art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-15-2009, 10:58 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Red face The great loot.

I would have posted this in another thread, but I want to avoid hijacking that thread at this time. I'm actually very curious about this.

Mesaana apparently lied to the other forsaken about the loot, sorry cache in the WT and other places. Why? Apart from her usual devious nature that is. The AS could have simply woken up to find that the store was empty.

Personally, I see no reason why Mesaana would not have removed a lot of items from the WT stores. Or at least what she wants and maybe even replace them with fakes. And I don't see it as a plot gap, since RJ brought up the issue of guarding the WT's stores in tFoH and then in the forsaken discussion in (?)LoC. And there have been numerous references to security of angreal and terangreal since then.

So what's going on? I could buy the forsaken wanting to give people a false sense of security by giving the appearance that these caches were still intact. But no more than that. Especially given the amount of effort that (for example) Sammael put into locating these things. And someone put a lot of effort to locating Bayle Domon in tGH as well.

And what is Mesaana plotting? Why does she want so desperately to deny access to TAR? Really curious. Any thoughts?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #2  
Old 11-15-2009, 11:23 AM
kivo kivo is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Allentown, PA
Posts: 201
kivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to allkivo is a name known to all
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
And what is Mesaana plotting? Why does she want so desperately to deny access to TAR? Really curious. Any thoughts?
I had assumed it was because she wants to limit the ability of the enemy to enter TAR to as few people as possible. They already have to deal with Egwene, the Wise Ones and Rand there. Perrin too, not sure if they are aware of that though. The good guys are already outnumbering the bad guys in TAR. So stealing the rings at least limits that as much as possible.
  #3  
Old 11-15-2009, 11:37 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Lanfear has seen Perrin there at least once, when he barged in on her unannounced. It wasn't quite as good as when he did that with Moiraine, though.
  #4  
Old 11-15-2009, 11:38 AM
JSUCamel's Avatar
JSUCamel JSUCamel is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 3,264
JSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant futureJSUCamel has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to JSUCamel Send a message via MSN to JSUCamel Send a message via Yahoo to JSUCamel
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kivo
I had assumed it was because she wants to limit the ability of the enemy to enter TAR to as few people as possible. They already have to deal with Egwene, the Wise Ones and Rand there. Perrin too, not sure if they are aware of that though. The good guys are already outnumbering the bad guys in TAR. So stealing the rings at least limits that as much as possible.
This is probably very true. It also lends credence to the theory (Crispin's, I believe?) that part of the Last Battle will take place in TAR. Perhaps Perrin will lead the wolves there. Hmm.
__________________
---

"Nice try, Jack!" - Robert Jordan (to Camel)
"Camel must be the coolest TLer ever, by now." -GLotD

A grilled cheese eaten more than five minutes later is just no good. -Crispin



  #5  
Old 11-15-2009, 11:43 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSUCamel
This is probably very true. It also lends credence to the theory (Crispin's, I believe?) that part of the Last Battle will take place in TAR. Perhaps Perrin will lead the wolves there. Hmm.
An idea supported by Hopper's belief that he will take part in it too. If Hopper is reborn now, he'll be far too young to do anything other than hide away.
  #6  
Old 11-15-2009, 12:39 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kivo
I had assumed it was because she wants to limit the ability of the enemy to enter TAR to as few people as possible. They already have to deal with Egwene, the Wise Ones and Rand there. Perrin too, not sure if they are aware of that though. The good guys are already outnumbering the bad guys in TAR. So stealing the rings at least limits that as much as possible.
Exactly the point. There are more where those came from. I mean the WT, other caches and from Elayne -there were others who had limited success at making terangreal iirc- who isn't making any right now though.

So taking those might only draw more attention to TAR now.

Secondly, Mesaana could kill most of those AS in TAR. Or is she afraid of the half trained girls?

Thirdly, they pose more of a danger to other chosen than to her since she knows of them.

