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  #1  
Old 12-01-2009, 01:43 AM
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Default exeunt Semirhage

Well, BS has confirmed that Rand did not have the DO's permission to access the True Power. Does this mean that Shaidar Haran didn't deliberately sacrifice Semi in order to push Rand over to the dark side? No, not really. I came across two things relevant to Semirhage's demise while searching for the hidden clue in books 4-6 that indicate the Dark One knew she was as good as dead as soon as she picked up the Domination Bands.

Firstly, there's Moghedien's explanation to Nynaeve of how the Domination Bands work. In particular, there's the feedback effect she mentions. The Band only works properly for a limited amount of time, after which it becomes possible for the man wearing the collar to take control of the link and Dominate the woman or women wearing the bracelet(s). This reversal becomes more and more likely the longer the Domination Band is used. Because Moghedien spilled her life story to Shaidar Haran during her "interrogation" in the vacuole, it is a safe bet that he knew about the feedback. The question at hand is whether or not anyone bothered to tell Semirhage. There is of course no definitive answer at this point but I am leaning towards "no" based on the way she played with Rand in the Domination Band like a child with a new toy. If she were trying to minimize the risks she could have locked the collar on him to keep him from channeling and done the rest of the torture herself without ever putting the bracelets on. From her behavior she either planned to keep him trapped for a brief enough amount of time that she didn't feel at all threatened by the possibility of feedback in the link or else she didn't know that the feedback was a potential risk.

The second comes from Semirhage's point of view in Lord of Chaos
-Threads Woven of Shadow-
"What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent's High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed."

Here we see foreshadowing and dramatic irony. Of course, it's nothing conclusive. Since Semirhage died believing Rand had the Dark One's blessing to use True Power, she believed herself sacrificed and betrayed, so the quote above is paid off regardless.

Neither of these would mean much by themselves, but if you put Moghedien's distrust of the Domination Bands next to Semirhage's musings about t'cheran strategy and Moridin's sha'rah, a pattern emerges. Especially since the outcome of her death matches both the t'cheran and sha'rah analogies almost perfectly: in killing her Rand comes to know despair and anguish of heart and damn near destroys the whole world because of it.

If I'm right, the remaining question is how exactly the Dark One had planned Semirhage's death since the True Power was not supposed to be involved. My guess is that the DO could not have known that killing a single woman, and a sworn enemy to boot, would cause Rand sufficient anguish to switch him into the pure destruction mode. Sure, everyone knew that he didn't like hurting women, but I don't think anyone but Moraine really knew how much it meant to him. Therefore, in order to put Rand into the proper state of mind the Dark One sent Semirhage to go torture him senseless. Her torture implement, the Domination Band, was designed to break down in a few weeks, allowing Rand to escape on his own as soon as his heart was sufficiently blackened by the experience. All Rand did by accessing the True Power was move up the time table.
  #2  
Old 12-01-2009, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless View Post
Well, BS has confirmed that Rand did not have the DO's permission to access the True Power.
Actually, he hasn't. The signing that reported him saying that was challenged by another person present at the signing, so Tamyrlin asked Brandon about that when they went on their little car ride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWS
Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: There was some confusion about Rand and the Dark One’s permission, so for clarification’s sake, did Rand have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power?

Brandon: I have not answered that. If anyone says that I have, I have not. What I have said specifically is, this is recording [meaning that Matt has audio of this conversation - Terez]: generally one must have the Dark One’s permission to use the True Power. Semirhage believed that the Dark One had betrayed her by letting Rand use it. It is good that you have asked this so I can make sure on the record that is the answer I have given.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:05 AM
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That's good to know. Of course, ambiguity about whether or not Rand had permission supports my "sacrifice" line of argument even more.

Several of the Forsaken have expressed concern that they're just pawns for the Dark One's power play, to be used and discarded, but as far as I can tell Semirhage is the only one who actually was deliberately sacrificed. I suppose you could make the case for Sammael, but I always read that scene as Moridin acting on his own to eliminate a potential rival rather than acting on orders from above.
  #4  
Old 12-01-2009, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by nameless View Post
Firstly, there's Moghedien's explanation to Nynaeve of how the Domination Bands work. In particular, there's the feedback effect she mentions.
One thing to remember about Moggy's explanation is that she explained the function in terms of one woman wearing both bracelets; She explicitly says the "problem" can be resolved -- at least for a time -- by sharing the bracelets with another woman.

