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Old 12-26-2009, 09:06 PM
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Default The detail from 4-6, and Ghenjei

I am excited about this plotline, and I wonder about some things that are prophesied to go down at Ghenjei. One of them might be a decent candidate for the detail from 4-6. I know I've brought it up before, but in general, I get a lot of scorn when I suggest that Mat really will become property of the Empress. I know it hasn't been discussed much in the time that I've been on Theoryland, but we're not assuming that Brandon has perfect searching skills here anyway.

In book 4, we learn that the property of the Imperial family is marked with raven tattoos on the shoulders:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 38 - Hidden Faces

Smiling with silent amusement, he removed his coat, unlaced his shirt and stripped it off. On either shoulder was the tattoo of raven and tower.

Most Seekers for Truth bore the ravens as well as the tower, but not even someone who dared steal a Seeker's plaque would have himself marked so. To wear the ravens was to be the property of the Imperial family. There was an old story of a fool young lord and lady who had themselves tattooed while drunk, some three hundred years gone. When the then Empress learned of it, she had them brought to the Court of the Nine Moons and set to scrubbing floors. This fellow might be one of their descendants. The mark of the raven was forever.
This little context story about the lord and lady is rather important, I think. Egwene has a dream about Mat in book 6:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER 15 - A Pile of Sand

Perrin came and stood before her, a wolf lying at his feet, a hawk and a falcon perched on his shoulders glaring at each other over his head. Seemingly unaware of them, he kept trying to throw away that axe of his, until finally he ran, the axe floating through the air, chasing him. Again Perrin; he turned away from a Tinker and ran, faster and faster though she called for him to come back. Mat spoke strange words she almost understood – the Old Tongue, she thought – and two ravens alighted on his shoulders, claws sinking through his coat into the flesh beneath. He seemed no more aware of them than Perrin had been of the hawk and falcon, yet defiance passed across his face, and then grim acceptance. In another a woman, face shrouded in shadow, beckoned him toward great danger; Egwene did not know what, only that it was monstrous. Several concerned Rand, not all bad, but all odd. Elayne, forcing him to his knees with one hand. Elayne and Min and Aviendha, sitting in a silent circle around him, each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him. Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One’s prison, shattering with his every step. She knew it. She did not need to see them to know.
There is a slight reference to it in the next book:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 17 - The Triumph of Logic

"Poor little mite," Corevin muttered, twisting to see whether the bandages would stay in place. He had a leopard and a boar inked on one arm, a lion and a woman on the other. The woman did not seem to be wearing much except her hair. "Sniveling, he was. Though he did brighten when Leral let him hold her hand." The men all looked after Olver like a gaggle of uncles, though certainly the sort no mother would want near her son.

"He’ll live," Mat said dryly. The boy was probably picking up these habits from his "uncles." Next, they would give him a tattoo. At least Olver had not sneaked out to run with the street children; he seemed to enjoy that almost as much as he did making himself a nuisance to grown women.
And of course, Olver's bad behavior is one of RJ's long-running themes, because he mostly picks up his behavior from Mat, whom he idolizes, and Mat blames it on the 'uncles'.

Then we learn a little more about the raven tattoos in book 8, with the Deathwatch Guard, who wear them proudly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 23 - Fog of War, Storm of Battle

According to the tales he had heard as a child, one of his ancestors, a noble, had followed Luthair Paendrag to Seanchan at Artur Hawkwing’s command, but two hundred years later, with only the north secure, another ancestor tried to carve out a kingdom of his own and ended sold from the block instead. Perhaps it was so; many da’covale claimed noble ancestors. Among themselves, at least; few of the Blood found such chatter amusing. In any case, Karede had felt lucky when the Choosers picked him out, a sturdy boy not yet old enough to be assigned duties, and he still felt pride in the ravens tattooed on his shoulders. Many Deathwatch Guards went without coat or shirt whenever possible, to display those. The humans, anyway. Ogier Gardeners were not marked or owned, but that was between them and the Empress.
This is particularly important because Mat formed a bond with the Deathwatch Guard in Knife of Dreams, as he collaborated with them to destroy the traitor army and get Tuon to safety. Some might say that Egwene's dream was metaphorically fulfilled then.