But even that is the reason, it still doesn't tell us what special plans Mesaana has for TAR. I doubt she's the shadow's appointed steward for this realm since there are others that are stronger in this area - Lanfear and Moghedien.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #7  
Old 11-15-2009, 12:56 PM
Bonzi77 Bonzi77 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Bonzi77 is a jewel in the roughBonzi77 is a jewel in the roughBonzi77 is a jewel in the roughBonzi77 is a jewel in the rough
Default

Being stationed in the White Tower, Mesaana might well have known that Leanne did not have the ring on her when she was captured. So that reason wouldn't have flown with her.
__________________
http://lifeofbonzi.blogspot.com
  #8  
Old 11-15-2009, 01:04 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzi77
Being stationed in the White Tower, Mesaana might well have known that Leanne did not have the ring on her when she was captured. So that reason wouldn't have flown with her.
Hmmm, wrong thread perhaps?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #9  
Old 11-15-2009, 01:23 PM
crue crue is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 68
crue is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

I thought she wanted the rings back because those rings allowed the Rebel hall to meet with Egwene. Mesaana realized that the 'girl' that was raised Amyrlin was more of a threat than a puppet, and wanted her support removed.
She directed Sheriam to remove Egwene's support in the rebel camp. It stands to reason the TAR rings were removed for that same reason.

I can't believe it's because any Forsaken find any AS a threat in TAR.
  #10  
Old 11-15-2009, 01:34 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quite plausible crue, in fact what I thought initially till I realized how easily Egwene got her hands on the angreal. And the oath Rod. It seems clear Mesaana was lying about the wards. So what's the game? To help preserve the loot for the FoL?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #11  
Old 11-15-2009, 02:25 PM
Yuri33 Yuri33 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 500
Yuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really niceYuri33 is just really nice
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
LoC, Prologue:
Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. "The White Tower now has guards and wards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everything four times each day. The Great Hold in the Stone of Tear is also warded, with a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it. I donít think it can be untied except by whoever wove it, and until then it is a trap for any other woman who can channel."
It's not clear whether the wards are simply alarms or something more (like traps). Either way, given the state of things in the WT under Elaida when the Seanchan attacked, it's likely that guarding the cache slipped by the wayside like so many other things in TV. In fact, given that Egwene got her to the cache in the middle of the attack, it would probably not have been guarded at all, and no one would be paying attention to that particular alarm activating.

As to why Mesaana hadn't yet stolen anything, the only reason I could think of was that she never checked such things herself, she just relied on BA reports, and assumed the cache was guarded as heavily as it was in LoC.
  #12  
Old 11-15-2009, 02:49 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,076
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

It was guarded quite well...if the entire Tower wouldn't have been under attack. The question becomes, Why the hell didn't any other AS think to go for the angreal while the Tower was under attack? No common sense there. Saerin's group was on the ground floor so it would have been easy for her to send a couple runners to the basement to get some heavy artillery.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #13  
Old 11-15-2009, 03:02 PM
Ozymandias's Avatar
Ozymandias Ozymandias is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,838
Ozymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to allOzymandias is a name known to all
Default

I'm guessing it just isn't worth Mesaana's while to take anything from the WT cache.

If she takes more than a few things, it'll become obvious. angreal and sa'angreal are rare enough that it'll be clear if they're missing. She can't really take all of them without a huge risk to being caught, and then she gives up her position in the Tower. I think we're underestimating the kinds of wards and guards there are on the storeroom. It may not be much, but if Mesaana thinks she can get to the stuff whenever she wants, she shouldn't be under any compulsion to go in before her time. Not when doing some might compromise her position.

