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  #1  
Old 11-14-2009, 04:12 PM
Ahava Ahava is offline
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Default Sheriam's Finger

Just finished my second read through of TGS and thought of a question. I don't think this has been discussed yet. If it has, I apologize. Is there a dream ter’angreal still at large somewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 678,TGS
“In the chaos of the Seanchan attack, Siuan hadn’t been able to watch Sheriam. Why did the Keeper wear a bandage on her left hand? Egwene didn’t believe her excuse of an accident while riding, her little finger getting caught in the reins. Why had she refused Healing? Blast Siuan! Instead of watching Sheriam, she’d come to kidnap Egwene!”
So it seems Sheriam is missing a finger. And we can be fairly certain why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 381,TGS
“Ah, sleepweavers," the figure said. “Yes, those could be useful. How many?"
Sheriam hesitated. Her first instinct was to lie or hedge—this seemed like information she could hold over the figure. But lying to one of the Chosen? A poor choice. "We had twenty," Sheriam said truthfully. "But one was with the woman Leane, who was captured. That leaves us with nineteen.” Just enough for Egwene’s meetings in the World of Dreams—one for each of the Sitters and one for Sheriam herself.
“Yes,” the figure hissed, shrouded in darkness. “Useful indeed. Steal the sleepweavers… Each of the sleepweavers you fail to acquire in that time will cost you a finger or a toe.” … Steal the sleepweavers! All nineteen of them? In three days?”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 706,TGS
“Sheriam wasn’t lying,” Lelaine said. The ter’angreal used for dreams are gone. All of them.”
There are at least 2 possibilities here. One is that Mesaana really expected Sheriam to steal all 20 ter’angreal, not caring that one was lost with Leane (Siuan has it in reality). The other is that Sheriam gave Mesaana 18 of the sleepweavers. This would mean that we should begin making theories about what she did with number 19 instead and why, obviously the more entertaining choice.

Cutting off a finger rather than a toe makes it seem like we were meant to notice. After all, the black ajah survives based on secrecy. It would be much easier to keep a missing toe quiet than a finger. Perhaps this also has something to do with why so many of the black ajah escaped. They knew they were about to be unveiled because of the stealing of the ter’angreal. I don’t know. I'm new at all of this. What do you all think?
  #2  
Old 11-14-2009, 04:40 PM
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I doubt that Mesaana would have punished her for Leane's ter'angreal, though I suppose it is possible. Also, it may be that she lost toes as well, so no telling if she got 18 or less. But she expected to be able to get all of them, since they were all in one place, presumably.
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  #3  
Old 11-14-2009, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahava
The other is that Sheriam gave Mesaana 18 of the sleepweavers. This would mean that we should begin making theories about what she did with number 19 instead and why, obviously the more entertaining choice.
Hmmmm... good point! I got nothin' myself, but maybe it'll be important later.

Of course, the much more depressing alternative is that Sheriam just got the final ter'angreal a day late.
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  #4  
Old 11-14-2009, 05:49 PM
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i never imagined Mesaana as Yakuza.

Even if Sheriam managed to keep #19 to herself or to another black sister, who would have it now? Egwene flushed thru the entire Salidar crew.
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  #5  
Old 11-14-2009, 06:56 PM
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If she'd managed to get her hands on it she would have turned it over along with the others. The most likely explanation is that she was punished for failing to retrieve all 20 because the Chosen don't look kindly on excuses like "the one Leane had was in the Tower and it's physically impossible for me to get my hands on it." The second most likely explanation is the one of the Salidar Aes Sedai pulled the same trick as Siuan and checked out one of the dreamweavers without telling anybody, inadvertently screwing Sheriam over in the process.
  #6  
Old 11-14-2009, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I doubt that Mesaana would have punished her for Leane's ter'angreal, though I suppose it is possible. Also, it may be that she lost toes as well, so no telling if she got 18 or less. But she expected to be able to get all of them, since they were all in one place, presumably.
Presumably yes, but then again, the Aes Sedai have a remarkably poor record of keeping their precious 'angreal secure. They tend to get 'borrowed' with alarming frequency.

At least Egwene has decided that just locking the Tower's cache behind an old door in the basement is not enough anymore; what with the number of times the Oath Rod went walkabout even before she worked out how to get passed the Wards by simply Travelling into the store room.

So it's quite possible that someone else has apropriated the sleepweavers--and decided to keep it quiet now that the theft of the others has been revealed. Thus when we next read of one being used, we can't simply assume that it's by a Black.
  #7  
Old 11-15-2009, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyman
At least Egwene has decided that just locking the Tower's cache behind an old door in the basement is not enough anymore; what with the number of times the Oath Rod went walkabout even before she worked out how to get passed the Wards by simply Travelling into the store room.
Question: why did not a single of the Forsaken, who have been so desperately searching for angreal and sa'angreal throughout the series, use this trick?
  #8  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:14 AM
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Well, I'll fight the tendency to write it off as a plot hole, and offer this suggestion: maybe they feared that, once the 'angreal were discovered missing, that someone with the (rare) Talent of reading residue would then be able to discover Traveling by investigating the crime scene.
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  #9  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:19 AM
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A problem which could have been solved by the seemingly simple expedient of obliterating the entire Tower, thus burying the evidence under the rubble.
But I admit that I may be more destructively inclined than the Forsaken. Especially the female ones are nice and cuddly compared to me.
  #10  
Old 11-15-2009, 06:51 AM
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Default The Original Dreamweaver's with Aviendha

IIRC when Aviendha left Caemlyn Elayne lent her the dreamweaver she had, which was the original one. I recall mention of Suian being resistant to letting the original go.

