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Old 12-30-2009, 01:40 AM
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Default Rand's new sword

For those who don't know, Brandon confirmed to a select few who had read the book in advance that Rand's new sword was Justice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWS
Email correspondence with Brandon 21 November 2009 - Kathana Trevalaer reporting, via Luckers at Dragonmount

Rand gets a new sword in chapter one. It has been confirmed by Kathana Travaeler that this is Justice through direct email correspondence with Brandon and Maria.
Brandon apparently did not intend this information to be publicly announced, someone posted about it on the Dragonmount forums before the book was released. We all assumed that it had been revealed later in the book, so it was considered a spoiler for book 12. So, we only got a small bit more info on it in the books, and not the identity of the sword:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 37 - A Force of Light

He stood, reaching for the sword which leaned against his clothing chest. The black scabbard, with its lacquered red and gold dragon, sparkled in the light. Such a strange weapon those scholars had found beneath the submerged statue. The sword felt so old. Was Rand wearing it today as a symbol of something? A sign, perhaps, that he was riding to battle?

"You're going after her, aren't you?" Min found herself asking. "Graendal."

"I have to fix what problems I can," Rand said, pulling the ancient sword from the sheath and checking the blade. There was no heron mark, but the fine steel blade glistened in the lamplight, showing the undulating lines of its folded metal. It had been Power-forged, he claimed. He seemed to know things about it he did not share.
And Brandon continued to dodge the issue on tour, only really giving one more hint about where it was found:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

Q: What’s up with Rand’s sword? Was it Lews Therin’s?
A: There are some really good theories out there on the message boards and I don’t have anything to add on this.

I followed up on where it was found, basically ‘In water, under a statue, not near Falme’.
Of course, we had learned about the sword in Chapter 1, which was posted on tor.com about a month or two before the book release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 1 - Tears from Steel

He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand—and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding. . . .

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories—but Rand’s own.
Really, we had enough here to determine that it was Justice, because the fact that Rand remembered something centuries old was 'odd' (and specifically not from Lews Therin's own memories), so the circumstances under which he saw it previously had to be odd. Falme is the only thing that really qualifies, since the sword was recently unearthed. If Rand saw it in his own lifetime, then it couldn't have been the real sword. Therefore, it was Justice.

The only things speaking against it being Justice were:

1. The fact that Rand was reluctant to tell anyone, even Min, what the sword was. Why wouldn't he tell Min? She was at Falme. But that is explained by Rand being overly paranoid about Min thinking he is crazy, to the point of being woolheaded, even.

2. The dragon scabbard. Why would Hawkwing have a dragon on his scabbard? He couldn't even channel. But the answer to that is in the BWB. Hawkwing's rise to fame was on his campaign against Guaire Amalasan, and the Consolidation began after Guaire was captured:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/TP
TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 11 - The Second Dragon and the Rise of Artur Hawkwing

Caught by surprise, Amalasan’s forces came very near collapse in the first half-hour. Amalasan could have rallied them and turned the battle his way - he had done as much before - but Hawkwing and his horsemen drove straight for Amalasan’s banner, with them the Aes Sedai, and Amalasan was taken. (Given his ability to channel, stories of a man-to-man duel between him and Hawkwing must be discarded; Hawkwing himself always denied it.) Once the news began to spread, Amalasan’s army did collapse.
So, was there actually a duel? I could believe it, since Hawkwing was ta'veren and there were Aes Sedai there to shield Amalasan. So, either Hawkwing took Amalasan's sword as a trophy, and named it Justice, or he had a dragon scabbard on his sword simply to signify that he had defeated the false Dragon (like Rand's Dragon Scepter).

So then I begin to suspect that Brandon said 'there are a lot of good theories out there' because some people thought it was Amalasan's sword. It could well be both.

