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  #1  
Old 12-09-2009, 04:47 PM
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Default i was thinking today about how mesanna may have gotten past the purdge

so all the AS re-three oathed on the rod then made a statement of someform or another that they were not black ajah.

we already know that there is major holes in how the 3 oaths work.

my thought is that she worded her way around the speak no lies oath. she has had considerably more years doing that sort of thing than most other AS even with her being locked away with the other forsaken.

technically she is not black ajah she is forsaken, or chosen depending on who's POV. so could that be the loop hole she wormed through?
she couldn't have said she does not serve the DO, that would have gotten her.

so what do you think? how did she sneak by?
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2009, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hippie-joe View Post
my thought is that she worded her way around the speak no lies oath. she has had considerably more years doing that sort of thing than most other AS even with her being locked away with the other forsaken.
Why would Mesaana have years of experience twisting the truth? She's been free to lie as much or as little as she felt like because she has never been bound by the Three Oaths -- probably has not been bound by a binder/oath rod at all.

Being bound by a Binder was semirhage's biggest fear and the attitude of the other Forsaken about binders is clearly negative. i.e. "Have you bound yourself like a criminal?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippie-joe View Post
technically she is not black ajah she is forsaken, or chosen depending on who's POV. so could that be the loop hole she wormed through?
Brandon's suggestion to think about ways of defeating the OAth Rod suggests that Mesaana has avoid being bound by ANY Oath, including the three oaths sworn before witnesses to clear herself of suspicion of being BA.

She may have sworn the Oaths, been bound by them, used the "I'm no lowly darkfriend, I'm an Elite servant of the DO, a Chosem" weasel wording to say she isn't Black Ajah, and then removed the Oaths either with a dreamed up Oath Rod in T'A'R or by pilfering the Oath Rod in the middle of the night to remove the Oaths. I seriously doubt that Mesaana would submit to being bound even temporarily by the Oath Rod.

Perhaps, Mesaana is immune to a Binder because she has been mind-trapped and the Cour'souvra blocks the effect of the Binder? She hasn't been forced to wear MOridin's colors as Moggy and Cyndane do, but she has been punished by Shaidar Haran, much as Moggy was before being mind-trapped.
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2009, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Brandon's suggestion to think about ways of defeating the OAth Rod suggests that Mesaana has avoid being bound by ANY Oath
I disagree. There's nothing about what he said to suggest that he meant anything other than that the Oaths are all about what the person swearing believes.

Joe, you should really keep up, you know. We were talking about this before the book came out.
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2009, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I disagree. There's nothing about what he said to suggest that he meant anything other than that the Oaths are all about what the person swearing believes.
Any HCFF, and most casual fans, know that defeating the Oaths is second nature to Aes Sedai, but Brandon said to think of ways to defeat the Oath ROD.
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  #5  
Old 12-09-2009, 10:05 PM
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So? The Oath Rod does what it does, and belief is a way to defeat it. He said we need to be thinking of ways to defeat it (in reference to Mesaana), and that is one way to defeat it that we are aware of - we won't likely be able to come up with anything else (no one has yet, and Brandon seemed to think that we could figure it out). Defeating the Oaths is second nature to Aes Sedai to an extent, but none of the other Blacks have been able to sidestep the Oaths that way, because they can't convince themselves that they aren't Darkfriends or that they aren't Black Ajah.
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  #6  
Old 12-09-2009, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
So? The Oath Rod does what it does, and belief is a way to defeat it. He said we need to be thinking of ways to defeat it (in reference to Mesaana), and that is one way to defeat it that we are aware of - we won't likely be able to come up with anything else (no one has yet, and Brandon seemed to think that we could figure it out). Defeating the Oaths is second nature to Aes Sedai to an extent, but none of the other Blacks have been able to sidestep the Oaths that way, because they can't convince themselves that they aren't Darkfriends or that they aren't Black Ajah.
If you can't see the distinction between defeating the oaths once bound and defeating the rod so that you are NOT bound to begin with, then I guess there's no point in trying to convince you.

It is the binding that reduces the lifespan, not the content of the oaths. The BA have "another trinity" because it is the number of oaths sworn that creates the ageless look, not the wording of or belief in the oaths sworn.

Defeating the Oath Rod so that no binding takes place is a different proposition than defeating a binding once it is in place.
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  #7  
Old 12-09-2009, 11:15 PM
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It seems like there are two separate issues.

1. Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai. We know she has been using the Mask of Mirrors to disguise herself, likely creating the ageless look as part of her disguise. I don't think there is any reason to believe she had even faced binding until the end of tGS.

2. At the end of tGS Egwene forces everyone to re-swear the oaths. At this point, Mesaana either

a.) took the oaths and, believing she is not a darkfriend, was able to get around the question. She would either still be bound or has managed to unbind herself.

b.) Was presented with the oath rod, asked to swear, and was able to avoid being bound through some means.

Right now, the "Mesaana was bound and evaded the lying oath when she said she wasn't a darkfriend because she doesn't believe she is one or had convinced herself she wasn't one" theory seems to be the most popular, partly because of what Brandon has said:

Quote:
Q: Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?
A: Oooh, you are tricky! I know what you’re doing. [For those that don't, this guy is trying to figure out if this is how Mesaana beat the Oath Rod. - Terez] I would say that, in general, yes they do consider themselves Darkfriends, though there are ways somebody would be able to get around that. I would say, yes, that that is not the sort of mental gymnastics that…it is very easy to convince yourself that you are not a Darkfriend.
and

Quote:
Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?
A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.
Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.