Unless my memory has failed me here, this would constitute a genuine plot hole, since Egwene definitely thinks about Elayne's disappointment when she finds out the original has been stolen (in tGS).

I wish I had time to go look up references, but hopefully somebody with the facts at their fingertips (heh) will confirm/correct here.

If Sheriam has failed to recover the only one that lacks the "protections" for novices (i.e. works properly), Mesaana may have been angry enough to take a finger despite the risk.

BTW, I've always suspected that the reason Elayne couldn't fully duplicate the original is that it requires using both saidin and saidar. Alternatively, it may be that it's one of the type of ter'angreal that needs to be unique (can't be exactly duplicated). The "oath rods" appear to be like this, although the different numbers make each technically unique.

Last edited by ArtK; 11-15-2009 at 07:55 AM.
  #11  
Old 11-15-2009, 10:01 AM
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No, the Hall didn't let Elayne take the original. She's been using a copy since she left Salidar with Nynaeve.
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  #12  
Old 11-15-2009, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
No, the Hall didn't let Elayne take the original. She's been using a copy since she left Salidar with Nynaeve.
According to the Encyclopedia's summary of the "Twisted Ring" Elayne had the original in Winter's Heart and she hasn't been back to the Tower or Rebel Camp since leaving for Ebou Dar.

Quote:
WH,Ch10 - Elayne uses the original twisted ring and Nynaeve uses a copy to visit Tel'aran'rhiod and meet with Egwene.
There seems to be some confusion in the eWOT summary though becaue it also says Siuan uses the Twisted Ring to confer with Egwene after she's captured without specifying that it is a copy Elayne made.

Elayne did send the Twisted Ring she had been using with Aviendha and kept a different Dreamweaver ring that requires Channeling.
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  #13  
Old 11-15-2009, 07:56 PM
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IIRC, there is a section in tGS where Egwene thinks "Elayne would be [pissed] because the original ter'angreal she had copied from had been stolen"
Or something like that...
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  #14  
Old 11-15-2009, 09:24 PM
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For some reason I thought Elayne didn't have it. My apologies. Thanks WH.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
According to the Encyclopedia's summary of the "Twisted Ring" Elayne had the original in Winter's Heart and she hasn't been back to the Tower or Rebel Camp since leaving for Ebou Dar.



There seems to be some confusion in the eWOT summary though becaue it also says Siuan uses the Twisted Ring to confer with Egwene after she's captured without specifying that it is a copy Elayne made.

Elayne did send the Twisted Ring she had been using with Aviendha and kept a different Dreamweaver ring that requires Channeling.
AFAIK none of the rings requires channeling, it's the other types that do.

As for Siuan's conferences with Egwene, she certainly would have used the original if it were available, there were several mentions during the initial training that Siuan insisted on using that ring. Either way, then, it wouldn't have been delivered to Mesaana.
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Old 11-15-2009, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
A problem which could have been solved by the seemingly simple expedient of obliterating the entire Tower, thus burying the evidence under the rubble.
But I admit that I may be more destructively inclined than the Forsaken. Especially the female ones are nice and cuddly compared to me.
Wouldn't work. Mesaana won't do it because it means destroying her power base, and no other Forsaken will do it because it means invading Mesaana's power base, an act which she might not look too kindly on.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2009, 09:57 PM
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I believe Gonzo was being facetious. That's usually a safe bet, with Gonzo.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtK
AFAIK none of the rings requires channeling, it's the other types that do.

eWOT/items/silver_ring.html

Silver Ring
A silver ring worked in braided spirals. A ter'angreal. Channeling Spirit into it leads one into sleep, then into Tel'aran'rhiod.


References
...
  • KoD,Ch15 – The silver ring is recovered from Ispan.
  • KoD,Ch15 – Elayne keeps the silver ring so she can enter Tel'aran'rhiod if she can channel well enough.
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Old 11-16-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold

eWOT/items/silver_ring.html

Silver Ring
A silver ring worked in braided spirals. A ter'angreal. Channeling Spirit into it leads one into sleep, then into Tel'aran'rhiod.


References
...
  • KoD,Ch15 – The silver ring is recovered from Ispan.
  • KoD,Ch15 – Elayne keeps the silver ring so she can enter Tel'aran'rhiod if she can channel well enough.
So I'm not crazy...good.
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Old 11-16-2009, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
I believe Gonzo was being facetious. That's usually a safe bet, with Gonzo.
Yes and no. Suppose that Mesaana had taken the entire BA away from the Tower, nicked all the angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal from the stores, and then had obliterated the Tower itself.
That would have destroyed the AS as a united force, it would have very seriously weakened the forces of the Light, frightened many people, and it would still have left her at least as strong as she is now.
As an added bonus, it could have been blamed on Rand. That wouldn't convince women who can read channeling residues, if they actually went there, but many others would have used the Gawyn approach: "it is a rumor, so it must be true".
 

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