As to where it was found, the bits about it being found 'in water, under a statue, not near Falme' immediately brought my mind to Hawkwing's stedding, where Perrin and Egwene were captured by Whitecloaks in book 1, where a spring rose out of the remnants of Hawkwing's statue, and indeed, there is some nice foreshadowing to that effect:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 30 - Children of Shadow

At the base of the hill he studied the massive, flat rock outlined against the sky, jutting out the slope almost at the crest. There was an odd familiarity to the way the top of the huge slab seemed to form irregular steps, three up and one down. He climbed the short distance and felt across the stone, walking along it. Despite the weathering of centuries he could still feel four joined columns. He glanced up at the step-like top of the stone, towering over his head like a huge lean-to. Fingers. We'll shelter in Artur Hawkwing's hand. Maybe some of his justice is left here.
So I think we know where it was found. The only question is, why didn't the 'scholars' who gave it to Rand have any idea what they were giving him? They should have known.

Also, what are the implications of the sword being Justice? It has been argued before that this was a reference to Justice (which was ridiculous before book 12):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Eye of the World

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

(from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon
.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)
Should we also consider this passage differently?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 6 - The Hunt Begins

"Neither the first nor the last," Moiraine said. "Callandor will be but one fulfillment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he 'shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf? What does it meant that he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains? And some are so obscure that he may already have fulfilled them, although I am not aware of it. But, no. Callandor is far from the end of it."
I'd say probably not, but it is something that should be considered.

Also, could the 'blade of light' refer to Justice, which 'shone like a mirror' in Hawkwing's hand?
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:22 AM
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Good questions.
As for the answers: read and find out.
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Old 12-30-2009, 04:55 AM
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LOL, I'm sure there are more details to dig out of the series on Justice before the next book comes out. I found a few; maybe you guys can find some too.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Brandon apparently did not intend this information to be publicly announced, someone posted about it on the Dragonmount forums before the book was released. We all assumed that it had been revealed later in the book, so it was considered a spoiler for book 12. So, we only got a small bit more info on it in the books, and not the identity of the sword:
First, I disagree with you here.

Rand is wearing the sword Justice when he goes to dispense justice to Graendal. That's pretty blatant, put like that, isn't it?

Some other possible cases from the books that you missed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 40, The Web Tightens
"I will give you justice then, Rand al'Thor," she said.
True, it wasn't Morgase who gave him Justice, but that's a detail, surely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 38, Hidden Faces
Only after he was back in the corner did she move close enough to pick up what he had set there. Never taking her eyes or the crossbow away from him, she lifted it up where she could see. A small ivory plaque bordered in gold, engraved with a raven and a tower. The raven's eyes were black sapphires. A raven, symbol of the Imperial family; the Tower of Ravens, symbol of Imperial justice.
Interesting, in the light of the title of the next book. Probably a coincidence, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH, Chapter 16, An Unexpected Encounter
Beside the wide arched gate into the city, a long platform displayed, on spikes twenty feet above the ground, the tarred but still recognizable heads of over a dozen men and two women who had fallen afoul of Seanchan justice. Above them hung the symbol for that justice, a headsman's slant-edged axe with the haft wrapped in an intricately knotted white cord.
Interesting that the symbol for Seanchan's justice is an axe, not a sword.
  #5  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:54 AM
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Was Rand wearing the sword when he met Tuon, or was he specifically not wearing it for truce reasons? I'm just curious if there's anything about the sword that would be significant to the Seanchan.

Otherwise, I don't really know why it would be introduced at this point in time.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
So, was there actually a duel? I could believe it, since Hawkwing was ta'veren and there were Aes Sedai there to shield Amalasan. So, either Hawkwing took Amalasan's sword as a trophy, and named it Justice, or he had a dragon scabbard on his sword simply to signify that he had defeated the false Dragon (like Rand's Dragon Scepter
).

If he was shielded by AS, why wouldn't they also bind him with flows of Air?

I could see him easily taking it off Amalasian as a war prize but a dual seems a bit far fetched.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:23 AM
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Rand was wearing the sword when he met Tuon.

And there might not have been enough AS left to do more than shield Amalasan. If they had decreased the strength of the shield so that they could bind him, and he had then broken free and stilled the lot, they would have been worse off than if they kept him limited to using his body.
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Old 12-30-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Rand was wearing the sword when he met Tuon.