I thought it would be helpful to get the basics written out. Did I miss anything?
  #8  
Old 12-10-2009, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
If you can't see the distinction between defeating the oaths once bound and defeating the rod so that you are NOT bound to begin with, then I guess there's no point in trying to convince you.
This line sounds familiar. But in any case, I've made it quite clear why your logic makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
It is the binding that reduces the lifespan, not the content of the oaths.
What has that got to do with anything? Of course she's got a way to unbind herself - that's assumed. You still haven't proposed a plausible way that she could get around the Oath Rod other than by believing she's not a Darkfriend. Until you come up with that, you're just blowing hot air.
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  #9  
Old 12-10-2009, 12:53 AM
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One plausible but admittedly boring way is to kill and assume the identity of a newly sworn non-Darkfriend AS.
  #10  
Old 12-10-2009, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
...a plausible way ... Until you come up with that, you're just blowing hot air.
You mean until I come up with something you will accept as plausible.

I have suggested that Shaidar Haran mindtrapped her after her punishment and that protected her from the effects of the Binder so that she is not now and cannot be bound by the Binder. Asuggestion you've merely dismissed as not plausible without trying to refute it.
Quote:
Q: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.
Brandon affirmed that Mesaana could circumvent the First Oath if she believed in the distinction between 'DF' and "Chosen" and in the same answer implied we should be looking for a different answer; a way to defeat the Oath Rod (rather than a way to defeat the Oaths.)
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2009, 04:47 AM
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Other method: use the Mirror of Mists (inverted) on an unsuspecting AS who is not Black, to make her look like Mesaana. After she has retaken the vows (and has been crossed of the list as Mesaana's alter-ego), kill her and eat the body. Then that AS will be noted as having escaped (presumably Black), while Mesaana will be assumed to be in the clear. Some ketchup may be required.
  #12  
Old 12-10-2009, 07:56 AM
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Whatever means that Mesaana used, it was probably known in the AOL (along with countermeasures for it) since otherwise the Binder would not have been very effective. I can think of 3 means that I haven't seen mentioned previously:

1) A personal shield, inverted, to protect from weaves of spirit from having any effect - maybe something similar to the wards that Aes Sedai use on their dreams.

2) A ter'angreal, possibly from the stores in the White Tower, that protects against weaves.

3) A specific ward or other form of protection against compulsion, since that seems to be how the Oath Rod actually operates.
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  #13  
Old 12-10-2009, 08:23 AM
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I am not sure it is Compulsion. That seems to wipe out rather large portions of the mind. If it were Compulsion, then all the AS would be basically mindless ninnies, and ... uh-oh.

Horrified extra thought: what's that gonna do to Egwene?
  #14  
Old 12-10-2009, 09:04 AM
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Is it possible to hold the Rod without actually touching it? Yep. Inverting weaves so no one can see the thread of Air around it, the cushion of Air supporting it just out of range of your skin, then channeling into the Rod and saying the Oaths would seem another plausible explanation.
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  #15  
Old 12-10-2009, 09:09 AM
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Compulsion leaves traces as Rand and Nynaeve know. shields leave traces too. The warder bond does something to the person too without leaving a trace. So The binder could also do something to the body/mind and leave no trace.

Could we somehow deduce from the parts in the story when binders are used how they would work? Then we could try to find a way to beat the damn thing
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:12 AM
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Saucey good call, like an insulating layer, but the question is, does the one channeling spirit in the binder notice something about the person holding it?

There is the tightening sensation, that could be noticeable... But else??
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:38 AM
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SBC, the "air-glove" hypothesis makes sense. Though maybe the Dark One provides some kind of spiritual protection from binders.

Just realized, due to the life-shortening effects, the oath rod may have killed Mesaana had she actually been bound by it, if she is old enough. I don't remember her actual age but I'm sure its at least a couple of centuries, and maybe more. That's one trick no one can get away with LOL
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:42 AM
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Another interesting topic.

Does swearing on the oath rod just simply tells your body to fall over at a certain age (like 300, stronger channelers tend to get older) OR does it just makes your body age differently from the moment of binding?

AND how does the DO's "protection of aging" work? does it stop your body from growing older (bit like vampirism i guess) or is ther some other way?
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:07 PM
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Does swearing on the oath rod just simply tells your body to fall over at a certain age (like 300, stronger channelers tend to get older) OR does it just makes your body age differently from the moment of binding?
Check Terez' signature link. IIRC, the relevant RJ Q&A says that the Binder just reduces (halves?) the remaining life expectancy.

As for how the Binder works, compare the description of Verin's Suggestion weave settling into the captive AS and the Binder's effects settling into the newly raised AS. Compulsion doesn't necessarily have to scramble someone's brains; Greandal has just given Compulsion a bad reputation with her heavy handed over-use.
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Old 12-10-2009, 01:27 PM
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I know the forsaken didn't know how to physically circumvent the oath rod right after the bore was drilled. Otherwise Semirhage wouldn't have had to flee when presented with stilling or binding after her crimes were discovered. Whether they came up with something like the "air glove" after that but before the Lews Therin placed the seals, I don't know.
 

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