgingly admit that this theory really isn't all that stupid. I don't much like it, but it's not that stupid.
LOL, thank you.
Anyway, my take on the intuitively obvious qoute is this. Someone is murdered and we have a character named 'Slayer'.....
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Isabel
I mean how many times have we seen Graendal's pov. How many times has she thought that asmo is dead. Why hasn't she mentioned it yet. I think for the same reason as Slayer hasn't and that is because RJ doesn't want it.
Yes, but every time she's thought about Asmo, it's been to think that she's 100% certain he's dead as a doornail. When everyone else just assumes he ran away, that can at least be taken as a hint - even if it ends up as a red herring.

Here's the Slayer PoV I was referencing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WH ch.22
He always liked to see the people he killed, after if he could not during. He had especially enjoyed those two Aes Sedai in the Stone of Tear. The incredulity on their faces when he appeared out of thin air, the horror when they realized he had not come to save them, were treasured memories. That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.
Now in this context, how would Asmodean not be a vastly superior murder to be gloating over? If Slayer doesn't get to kill Aes Sedai very often, how many Forsaken has he had a chance to off?

Ergo. The fact that he was gloating over killing Aes Sedai instead of one of the Chosen means that either a) he didn't kill Asmodean, or b) RJ was being deliberately misleading instead of ambiguous.
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Belazamon
Well, the main objection to this theory has always been that it's not "intuitively obvious,"
Well, my main objection, and that of people who were interested in more than reading too far into an RJ quote, was that last time we saw Slayer he was injured and not in the vicinity of Caemlyn. So opportunity wasn't exactly knocking for him.
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sodas
Well, my main objection, and that of people who were interested in more than reading too far into an RJ quote, was that last time we saw Slayer he was injured and not in the vicinity of Caemlyn. So opportunity wasn't exactly knocking for him.
Injured might be problem, but how long does it take to move from one place to another in T'A'R -- where Slayer strikes from as demonstrated by the killing of the wrong couple in Far Madding.
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:10 PM
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Default made me think of a couple things

was someone just speculating that Lanfear would have been burned out when Moiraine ripped the angreal out of her hand, or was that a fact? all the recent talk of rules dealing with the snakes/foxes makes me think she wasn't killed, but she wished to be able to channel again. the foxes gave her the ability, in their own way, and put her in a new body (so maybe she didn't die). she could have done as you suggest and send Isam (come back to this name later), and i suspect Asmo would have recognized him and his purpose, or, she could have shown up with her new body, wearing a MoM for Asmo to recognize his killer. nothing intuitive here, i say. very convoluted and plenty of ifs and maybes and could haves.

i was wondering about this new "gauntlet" that BS has offered, as Tamyrlin reports. when were the trollocs marching along and chanting ISAM! ? was that in tSR? and again Luc thinks it was Isam that enjoys killing channelers so much? could it be that RJ was enjoying the "name game" and to him, it was decidedly Isam that killed Asmo, hypothosizing that Slayer did it is too generic? i forget the story of Isam and how he and Luc melded (not that we know much to begin with). and i know it could be a cheap shot about NOT thinking about Asmo and only the Aes Sedai, but could Isam have a particular grudge with the women? and of course he had time to savor killing them, and had only an instant to kill Asmo. hadn't he nailed the women's tongues to the wall?
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Old 11-08-2009, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Eclipse
was someone just speculating that Lanfear would have been burned out when Moiraine ripped the angreal out of her hand, or was that a fact? all the recent talk of rules dealing with the snakes/foxes makes me think she wasn't killed, but she wished to be able to channel again. the foxes gave her the ability, in their own way, and put her in a new body (so maybe she didn't die). she could have done as you suggest and send Isam (come back to this name later), and i suspect Asmo would have recognized him and his purpose, or, she could have shown up with her new body, wearing a MoM for Asmo to recognize his killer. nothing intuitive here, i say. very convoluted and plenty of ifs and maybes and could haves.

i was wondering about this new "gauntlet" that BS has offered, as Tamyrlin reports. when were the trollocs marching along and chanting ISAM! ? was that in tSR? and again Luc thinks it was Isam that enjoys killing channelers so much? could it be that RJ was enjoying the "name game" and to him, it was decidedly Isam that killed Asmo, hypothosizing that Slayer did it is too generic? i forget the story of Isam and how he and Luc melded (not that we know much to begin with). and i know it could be a cheap shot about NOT thinking about Asmo and only the Aes Sedai, but could Isam have a particular grudge with the women? and of course he had time to savor killing them, and had only an instant to kill Asmo. hadn't he nailed the women's tongues to the wall?
Yes, speculation in reguards to Lanfear by me. I don't think she got any wishes. She was held and probably died in Finnland. I just theorize that she starved to death there while she was burnt out. So she had to be Healed by another female, to regain OP use, but not get her powers fully back.