Also interesting is that, in the quote above about Mat's ravens, immediately after there is a woman beckoning him to monstrous danger. Could this be Moiraine? I can't think of any other way that Mat is more likely to get raven tattoos than at Ghenjei, where the 'Finns are tricksy. Maybe he will be desperate enough by then to ask them for something related to her....for her protection, or something else. Tuon would never have done it, despite the fact that she threatened to make him her cupbearer several times (and this would be more of the 'detail' in 'books and books' since 4-6). First, Semirhage suggests that Tuon buy him from Tylin, and Tuon thinks that's a wonderful idea:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 17 - Pink Ribbons

"The boy told you how he was injured," Anath said in frosty tones of command. "If you want him, then buy him and be done. The day has been long, and you should be in your bed."

Tuon paused, examining the long signet ring on his finger. It had been carved as a try-piece, to show the carver's skills, a running fox and two ravens in flight, all surrounded by crescent moons, and he had bought it by chance, though he had come to like it. He wondered whether she wanted it. Straightening, she stared up at his face. "Good advice, Anath," she said. "How much for him, Tylin? If he is a favorite, name your price, and I will double it."

Tylin choked on her wine and began coughing. Mat almost fell off his staff. The girl wanted to buy him? Well, she might as well have been looking at a horse for all the expression on her face.

"He is a free man, High Lady," Tylin said unsteadily when she could speak. "I ... I cannot sell him." Mat could have laughed, if Tylin did not sound as though she were trying to keep her teeth from chattering, if bloody Tuon had not just asked his price. A free man! Ha!
And thus were Mat and Tuon introduced. He thought several more times throughout that book about how she had wanted to buy him, including after he named her his wife. In the next book (with a 'Finn reference):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 3 - A Fan of Colors

“I cannot say what I will do after returning to Ebou Dar, Toy. I have not decided. I may have you made da’covale. You are not pretty enough for a cupbearer, but it might please me to have you for one. Still, you have represented certain promises to me, so it pleases me now to promise, as well. So long as you keep your promises, I will neither escape nor betray you in any way, nor will I cause dissension among your followers. I believe that covers everything necessary.” This time, Mistress Anan gaped at her, and Selucia made a sound in her throat, but Tuon appeared not to notice either woman. She just looked at him expectantly, waiting on a response.

He made a sound in his throat, too. Not a whimper, just a sound. Tuon’s face was as smooth as a stern mask of dark glass. Her calm was madness, but this made gibbering look sane! She would have to be insane to think he would believe that offer. Except, he thought she did mean it. That, or she was a better liar than he ever hoped to be. Again he had that queasy sense that she knew more than he did. Ridiculous, of course, but there it was. He swallowed a lump in his throat. A hard lump.

“Well, that does all right for you,” he said, trying to buy time, “but what about Selucia?” Time for what? He could not think with those dice pounding in his skull.

“Selucia follows my wishes, Toy,” Tuon said impatiently. The blue-eyed woman herself straightened and stared at him as though indignant that he had doubted that. For a lady’s maid, she could look fierce when she tried.

Mat did not know what to say or do. Without thinking, he spat on his palm and offered his hand as if sealing a bargain on a horse.

“Your customs are… earthy,” Tuon said in a dry voice, but she spat on her own palm and clasped his hand. “‘Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.’ What does that writing on your spear mean, Toy?”

He did whimper this time, and not because she had read the Old Tongue inscription on his ashandarei. A bloody stone would have whimpered. The dice had stopped as soon as he touched her hand. Light, what had happened?
And again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 29 - Something Flickers

“I have been ready for an hour, Toy,” Tuon drawled coolly. Casually lifting an edge of his cloak, she glanced at the red silk lining and eyed his coat before letting the cloak fall. “Lace suits you. Perhaps I will have lace added to your robes if I make you a cupbearer.”

His smile slipped for an instant. Could she still make him da’covale if she married him? He would have to ask Egeanin.
Light, why did women never make it easy?
And in Knife of Dreams:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 10 - A Village in Shiota

Tuon had so much spirit it seemed impossible it could fit into such a tiny woman. It was her silences that put a small damper on the day, more so than snakes or foxes. They were far away, and there was nothing to be done. She was right there beside him. and he had a great deal to do concerning her. She never alluded to what had happened with the three Aes Sedai. or to the sisters themselves either. She never mentioned his ter’angreal or the fact that whatever she had made Teslyn or Joline weave against him had failed. The night before might as well have been a dream.