Semirhage didn't have a problem with sharing the bracelets with Elza and probably wouldn't have much of a problem trading off with other women to avoid the feedback problem.
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  #5  
Old 12-01-2009, 11:12 AM
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Good to see Sanderson's clarification about what it is he said and did not say.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:57 PM
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Regarding Rand accessing the TP: I thought at the time that he got access to the TP via his 'link' with Moridin. Also, in tEoTW prologue, when Ishamael 'heals' Lews Therin of his madness (which I assume he did using the TP) - could this act of healing have perhaps created the link between them? Or at least be the point at which Lews Therin's soul was given the ability to tap the TP?

BS's quote is vague. His use of the word "generally", if used intentionally, means that it IS possible to use the TP WITHOUT the DO's permission. But how would anyone know about the existence of the TP? I think Rand subconsciously knows of the TP after Elan Morin's 'healing' from the above mentioned prologue, and that the healing is somehow tied in to how Rand was able to use it.
  #7  
Old 12-01-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Raen Mhaal View Post
Regarding Rand accessing the TP: I thought at the time that he got access to the TP via his 'link' with Moridin. Also, in tEoTW prologue, when Ishamael 'heals' Lews Therin of his madness (which I assume he did using the TP) - could this act of healing have perhaps created the link between them? Or at least be the point at which Lews Therin's soul was given the ability to tap the TP?

BS's quote is vague. His use of the word "generally", if used intentionally, means that it IS possible to use the TP WITHOUT the DO's permission. But how would anyone know about the existence of the TP? I think Rand subconsciously knows of the TP after Elan Morin's 'healing' from the above mentioned prologue, and that the healing is somehow tied in to how Rand was able to use it.
The forces of the light knew about the True Power in the AoL. It isnt something new that Rand is just now learning about. They had to know about it back then for LTT to be able to recognize it.

When Rand thinks back about Moridin and his usage of the power when they were fighting Sammael, he distinctly remembers that he felt nothing and recognizes that as the trademark signature of the True Power. LTT also recognized it when Rand was channeling it when Semirhage was torturing him. These recognitions lead me to believe that, while the True Power might not have been common knowledge to everyone, it wasnt a secret that the Light were not aware of.

As for the link between them, it could have been established when Ishmael healed Lews Therin, but I highly doubt it would be significant. AS are aware of ppl they have healed on some level, as Nyn demonstrated with Moraine in regards to having healed the two river folk in the past (egwene & perrin), and could sense them. So that does show that some sort of link is created between healer and healee when the One Power is used, so it wouldnt surprise me if such could occur with True Power healings. I highly doubt if that tenacious link would survive Lews Therin's suicide. I also doubt it would survive Ishmaels death and rebirth. The link between Moridin and Rand came about because of the crossed balefire streams. I doubt this is the first time the True Power has come in contact with the One Power, as I am sure has happened many times in the war of shadow as well as each time Rand battled Ishmael. I do not think it was merely the effect of the two powers colliding together.... but lean more towards it being two opposing balefires of different sources colliding.

In short, I dont think a OP balefire crossing another OP balefire would do it. I dont think a TP balefire crossing another TP balefire would do it either. I think it happened because of OP balefire crossing TP balefire.
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  #8  
Old 12-06-2009, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
The forces of the light knew about the True Power in the AoL. It isnt something new that Rand is just now learning about. They had to know about it back then for LTT to be able to recognize it.
Well, yeah, they drilled the Bore in an apparent attempt to reach "a new source of the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves." (Shadow Rising, ch. 26.

By the way, it ought to be "exit Semirhage." "Exeunt" is third person plural, "exit" third person singular. Yeah, I know, but what's the point of having a Latin minor from about a decade ago if I can't show off? God knows it's not useful for much else.
  #9  
Old 12-07-2009, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ieyasu View Post
The forces of the light knew about the True Power in the AoL. It isnt something new that Rand is just now learning about. They had to know about it back then for LTT to be able to recognize it.

When Rand thinks back about Moridin and his usage of the power when they were fighting Sammael, he distinctly remembers that he felt nothing and recognizes that as the trademark signature of the True Power.

I would argue that although the True Power was known in the AoL, it wasn't very mainstream. Most people didn't know about it. I would contend that the reason the voice in Rand's head recognized the alien power as the True Power was by eliminating possibilities. If you are tapping into a power source, and it isn't saidin, it has to be the True Power. There is no other alternative power source.
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  #10  
Old 12-07-2009, 01:15 PM
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The voice in Rand's head didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, in Knife of Dreams, when he reasoned out the whole balefire connection thingy. He knew what it was simply based on the fact that he couldn't sense Moridin in Shadar Logoth. And that was Rand, not Lews Therin (go read it).
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  #11  
Old 12-07-2009, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The voice in Rand's head didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, in Knife of Dreams, when he reasoned out the whole balefire connection thingy. He knew what it was simply based on the fact that he couldn't sense Moridin in Shadar Logoth. And that was Rand, not Lews Therin (go read it).