Plus, when have the Chosen EVER tried to help one another? If she takes a half dozen sa'angreal, what good does it do her? She can only use the one, and she's not about to hand Graendal a powerful weapon. No, it seems to me it makes more sense for her to take one, maybe two, and leave the better part of it untouched for when she finally leaves the Tower for good.
  #14  
Old 11-16-2009, 03:34 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
The question becomes, Why the hell didn't any other AS think to go for the angreal while the Tower was under attack? No common sense there.
Good answer, that. I don't think any more is needed.
  #15  
Old 11-16-2009, 10:18 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
It was guarded quite well...if the entire Tower wouldn't have been under attack. The question becomes, Why the hell didn't any other AS think to go for the angreal while the Tower was under attack? No common sense there. Saerin's group was on the ground floor so it would have been easy for her to send a couple runners to the basement to get some heavy artillery.
I honestly don't know. At first I thought it was simply because Egwene could travel and the other WT AS couldn't. But if Saerin was on the ground floor, she should have tried at least. Even if she thought the SC would have gone there, it was still worth knowing where the enemy was located and what they wanted. But then one might as well ask why they didn't think to form circles. Circles would have held better against the damane for several reasons, including not having to worry about shields (and capture) and being able to weave faster than their opponents.

So it comes down to panic. The sort that grips men who have been well trained for years in peacetime when they land unexpectedly in the middle of a battle, I mean disaster. To be fair though, they seem to have done better than pearl harbor, thanks to Egwene. And in that wise, great writing by BS.

Yeah, WH was largely right. Except for the top down part. Tuon chose a bold and daring alternative -fitting the substance of Egwene's dreams- that rocked the WT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri33
It's not clear whether the wards are simply alarms or something more (like traps). Either way, given the state of things in the WT under Elaida when the Seanchan attacked, it's likely that guarding the cache slipped by the wayside like so many other things in TV
Thanks for the quote Yuri.

If the storerooms were guarded and the contents counted four times a day, how come they never missed the oath rod? I don't think there was any guards or wards for that matter. Mesaana was probably trying to keep the other forsaken from any power sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
If she takes more than a few things, it'll become obvious. angreal and sa'angreal are rare enough that it'll be clear if they're missing
Well AS have been taking them for years despite their rarity, and no one really seems to know who has what.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #16  
Old 11-16-2009, 10:23 AM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,076
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

They might want to get like an inventory system...AS seem to suck at doing so many things. Maybe a sign-out log? Its amazing the WT hasn't collapsed due to neglect in the last 3000 years.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #17  
Old 11-16-2009, 10:45 AM
Bonzi77 Bonzi77 is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Bonzi77 is a jewel in the roughBonzi77 is a jewel in the roughBonzi77 is a jewel in the roughBonzi77 is a jewel in the rough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
Hmmm, wrong thread perhaps?
Oops, yeah. Sorry
__________________
http://lifeofbonzi.blogspot.com
  #18  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:45 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
They might want to get like an inventory system...AS seem to suck at doing so many things. Maybe a sign-out log? Its amazing the WT hasn't collapsed due to neglect in the last 3000 years.
They do. Yet RJ seems a bit repetitive about this pilfering of stuff from the WT cache. Perhaps we'll get to see a lot of angreal and terangreal in the hands of the shadow at TG. And maybe Egwene will plug the holes. At least we can hope the attack will wake them up.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #19  
Old 11-17-2009, 11:47 AM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,076
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf
They do. Yet RJ seems a bit repetitive about this pilfering of stuff from the WT cache. Perhaps we'll get to see a lot of angreal and terangreal in the hands of the shadow at TG. And maybe Egwene will plug the holes. At least we can hope the attack will wake them up.
I know they officially have one...it just seems like its not a very good one. You'd think they'd have better organizational abilities than they apparently do.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #20  
Old 11-17-2009, 12:08 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
I know they officially have one...it just seems like its not a very good one. You'd think they'd have better organizational abilities than they apparently do.
Yeah, they have a battle ajah that knows nothing of battle, browns that think any weave they don't already know is "impossible".

Mesaana has had an easy time so far, but hopefully she'll be a bit more curtailed now. Its a hope. Maybe Suian will discover the horn gone and they'll finally realize they need to ward the loot.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
 

Tags
mesaana, white tower cache


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.