She was like a general planning a battle, Setalle had said. Trained at intrigue and dissembling from infancy, according to Egeanin. And it was all aimed straight at him. But to what end? Surely it could not be some Seanchan Blood form of courting. Egeanin knew little of that, but surely not. He had known Tuon a matter of weeks and kidnapped her, she called him Toy. had tried to buy him, and only a vain fool could twist that into a woman falling in love. Which left anything from some elaborate scheme for revenge to. . . to the Light alone knew what. She had threatened to make him a cupbearer. That meant da’covale, according to Egeanin. though she had scoffed at the notion. Cupbearers were chosen for their beauty, and in Egeanin’s estimation, he fell far short. Well, in his own as well, truth to tell, not that he was likely to admit it to anybody. Any number of women had admired his face. Nothing said Tuon could not complete the marriage ceremony just to make him think himself home free and safe, then have him executed. Women were never simple, but Tuon made the rest look like children’s games.
And again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 11 - A Hell in Maderin

Tuon nodded thoughtfully. “Your customs are often very peculiar, Toy. You will have to teach me about them. I have learned some, but I must know the customs of the people I will rule in the name of the Empress, may she live forever.”

“I’ll be glad to teach you what I can,” Mat said, unpinning his cloak and letting it fall carelessly over the low back of his chair. “It will be good for you to know our ways even if you end up ruling a sight less than you expect to.” He set his hat on the table.

Tuon and Selucia gasped as one, hands darting for the hat. Tuon’s reached it first, and she quickly put it on the chair next to her. “That is very bad luck. Toy. Never put a hat on a table.” She made one of those odd gestures for warding off evil, folding under the middle two fingers and extending the other two stiffly. Selucia did the same.

“I’ll remember that,’ he said dryly. Perhaps too dryly. Tuon gave him a level look. Very level.

“I have decided you will not do for a cupbearer, Toy. Not until you learn meekness, which I almost despair of teaching you. Perhaps I will make you a running groom, instead. You are good with horses. Would you like trotting at my stirrup when I ride? The robes are much the same as for a cupbearer, but I will have yours decorated with ribbons. Pink ribbons.”

He managed to maintain a smooth face, but he felt his cheeks growing hot. There was only one way she could know pink ribbons had any special significance to him. Tylin had told her. It had to be. Burn him, women would talk about anything’.
And again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 37 - Prince of the Ravens

Pips stamped a hoof, impatient at standing in one place so long, and Mat patted his neck then scratched the scar forming on his own jaw. Tuon’s ointments had stung as badly as she had said they would, but they worked. His new collection of scars did itch yet, though. Tuon. His wife. He was married. He had known it was coming, had known for a long time, but just the same… Married. He should have felt… different… somehow, but he still felt like himself. He intended to keep it that way, burn him if he did not! If Tuon expected Mat Cauthon to settle down, to give up gambling or some such, she had another think coming. He supposed he would have to give over chasing after women, much less catching them, but he would still enjoy dancing with them. And looking at them. Just not when he was with her. Burn him if he knew when that would be. He was not about to go anywhere she had the upper hand, her and her talk of cupbearers and running grooms and marrying to serve the Empire. How was marrying him supposed to serve the flaming Empire?
It seems like it has been mentioned just a few too many times to be coincidence.

The da'covale system is doomed to fail, and so is the damane system. Mat would represent one, and Tuon the other.
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Last edited by Terez; 12-26-2009 at 11:08 PM.
  #2  
Old 12-26-2009, 09:13 PM
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I posted about this at Dragonmount, and someone said that I didn't really explain where I thought this was going. So here is some more explaining:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
The point is the truce. Tuon gave up any intention of meeting with Rand as an equal when she declared herself Empress. When she last saw Mat, shortly after she completed the marriage vows, they both gave each other vows that they would continue to be at odds on the battlefield. Tuon is by no means wounded after the Tower attack - she's gained the secret of Traveling. Rand's biggest military advantage just went out the window. The Tower was visibly damaged, the reputation of Tar Valon diminished, the proof of the Seanchan spread to the heart of Rand's east-north alliance, where Tuon claimed she would make her capital.

Tuon's pride against Rand's - whose do you think will win? Tuon has proven herself able to resist Rand's ta'veren pull, and unlike Egwene, she didn't need the Power to do it.

