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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
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  #1  
Old 11-13-2009, 11:21 AM
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When Rand visits Moridin in TAR. Moridin says somethings has me a little more then confused.

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It is not time for us to fight. Go. Leave me in peace. I do not know what would happen to us if we killed one another. The Great Lord will have you soon enough. His victory is assured.
The line about being unsure what would happen if they killed each other bothers me. I interpret it that he is referring to the present and not the future.

'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, but is it actually necessary thing for the Dark one in order to break the wheel? The Dragon is bound to the Horn, So if he dies his soul goes to the horn and not the dark one I would assume. So the DO need's him alive to break the wheel.

For such a smart guy it seems like he's tipping his hand a bit. It sounds to me like the last battle can't happen if Rand is not there. Of course he just lying but he seemed so tired and dejected. I think he speaking the truth.
  #2  
Old 11-13-2009, 11:26 AM
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I'm assuming that they are planning on manipulating the link to get Rand's soul, in one way or another (perhaps something like the Slayer merge). That would prevent Rand from re-sealing the prison (or making it whole again, like the Creator made it), which would allow the Dark One to do whatever it is he plans on doing (breaking the Wheel, etc.) I further assume that this is why Alivia will have to help Rand die - to save him from that fate. However, these are tenuous assumptions. I don't have any really strong opinions on it, other than that I DO NOT believe that Rand will end up in Moridin's body, lol.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2009, 11:30 AM
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He could simply be referring to the balefire link between the two of them.
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  #4  
Old 11-13-2009, 11:40 AM
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W~ell assuming that it is nothing more than a link at this time and that balefire can no longer burn either thread from the pattern. The the DO can always re spin Elan/Ishy/Moridin's thread and why wouldn't he, he is certainly the most successful of the chosen.
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Old 11-13-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
W~ell assuming that it is nothing more than a link at this time and that balefire can no longer burn either thread from the pattern. The the DO can always re spin Elan/Ishy/Moridin's thread and why wouldn't he, he is certainly the most successful of the chosen.
It might not kill him, it would likely just make him go insane.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, but is it actually necessary thing for the Dark one in order to break the wheel? The Dragon is bound to the Horn, So if he dies his soul goes to the horn and not the dark one I would assume. So the DO need's him alive to break the wheel.

For such a smart guy it seems like he's tipping his hand a bit. It sounds to me like the last battle can't happen if Rand is not there. Of course he just lying but he seemed so tired and dejected. I think he speaking the truth.
He's been playing with all his cards on the table since tEotW. If he were interested in keeping his plans secret he would never have mentioned manipulating Jain Farstrider, sending Hawkwing's armies across the oceans, infiltrating the White Tower, or any of the other tidbits he casually hands out to all three ta'veren while bragging about how clever he's been.

I don't think the DO needs the Dragon alive, but I do think it's much, much easier to win if he's still in the game. He's essentially the most powerful destructive force in the world right now. Whichever side successfully harnesses that force gains a huge advantage.
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Old 11-13-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
When Rand visits Moridin in TAR. Moridin says somethings has me a little more then confused.



The line about being unsure what would happen if they killed each other bothers me. I interpret it that he is referring to the present and not the future.

'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, but is it actually necessary thing for the Dark one in order to break the wheel? The Dragon is bound to the Horn, So if he dies his soul goes to the horn and not the dark one I would assume. So the DO need's him alive to break the wheel.

For such a smart guy it seems like he's tipping his hand a bit. It sounds to me like the last battle can't happen if Rand is not there. Of course he just lying but he seemed so tired and dejected. I think he speaking the truth.
I believe he is partly telling the truth, he is unsure what will happen to them, because of the link between the two of them, but he will not try to kill Rand because he knows if he is sucessful the Dark One loses this round and will have to wait another 3000 years untill the Dragon is Reborn again.

I believe the only way the Dark One can be freed is by the Dragon using the TP to destroy the wheel.

"Only a true enemy can be relied upon"
  #8  
Old 11-13-2009, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
When Rand visits Moridin in TAR. Moridin says somethings has me a little more then confused.

The line about being unsure what would happen if they killed each other bothers me. I interpret it that he is referring to the present and not the future.
Moridin is far more aware of, and concerned about the link he has with Rand. The link was caused by their balefire streams touching in Crown of Swords.

Rand has noticed the nausea that it causes whenever he touches Saidin or whenever Moridin does, and also noticed the fact that Moridin's face appears in his head, and also channeled the True Power. However Rand has totally failed to put two and two together and hasn't consciously realized his link with Moridin.

