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  #1  
Old 11-11-2009, 07:08 PM
Lilia Lilia is offline
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Default LTT's voice - Taint or something else?

I wasn't sure if this belonged in any of the other threads about LTT and the integration. I apologize if this has already been talked about elsewhere.

At the end of KOD when Semirhage is captured, she mentions Rand hearing the voice of LTT.

Quote:
Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie. "He's insane," she said coolly. Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne. "Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be . . . abrupt."
After reading TGS, I began to wonder if LTT's voice was caused by the taint. From what Semirhage says, it seems that this happened in the AOL because it was something that Graendal had attempted to heal before. I don't really see her attempting to heal taint infested men after her release. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
  #2  
Old 11-11-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilia
I wasn't sure if this belonged in any of the other threads about LTT and the integration. I apologize if this has already been talked about elsewhere.

At the end of KOD when Semirhage is captured, she mentions Rand hearing the voice of LTT.



After reading TGS, I began to wonder if LTT's voice was caused by the taint. From what Semirhage says, it seems that this happened in the AOL because it was something that Graendal had attempted to heal before. I don't really see her attempting to heal taint infested men after her release. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Most probably Rand's access to past life memories/LTT's Voice was the result of the Taint as the proximate cause -- The Pattern needed for Rand to have the past life memories in one form or another, and the Taint was the mechanism the Pattern chose to make them available.

That does NOT preclude past life memories/voices becoming available to AOL patients, it just means that the Pattern had to use diffenrent proximate causes to make them available because there was no Taint until the Strike at Shayol Ghul
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:14 PM
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Some other possible causes I've mentioned before are brain damage, or possibly the use of hallucinogenic drugs. The taint could be one of many possible causes.

Also - welcome to Theoryland.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:14 PM
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you seem to be describing the taint barrier degradation theory, where the taint has caused the barrier between past lives to weaken, causing madness. And ya, semi's comment in KOD really hurts that theory stating that there were cases of past life experiences before the taint.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:15 PM
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It doesn't really hurt the theory - just makes it plain that there might be other things that could cause barrier degradation.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:24 PM
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Hi guys, my first post on these forums, don't bash me too hard

I've always thought that the LTT voice was a mix of 3 major factors, the first 2 feeding into the 3rd.

1) Rand is LTT spun out again, and similar to how Birgitte retains her memories in the world of dreams, LTT's memories have been there for Rand to access in some kind of cosmic racial memory.

2) The stories in Randland of males going mad when they channel have acted in Rand's mind as some kind of self fulfilling prophecy that he himself will go mad one day. When he begins to tap into LTT's memories he needs to rationalise them to reassure himself that he's not mad "yet" and invents the voice of LTT as an inner persona.

Which leads mes to 3) The LTT voice has been a very large "Dumbo's magic feather" device used by RJ and now BS to explain how Rand eventually comes to terms with his power, his fate and his past life memories. Rand has needed to use the LTT voice as a kind of talisman or springboard rather than realise his own full potential in it's own right.

The final chapter in tGS is just like Dumbo finally realising he can fly on his own where Rand finally realises that you don't get to be the Dragon Reborn without also being the Dragon and then moving past it and being Rand.

I peronally don't think there was any reintergration of personalities like Semhirage mentions (in fact I took most of what she said to Rand as pure bluff based on the way she speaks to her interrogators), rather that Rand manages to rationalise his way out of a self imposed semi-psychotic episode.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:16 AM
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after reading TGS, i've been wondering if Rand's LTT memories are partially the result of exposure to extremely high amounts of saidin. the more he has incidents of holding large amounts of the one power, the more LTT memories he keeps having.

and on top of dragonmount, when he's holding more power than any human has any business holding, he suddenly can remember all his past lives.

now, i realize the problem with that is that nobody else seems to develop past life memories after holding large amounts of the one power, so i'm thinking perhaps it's a partial factor involved in conjunction with the taint, the many mental stresses he's under, and the fact that the pattern needs him to have special abilities as the dragon reborn right now.
  #8  
Old 11-12-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean
Hi guys, my first post on these forums, don't bash me too hard

I've always thought that the LTT voice was a mix of 3 major factors, the first 2 feeding into the 3rd.

1) Rand is LTT spun out again, and similar to how Birgitte retains her memories in the world of dreams, LTT's memories have been there for Rand to access in some kind of cosmic racial memory.

2) The stories in Randland of males going mad when they channel have acted in Rand's mind as some kind of self fulfilling prophecy that he himself will go mad one day. When he begins to tap into LTT's memories he needs to rationalise them to reassure himself that he's not mad "yet" and invents the voice of LTT as an inner persona.

Which leads mes to 3) The LTT voice has been a very large "Dumbo's magic feather" device used by RJ and now BS to explain how Rand eventually comes to terms with his power, his fate and his past life memories. Rand has needed to use the LTT voice as a kind of talisman or springboard rather than realise his own full potential in it's own right.

The final chapter in tGS is just like Dumbo finally realising he can fly on his own where Rand finally realises that you don't get to be the Dragon Reborn without also being the Dragon and then moving past it and being Rand.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowbeard
after reading TGS, i've been wondering if Rand's LTT memories are partially the result of exposure to extremely high amounts of saidin. the more he has incidents of holding large amounts of the one power, the more LTT memories he keeps having.
Holding the one Power heightens the senses. It might not be the cause of Rand having the memories, but it would most likely make him more aware of them.
  #10  
Old 11-13-2009, 09:16 PM
Lilia Lilia is offline
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I found another interesting quote in TGS from Verin.

Quote:
Verin looked up. "Oh, I'm not convinced young al'Thor's problems are completely due to the Power, Matrim. Many would like to blame his temperament on saidin, but to do that is to ignore the incredible stresses that we've settled on that poor boy's shoulders."
This quote seems to go directly into the 'construct' category. I'm surprised nobody has latched onto it yet.

Another question... If Rand 'created' LTT in his head to help him get away from this stress, does this lessen the blame on the taint for his 'madness'?
  #11  
Old 11-13-2009, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilia
I found another interesting quote in TGS from Verin.

This quote seems to go directly into the 'construct' category. I'm surprised nobody has latched onto it yet.
Well, we're all well aware of the stresses on his shoulders, so I guess none of us thought we needed Verin to reiterate that for us, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilia
Another question... If Rand 'created' LTT in his head to help him get away from this stress, does this lessen the blame on the taint for his 'madness'?
In a way, yes it does. Rand subconsciously created the voice partly because he feared madness (and the madness that Lews Therin represented), but it ended up driving him more mad. I expect a lot of his mental issues to be gone after this book - I doubt we'll see much lingering taint madness. His mental problems from this point on will stem mostly from his 'mountain', and from the link with Moridin.
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  #12  
Old 11-14-2009, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez
It doesn't really hurt the theory - just makes it plain that there might be other things that could cause barrier degradation.
Exactly.
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Old 11-14-2009, 02:27 PM
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