Mixed up in all this is Mat's pride. If anyone has the ability to wear those raven tattoos with pride, it's Mat. All through The Gathering Storm, he's worried about becoming husbandly....because he worries about Tuon's safety all the time, just as she wishes constantly throughout the book that Mat would come back to her, and take his rightful place among the Seanchan. She married to serve the Empire, after all. Mat would transcend the mark of ownership in some way, of course, but we saw with Tylin that, though he fought it, he eventually came to have some level of appreciation for Tylin's particular kink. Perhaps he will get a kick out of being owned. Or perhaps, like I suggested at the end of my Theoryland post, he will be the catalyst for the emancipation of the da'covale, while Tuon, a latent channeler, will be the catalyst for the emancipation of the damane. In any case, he will be a Deathwatch Guard with the tattoos, so perhaps he will become their leader. I can see the Deathwatch Guard remaining as an elite guard dedicated to the Empress, but not remaining property for long.

Also, it leads to Mat sporting an eye patch like a pirate (his price), and also going shirtless or at least sleeveless to show off his raven tattoos. Add the hat and the scarf and the ashan'darei, and all that's missing is the Harley.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:48 PM
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Interesting. I don't agree with it, but veryu interesting and well done.

What I think about the Ravens and the acceptence stuff is him marrying Tuon. He fought/fighting it, but will accept it in time. The ravens landing on him is him becomenig the Prince of Ravens by him marrying Tuon.

I don't have my books with me (at work atm) But something that could be added to your theory is the one dream (forget who's) of Mat giveing up half the light of the world for the other half. Could this be Mat getting the Seachan to stop their Return or stopping where they currently are by giving up being a Randlander and becoming property? Its late and I am still trying to wrap my head around the wording and stuff for it to make logical sence, so it might not be worded right.

An other more warped idea is, Mat snapping an a'dam around Tuon's neck. An emperess who is a damane would surely "plunge" Seachan into darkness (social upheaval if it gets out about women who can learn to channel) and save Randland from the Seachan at the same time.

His losing and eye, could this be metaphorical, where he turns a blind eye to Seanchan ways, more specifically how they treat women who can channel. He does have a soft spot for women.
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wolframbohr2 View Post
Interesting. I don't agree with it, but veryu interesting and well done.

What I think about the Ravens and the acceptence stuff is him marrying Tuon. He fought/fighting it, but will accept it in time. The ravens landing on him is him becomenig the Prince of Ravens by him marrying Tuon.
I might buy that if it weren't for the markings of the Imperial property, the shoulders in the dream, and the countless references to Tuon making him her da'covale.

The 'give up half the light of the world to save the world' most likely references him losing an eye at Ghenjei, maybe as a price. The 'save the world' bit might refer to him being bound to Tuon, but it might also refer to Moiraine.
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:43 AM
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I always thought the dream about the ravens was fulfilled when Mat went through the ter'angreal gateway in Rhuidean. The two ravens are Thought and Memory, the ravens that whispered secrets to Odin when he was hanged from the World Tree. The secrets Mat learned in exchange for his hanging caused him to become a general and lead men into battle and death, which he is now resigned to despite being defiant at first.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:00 AM
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I had a thought more a question. I am not well versed in the Seachan structure, but don't know if it was mentioned at all either.

Can Mat still be married to Tuon if he is made property? The Emperess can do what ever she wants (that's a given). But Seachan also have some very strange rules. And would it fit her sence of "right and worng" doign that now after they ar emarried?

Let me explain. (no books so this is from memory) Tuon thinks "bady" about those who chop off body parts os damane to punish them. To me she views it more of a failing of the training not training correctly. There is also the bits about her training horses and and the sence I get from her is, she is strict but "fair" or "good" or "responcible" when training the women/animals. That she morals and ethics when it comes to these things and not abuse them. That any abuse is the result of the failing of the trainer and "lowers their eyes". If she made Mat property now that they are married would there be an internal conflict in her of yes I can do this, but is means I failed at controling my husband?

If she had to "divorce" Mat to make him property or making him property automatically "divorces" him are there other "rules" that could aply that even as Emperess she can not stop, like his execution (hanging in a silk bag since I "assume" he is automaticaly of the Blood, but who knows with the Seachan structer)

Yes, as Emperess she can do what she wants, I agree with that 100%. But would her own moral code/ethics allower her to do that now that they are married? Would Mat stand for it? What status would their children be? (if they have any) She would want to continue the line, can she marry again if she is still married but Mat is property? GAH, DAMN the Seachan and all their rules!!!!