As for Slayer, he did rip out their tongues while they were still alive. Punishment for failure, was obviously very public.

Asmo's was done in secret, with no corpse left behind.

So it being punishment for betrayal doesn't seem likely for Asmo.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:42 AM
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I agree with the idea that Slayer is the killer. Though I think Asmo just happened to walk through the wrong door. That could explain why he didn't include Asmo, when he thought about his "greatest kills". Asmo wasn't a hit that was ordered by anyone. It was pure chance.

Quote:
As for Slayer, he did rip out their tongues while they were still alive. Punishment for failure, was obviously very public.

Asmo's was done in secret, with no corpse left behind.

So it being punishment for betrayal doesn't seem likely for Asmo.
Having Asmo just disappear might have served the Shadow best. Slayer might not wanna brag about this kill, since this kill might have been pure luck. Nothing to brag about.

Also, about him being injured - we know people can be Healed. He only needs to get into t'a'r, move with great speed there (Egwene on power-Bela style), and then be Healed by his channeling partners.

Last edited by Nightstrike; 11-09-2009 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:53 AM
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was someone just speculating that Lanfear would have been burned out when Moiraine ripped the angreal out of her hand, or was that a fact?
It was speculation. We know that burning out is a definite possibility in such circumstances, but we also know that it is not a certainty. There have been cases where Rand suddenly lost the OP and then thought "I could have burned out, doing that".
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightstrike
I agree with the idea that Slayer is the killer. Though I think Asmo just happened to walk through the wrong door. That could explain why he didn't include Asmo, when he thought about his "greatest kills". Asmo wasn't a hit that was ordered by anyone. It was pure chance.
That would actually be even more annoying and sloppy, because then there wouldn't be any good way to "reveal" it.

Big battle scene:
Slayer: (throwing a knife at Min, just because) Oh yeah, I was in the palace in Caemlyn once and I totally murdered this dude who walked into the room.
Rand: (channeling something complex we've never seen before) You killed Asmo! You bastard!
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Old 11-09-2009, 06:37 PM
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If Slayer killed Asmo, an intuitively obvious reason for him to not gloat about it, even in his thoughts is just that, he wouldn't want to gloat about killing one of the Chosen. "Thoughts become words, words become action." That was on a poster in my kindergarten classroom and stands true. If Slayer went around bragging in his head that he killed Asmo, he may slip and actually say it out loud when not paying attention in a conversation. Granted, he would probably just kill whoever heard and their entire family just to be sure, but there is a chance that a Dark One's eyes is on him (rat/raven and what-not). If it got back to a Chosen that there is another force out there that can threaten their lives, its not a far stretch to assume he/she would go out of his/her way for a bit to remove Slayer from existence. Slayer wouldn't like that very much.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:18 PM
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If Slayer went around bragging in his head that he killed Asmo, he may slip and actually say it out loud when not paying attention in a conversation.
Sorry, I just don't buy this argument for a microsecond.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:37 PM
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Sorry, I just don't buy this argument for a microsecond.
You've never accidentally spoke out of turn? I mean how easy was it for us to figure out Slayer-is-Luc-is-Isam? Plus all that wine and ale they drink helps.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:55 PM
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You've never accidentally spoke out of turn? I mean how easy was it for us to figure out Slayer-is-Luc-is-Isam? Plus all that wine and ale they drink helps.
It's not that part I disagree with at all. It's the part where Slayer could be thinking very specifically about the Aes Sedai he got to kill, but somehow has trained even his subconscious mind to not even mention Asmo, even though the context makes it practically inevitable.
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Belazamon
That would actually be even more annoying and sloppy, because then there wouldn't be any good way to "reveal" it.
That could be explained by the difference between "best kills" and "thinking about killing a Chosen". Or any other way of bringing it up. I'm sure there are more than one way for him to recollect the incident.
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Old 11-10-2009, 02:10 AM
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I agree with the idea that Slayer is the killer. Though I think Asmo just happened to walk through the wrong door. That could explain why he didn't include Asmo, when he thought about his "greatest kills". Asmo wasn't a hit that was ordered by anyone. It was pure chance.
I'm confused why you think Slayer just happened to be there that day, walking around Caemlyn with the Aiel on full alert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightstrike
Also, about him being injured - we know people can be Healed. He only needs to get into t'a'r, move with great speed there (Egwene on power-Bela style), and then be Healed by his channeling partners.
I'm sure that would be possible, but that is never mentioned by Slayer in his own thoughtst.

It is rather more likely that he was hurt, and didn't naturally heal until his return months later in Winter's Heart.
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Last edited by Sodas; 11-10-2009 at 02:13 AM.
 

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