Moridin by contrast has realised he is linked with Rand now, but he doesn't understand the link, and is very unhappy about the sufferings it is causing him. Moridin doesn't have anything near Rand's ability to withstand pain. Apparently Rand's loss of an arm causes physical pain for Moridin. Moridin is particularly concerned at what would happen to him if Rand died. Because of this Moridin has banned any attempts on Rand's life and any attempts to hurt Rand.

Moridin believes the Dark One will eventually win, and doesn't care if it's in this age or the next. Yet somewhat self-contradictorily Moridin wants the DO to win and destroy the pattern and at the same time Moridin still has the basic human instinct for self-preservation: He doesn't want to die. He's afraid of what might happen to him if Rand died while linked to him.
  #9  
Old 11-13-2009, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel
Moridin by contrast has realised he is linked with Rand now, but he doesn't understand the link, and is very unhappy about the sufferings it is causing him. Moridin doesn't have anything near Rand's ability to withstand pain. Apparently Rand's loss of an arm causes physical pain for Moridin. Moridin is particularly concerned at what would happen to him if Rand died. Because of this Moridin has banned any attempts on Rand's life and any attempts to hurt Rand.
It never occurred to me that if Moridin felt tired he felt more of Rand's suffering... I knew i loved Theorylanders for a good reason!
  #10  
Old 11-14-2009, 04:26 AM
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Question is, does the DO know about the link or is Moridin keeping it to himself?
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  #11  
Old 11-14-2009, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
Question is, does the DO know about the link or is Moridin keeping it to himself?
That's something that has also intrigued me.

My pet theory is that Moridin is keeping it to himself. He hasn't told the DO. However he is letting it affect the orders he gives to the other forsaken. He is no longer acting in the DO's best interest, he is acting in his own best interests. I believe that more and more he will come to realise that the DO's interests do not coincide with his own. Eventually he will realise that his doesn't really want to see the Pattern destroyed, will recant his nihilism and turn against the DO.
  #12  
Old 11-14-2009, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
'The Great lord capturing Rand soon' sounds like he's being arrogant, ...
Assuming, of course, that one discounts precisely how close the GLotD came to achieving that just a very little later when Semirhage broke free.
If one doesn't make that assumption, then it is a lot less arrogant, I would say.
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Old 11-14-2009, 05:52 AM
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Perhaps there is something in the prophecies of the shadow to that effect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel
My pet theory is that Moridin is keeping it to himself. He hasn't told the DO. However he is letting it affect the orders he gives to the other forsaken. He is no longer acting in the DO's best interest, he is acting in his own best interests. I believe that more and more he will come to realise that the DO's interests do not coincide with his own. Eventually he will realise that his doesn't really want to see the Pattern destroyed, will recant his nihilism and turn against the DO.
I think so too, but there are a few tidbits here and there that make me wonder. For instance, Min saw Rand merging with someone but if Min saw this, is it possible some of the other forsaken have seen it too through TAR? Especially Moghedien and Lanfear.

If its an important event in the course of the pattern's weaving, it might be accesible to the forsaken too. And Lanfear's plans remain very sketchy at best.
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Old 11-14-2009, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
If one doesn't make that assumption, then it is a lot less arrogant, I would say.
Is Moridin and S.H. working together or are they independent to an extent?
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Old 11-14-2009, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
Is Moridin and S.H. working together or are they independent to an extent?
Yes.

Which may not be very informative, I'll grant, but it is the best we can do.
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Old 11-14-2009, 07:40 AM
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The only connection linking the two off the top of my head is Lanfear/Cy, right? And if the DO has his trusty leader among the chosen why does he need S.H. unless he has doubt about Moridin.

Your right not enough info... I'm getting boggled on this... Is this Fischer game plot I've heard about?
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:14 AM
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The DO may be using SH because there are things which Moridin simply cannot do. One rather obvious case of that is SH's ability to switch off the OP, thus making channeling impossible.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalli
Is Moridin and S.H. working together or are they independent to an extent?
I'd say independant. Remember that Moridin forbade Semirhage's rescue and despite this SH showed up to give her one last chance.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean
I'd say independant. Remember that Moridin forbade Semirhage's rescue and despite this SH showed up to give her one last chance.
I always saw that as a joke by the dark one. Give Semi a chance then completely give her up by giving Rand access to the TP (i still havnt decided if it was via Ishy connection or Dark Ones will). It also got rid of a liability as Semi wasnt exactly withstanding interrogation very well.
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Old 11-14-2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean
I'd say independant. Remember that Moridin forbade Semirhage's rescue and despite this SH showed up to give her one last chance.
did he do it knowing/hoping that Rand would channel the OP to get out of a tight fix? That would imply that he knows of the connection and also that he's quite willing to use Moridin in his own plans.
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