You gave me some very insteresing thigs to think about. I might not agree, but I love thinking about theories and make it a point to try and support them, in my head atleast, ones I don't support. After all you can't fully challenge something if you don't understand it.

If I could rep I would give you some, but you rose a few points in my list of awsomenesses.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by nameless View Post
I always thought the dream about the ravens was fulfilled when Mat went through the ter'angreal gateway in Rhuidean. The two ravens are Thought and Memory, the ravens that whispered secrets to Odin when he was hanged from the World Tree. The secrets Mat learned in exchange for his hanging caused him to become a general and lead men into battle and death, which he is now resigned to despite being defiant at first.
There is that too, but again, it's the fact that the ravens on the shoulders have a specific meaning in WoT that makes me think otherwise, and the fact that that particular meaning was referenced several times during Mat and Tuon's courtship, beginning with the first time they ever met. And then there is the fact that Mat acted like a Deathwatch guard in spirit through the entire ordeal, working alongside them to free Tuon.

To bohr, technically all Tuon would have to do would be to emancipate Mat, and so long as she provides him a means of supporting himself (remember Egeanin and Domon), then it's all good. But the mark of the raven is forever. And they are already married....

Like I said, it's quite possibly a catalyst for the emancipation of all da'covale, just as Tuon is the obvious catalyst for the emancipation of the damane.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
To bohr, technically all Tuon would have to do would be to emancipate Mat, and so long as she provides him a means of supporting himself (remember Egeanin and Domon), then it's all good. But the mark of the raven is forever. And they are already married....
She gets off cheap then. All she would need to do is buy him some dice and a cup.

It would be interesting if it goes in this direction.

For the Odin thing, it would hold more true if ravens were thought about in that context in Randland. They are only thought about that way in Seanchan. Since it was Egwene who had that dream she would not know the significance of ravens metaphoricly except for how they are viewd where she is at, as spies and carrion eaters. Yes, dreams can have all sorts of images, but the ravens were asked about to RJ and he gave the reasons why the Seachan use them as symbles that way and not that way in Randland. So there is not any real info int eh books, besides the Odin thing to make them be viewed that way.

It very well could be, and we may never know this. It seems to me there will be a lot of loose ends and RJ wanted it that wy. It seems he liked us theorizing about the books. The books would loose a lot of appeal if we knew the answeres to everything.

Can you imagin in 500 years if these books were read like Shakesphere is today and people write term papers on them for the unaswered questions. We could end up as footnotes!!!
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:48 AM
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Is it not enough that becoming Prince of the Ravens fulfills the dream about ravens settling (but not tattooing) themselves on his shoulders? Additionally, I don't believe someone can be both Prince of the Ravens and property of the Empress at the same time.

Quote:
TGS, A Halo of Blackness:
Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself.
Prince of the Ravens is one of the High Blood, and you can't be of the Blood and and be property (da'covale or so'jhin) at the same time.

Additionally, there is no evidence that the Prince of the Ravens can be head of the Deathwatch Guard as well. There's already a very capable person in that position, regardless.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
TGS, A Halo of Blackness:
Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens. He needed to be raised to the High Blood, shave his head and learn the proper way of living. That all seemed a shame to her—for reasons she could not explain to herself.
I just took notice to something here, but I may be reading this wrong. Tuon would be shamed for making Mat conform to Seachan ways? This gives me something more to think about.
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Old 12-27-2009, 02:07 AM
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The conflict of making Mat conform to Seanchan culture/ways versus Mat's inherent idiosyncrasies was a running theme throughout TGS, of which the above quote was one instance. In fact, it had it's beginnings in KoD:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
KoD, As if the World were Fog:
Toy commanding an army seemed very odd. He was charming at times, even witty and amusing, but often a buffoon and always a rapscallion. He had seemed very much in his element as Tylin’s pet. Yet he had seemed in his element among the show’s performers, too, and with the marath’damane and the two escaped damane, and in the hell. That had been such a disappointment. Not even one fight! Events later had not compensated for that. Getting swept up in a street brawl was hardly the same as seeing fights in a hell. Which admittedly had been far more boring than rumor heard in Ebou Dar had made it seem. Toy had displayed an unexpected side of himself in that street brawl. A formidable man, though with a peculiar weakness. For some reason, she found that strangely endearing.
It's Tuon coming to grips with the fact that she does love Mat, and part of that love stems from the behavior she's already observed. It's stretching to think that her "shame" here had anything do with her intentions to turn Mat into property.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Yuri33 View Post
Is it not enough that becoming Prince of the Ravens fulfills the dream about ravens settling (but not tattooing) themselves on his shoulders?
Like I said, it might be, if not for the tons of other references to Mat being made da'covale, and the special significance of the ravens on the shoulders in the WoT world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri
Additionally, I don't believe someone can be both Prince of the Ravens and property of the Empress at the same time.
Technically, it's not supposed to be possible. Tuon would have not married someone that was da'covale. But she already married him, and the mark of the raven is forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri
Additionally, there is no evidence that the Prince of the Ravens can be head of the Deathwatch Guard as well. There's already a very capable person in that position, regardless.
There is, but the suggestion had more to do with Mat's dedication to Tuon than anything else (besides the dream about the raven tattoos). There is nothing to indicate that the First Prince of the Ravens could NOT be head of the Deathwatch Guard.
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  #13  
Old 12-27-2009, 04:21 AM
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I have given this some more thought, boring here at work. Could the ravens be simular to the hawk and eagle to Perin. For him this was 2 different women. For Mat could it indicate 2 women that are the same women, Tuon? The one is Tuon, the other is Fortuna or what ever he name is now, still Tuon to me. But in Seachan culter they would be 2 different people.