Exactly. Well put. If you are wielding balefire, summoning lightning from the heavens, throwing fireballs, working Healing, etc. and it isn't saidin or saidar being woven, then there isn't another alternative. (that we, the reader, or any of the characters are aware of up to this juncture)

Deductive reasoning ftw.
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  #12  
Old 12-07-2009, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe View Post
Exactly. Well put. If you are wielding balefire, summoning lightning from the heavens, throwing fireballs, working Healing, etc. and it isn't saidin or saidar being woven, then there isn't another alternative. (that we, the reader, or any of the characters are aware of up to this juncture)
Of course, there is the case where one hides ones ability to channel, and reverses weaves. That adds a bit to possible confusion.
  #13  
Old 12-07-2009, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tree Brother View Post
Of course, there is the case where one hides ones ability to channel, and reverses weaves. That adds a bit to possible confusion.
That definitely adds to the confusion. However, I believe Rand was pretty confident that the Wanderer wasn't channeling saidin. Sure, we have seen one case of a female channeling the opposite power; but for the most part, males channel their half, females theirs. The Wanderer could have potentially been masking his ability, and inverting his weaves. We know he was channeling the True Power. Dramatic irony and all that jazz. I'm fairly confident that Rand knew something was amiss, and possibly recognized the Wanderer using the True Power at Shadar Logoth.
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Old 12-08-2009, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The voice in Rand's head didn't recognize the True Power. Rand did, in Knife of Dreams, when he reasoned out the whole balefire connection thingy. He knew what it was simply based on the fact that he couldn't sense Moridin in Shadar Logoth. And that was Rand, not Lews Therin (go read it).
And where, pray tell me, did Rand get the phrase "their so-called True Power" from, if not from LTT?

It may of course be that Asmodean had talked about it, in which case Rand should have figured it out way before KoD. Actually, if Asmodean hadn't told Rand, then I am really wondering why he hadn't done that.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:54 PM
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here is the actual quote

Quote:
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon
When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.
Generally thoughts are in italics and they are attributed to either Rand or LTT specifically. However, in this case it is not entirely clear whether it is Rand or LTT making the statement in Rand's head.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason wolfbrother View Post
here is the actual quote...

...Generally thoughts are in italics and they are attributed to either Rand or LTT specifically. However, in this case it is not entirely clear whether it is Rand or LTT making the statement in Rand's head.
It's more clear in context (italics don't work in quotes, alas):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man’s face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse…[all of the previous is Rand's thoughts]

[This is Lews Therin]
He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. [back to Rand's thoughts] He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. [Lews Therin again] How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

[Rand] If you don’t know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. [still Rand] But I was aware of him, as well. [back to Rand's thoughts] It had been a strange sensation, as if he were… touching… the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction. to touch him again. [Rand] I think he saw my face, too.

[Rand's thoughts] Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now… ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him.

[Rand again...and we know this because...] When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can’t think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. [Rand's thoughts] Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father’s farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond’s Field as if he had grown up there. [and because....still Rand] Does that make any sense to you? [he's asking Lews Therin is his previous little monologue about the balefire incident made any sense. therefore, that was Rand's thoughts.]

[Lews Therin answers] Oh Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. [Rand's thoughts] He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.
This is funny, two construct people arguing about whether it's Rand or Lews Therin speaking.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:32 PM
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Lol yeah it is definitely clearer there with the full quote. thx Terez
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:38 PM
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LOL I just realized I missed Gonzo's post. It's okay though because he's just pretending to misunderstand construct theory again.

Thread tagged!
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wunderwaffe View Post
I would argue that although the True Power was known in the AoL, it wasn't very mainstream. Most people didn't know about it. I would contend that the reason the voice in Rand's head recognized the alien power as the True Power was by eliminating possibilities. If you are tapping into a power source, and it isn't saidin, it has to be the True Power. There is no other alternative power source.
This has always bothered me because of Moghedien's assumption that Halima was using saidin. But I suppose that Moghedien assumes that she is better informed about who is allowed to use it than Rand does - he just knows that it was used by the (many) Forsaken back in the day. It just seems odd that she would jump to something so impossible without yet having met any of the other transmigrated Forsaken.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:22 PM
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Seems pretty clear that RJ set up that bit about how Lews Therin's memories came more clearly and seamlessly to him now, directly after the part where he says "their True Power"...the obvious implication being that Rand knows what the True Power is from Lews Therin's memories which are now seeming like his own.
 

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