And there might not have been enough AS left to do more than shield Amalasan. If they had decreased the strength of the shield so that they could bind him, and he had then broken free and stilled the lot, they would have been worse off than if they kept him limited to using his body.

I guess...though it doesn't really take that much effort to bind someone.
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
I guess...though it doesn't really take that much effort to bind someone.
No, but they may have noticed that they were just barely keeping him from channeling. When shielding someone, you can feel it when he tries to break free. More relevantly for this point: you can feel how close to succeeding he is.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
No, but they may have noticed that they were just barely keeping him from channeling. When shielding someone, you can feel it when he tries to break free. More relevantly for this point: you can feel how close to succeeding he is.
Not only this, but tower custom requires that the circle that shields a man use its full strength.

Quote:
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 52 - Weaves of the Power
Logain jerked up onto his knees, snarling, and she embraced saidar and had him wrapped securely in flows of Air in the space of a heartbeat. The sisters shielding him had all their strength directed into that—another custom; you must use every bit of your strength to shield a man—but several could split their weaves, and one might have diverted part to him if they thought he might harm her. She did not want to risk him being injured.
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:47 PM
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One of the things that I don't understand about the sword is when Rand would have received it. Since he's apparently just recently started carrying it around, I assume he got it between the time of his encounter with Semirhage and the present. Am I wrong about that?

If that's the case, though, during that time Rand was supposedly hopping from one hiding place to another:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 1 - Tears from Steel

This building was one in a long line of manors, estates and other remote hiding places Rand had used during the last few weeks. He'd wanted to keep moving, jumping from location to location, following the failed meeting with Semirhage. He'd wanted time to think, to consider, and hopefully time to confuse the enemies that might be searching for him. Lord Algarin's manor in Tear had been compromised; a pity. That had been a good place to stay. But Rand had to keep moving.
So when during all this hiding would Rand have bumped into the scholars who gave him the sword? Seems kinda odd...
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Old 12-30-2009, 03:51 PM
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Anytime he checked up on his schools. The only true scholars in Randland, excepting the Brown Ajah.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:12 PM
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There are also scholars among the Sea Folk.

Davian, Hawkwing might have talked the Aes Sedai into letting him duel with Amalasan. That's the only way it makes sense. Seems far-fetched, but we are talking about a ta'veren here.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:24 PM
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I think its more believable that he simply took Amalasian's sword/scabbard as a war prize after defeating his army/capturing him.

An actual dual is so problematic that its not really belieavable.
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:33 PM
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Old 12-30-2009, 07:47 PM
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That was a different story.
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Old 12-31-2009, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane Darkwulf View Post
Anytime he checked up on his schools. The only true scholars in Randland, excepting the Brown Ajah.
But that's the point - Rand was hiding. Why would he pop into one of his academies if he didn't want anyone to know where he was?
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:36 AM
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But that's the point - Rand was hiding. Why would he pop into one of his academies if he didn't want anyone to know where he was?
He could have been gone again in 5 minutes. Maybe he considered knowing what was going on to be worth the risk.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:42 AM
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I agree with the Marie's question about when Rand would have had the opportunity to be presented with Justice. They had to have been hopping around fairly hurriedly, since by the time they settled in at the manor house in Arad Doman (which was at least 3-4 weeks after Semi's attack), they hadn't had much time to question Semi:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BS/RJ
TGS, Tears from Steel:
"Rand, that . . . creature is a stone," Nynaeve said, turning to him. "She's yielded barely a single useful sentence despite days of questioning! All she does is explain how inferior and backward we are, with the occasional aside that she's eventually going to kill us all." Nynaeve reached up to her long, single braid—but stopped herself short of tugging on it. She was getting better about that. Rand wondered why she bothered, considering how obvious her temper was.
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Old 12-31-2009, 05:00 AM
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They might have gotten on board with the Aiel and the Legion of the Dragon who were camped a few miles west of Caemlyn, until Aviendha left with them in Knife of Dreams. Rand didn't encounter those groups until after the Semirhage incident. The Hawkwing stedding is not all that far west of Caemlyn.
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