I know its a stretch, but it does fit. I am not of any mind on this at all, which is why I am thinking of alternatives. Not cause I don't like something, but I think every possibility needs to be looked at, then weighed. EGAD, the White in me is coming out, LOL.

The claws piercing the skin is a good argument for tattoos.


For the shame, I said for her to make him conform to Seachan ways, not making him property. I was carefull to word it that way cause I am not sold on that part, but it does leave me an out, cause conforming would mean excepting being property if that does happen. (very Aes Sedia of me ) It would also fit for her and training. For example, horses, yeah you do break them, but do you want to break their spirit? By making him conform she could break his spirit and it is that spirit that she is in love with. The more I think about it, the more to me it seems that Mat is a high spirited horse to Tuon. (And a mighty good piece of horse flesh at that!!!)

But is it "real" love if it is fortold? I don't expect an answere here. This is part of a larger theological debate with prophecies in general real and in books. Prophecies must be fullfilled, so do the people have real choice? Are they "realy" responcible/accountable for their actions? After all if they don't do them, then prophecy is not fullfilled. Does man have free will? Or must they follow the script that is written for them? Sorry for getting off track.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolframbohr2 View Post
I have given this some more thought, boring here at work. Could the ravens be simular to the hawk and eagle to Perin. For him this was 2 different women. For Mat could it indicate 2 women that are the same women, Tuon? The one is Tuon, the other is Fortuna or what ever he name is now, still Tuon to me. But in Seachan culter they would be 2 different people.
Yeah, I thought about that too. It is not so much that the explanation is too easy, but that the alternative explanation has so much merit that makes me consider otherwise.

I don't really like the idea of Mat being property any more than Mat would (or any more than he likes the idea of anyone being property - it's one of his problems with Seanchan society, along with damane). But Mat has been shown to handle such horrible implications with a good sense of humor; he did it when he was Tylin's love slave, when Tuon offered to buy him, and with every jab she gave him about the cupbearer thing. And the situation has the potential to unlock a good number of key problems with the truce, which basically boil down to Mat's and Tuon's determination to stick to their respective guns in the Seanchan vs. Randland dispute.

As to the 'real love' question - I am interested to see how, exactly, Mat gets those tattoos at Ghenjei. If he finds himself in a position to ask the Eelfinn for something again (he did, after all, manage to get six answers to four questions from the Aelfinn, and an extra thing from the Eelfinn before, and this time he will be prepared with his music, fire, and iron), then what could he ask for that would result in the tattoos? It seems likely that he will be in a position to ask, because the eye is a likely price. We have always assumed that he would ask for Moiraine's freedom, but whether Mat asks by the agreement or by breaking the rules, it seems likely that he will be able to ask for more than one thing.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:52 AM
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I like your idea more for the fact that it would make some great reading if it is ever written. Seems to me to be more of after the Last Battle type story.

For me, the loosing of the eye physicaly just never sat rigth with me for some reason. Why? I don't know. Maybe its cause I don't want Mat to look ugly, hehe.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:58 AM
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Ugly? He will be a pirate. That is awesome. He is already uglified from the hanging scar anyway. But the eye just fits with too many things. Min saw his eye on a balance scale. Egwene saw him with his hat pulled low over his eyes and blood streaming down his face. The Aelfinn said he would give up half the light of the world to save the world. Odin lost an eye. Rand lost a hand. I'd say you can probably bank on Mat losing that eye.

Also, there will be implications of what is to come with the tattoos after the Last Battle as much as anything else. Perhaps there will be some momentous decisions made beyond the truce, as to what compromises Mat can force about da'covale and damane, but it's not as if everything will be peachy by the end of the last book.
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Last edited by Terez; 12-27-2009 at 06:00 AM.
  #17  
Old 12-27-2009, 09:17 AM
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I don't know why you would be getting so much scorn about the idea, Terez, as it was discussed way back when we were still on InsideTheWeb and GeoCities, and at that point, it seemed to be mostly agreed that Mat being tattooed, at the very least, with the ravens was very likely to happen, if he didn't actually become property. Now it seems even more likely to me.

That's the problem with that particular comment though, there have been so many discussions that can't even be recovered now (so far as I know) from the hamsters at InsideTheWeb and GeoCities that it is unknown whether the detail from tSR through LoC really has been discussed or not and I have a feeling that people are dismissing old ideas because of that.

I like your idea though, and I think that there is definitely some support for it coming to pass. Maybe he will get the ravens as a cruel joke from the Aelfinn (if we don't get to eat you, we'll make sure you belong to someone to keep you from ruling your own destiny or some such), or as part of the price or just markings to show a cheat so that he won't ever be bargained with again... but it would be far funnier to have Mat literally become both a noble and property since he is so... touchy... about both.
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2009, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bryan Blaire View Post
I don't know why you would be getting so much scorn about the idea, Terez, as it was discussed way back when we were still on InsideTheWeb and GeoCities
Maybe because none of these people actually pay attention to the WoT boards any more? Aside from the occasional exception, of course, such as yourself at this moment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB
I like your idea though, and I think that there is definitely some support for it coming to pass. Maybe he will get the ravens as a cruel joke from the Aelfinn (if we don't get to eat you, we'll make sure you belong to someone to keep you from ruling your own destiny or some such), or as part of the price or just markings to show a cheat so that he won't ever be bargained with again... but it would be far funnier to have Mat literally become both a noble and property since he is so... touchy... about both.
And that's exactly the point. I feel like Tylin was a prelude to Tuon in more ways than one. And of course you have all that, just because Tuon is a noblewoman and probably the most powerful of noblewomen on the planet to boot. She joked about making him property, threatened him, but at this point it something that she hasn't seriously considered in a long time, probably since the first time she met him. But Mat's entire plotline is a series of one subjugation after another, and it's part of his character to overcome them all with his pride intact. If anyone can transcend Tuon's notion of property, it's Mat.

The thing is, Mat doesn't have any idea that the ravens are a mark of property. He associates them with the Deathwatch Guards, and he only met the Deathwatch Guards briefly. If he gets the tattoos, that is where his mind will go. But to Tuon, the mark of the raven is forever, and it marks the property of the Imperial family. The fact that she can channel, if she chooses, is easily justifiable for Tuon - so long as she chooses not to channel, she is not a marath'damane. But if Mat were to get those tattoos, it would be much more difficult for her to justify, I think.
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:17 PM
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LOL. I did a search on raven tattoos at Yuku to find my old posts about them, and this is the first thing I found:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB
As far as the Mat Dreaming, I don't think that he's going to be getting any raven tattoos. He's already got enough ravens on his person at all times now, and he's claimed by the Queen of them. I think he's good and fulfilled with regards to that particular Dream.
I miss the rollin emote.
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Old 12-27-2009, 07:48 PM
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Here is another one. I remember that one fondly because it was the first time I ever managed to catch Callandor being sloppy. I simply didn't get any real reaction at all to that mention, from anyone.

And WH seems to agree with me here, but that was before Knife of Dreams came out, and he seemed to think then that Tuon would be the one to give him the tattoos. This there was this one. And another older mention.

That was all I could find on Yuku - the rest seemed to be discussion about Carlinya. Only discussed 6 times 8 years.
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da'covale, detail from 4-6, ghenjei, raven tattoos, so'jhin


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