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  #1  
Old 01-13-2010, 08:11 AM
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Default A somewhat interesting connection

We have speculated before that this might be an example of past life memories for Perrin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 4 - Shadows Sleeping

Only a dream, he thought, shivering from the cold, and with that everything shifted.

He stared into the mirror, a part of him not comprehending what he saw, another part accepting. A gilded helmet, worked like a lion's head, sat on his head as if it belonged there. Gold leaf covered his ornately hammered breastplate, and gold-work embellished the plate and mail on his arms and legs. Only the axe at his side was plain. A voice – his own – whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles. No! He wanted to take it off, throw it away. I can't!
The axe bit is what is suggestive of past life memories. But I have never realized that there might be some significance to the gilded lion's head - well, I think we have considered it, but never before made a connection to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 3- Pale Shadows

Mat muzzily considered the song he had been singing and grimaced. No one had heard "Dance with Jak o' the Shadows" since Aldeshar fell; in his head, he could still hear the defiant song rising as the Golden Lions launched their last, futile charge at Artur Hawkwing's encircling army. At least he had not been babbling it in the Old Tongue. He was not as juicy as he looked by half, but there had indeed been too many cups of oosquai.
The last king of Aldeshar, Joal Ramedar, was Ishara's grandfather, so it seems that the Golden Lions might have been a predecessor to the White Lion of Andor. Perhaps Perrin is Joal Ramedar reborn? Aldeshar was the last nation to fall to Hawkwing, and Mat remembers being Culain, Ramedar's general (from Eelfinn memories). There is also some hint that Mat is Aemon reborn, though the fact that he remembers being Aemon at the Battle of Aemon's Field (before the 'Finns) has always been attributed to Old Blood (with good reason). It is a bit harder to attribute Perrin's 'memories' (if they are that) to the Old Blood, though.

Also, Hawkwing's initial treatment of Aldeshar was cruel, and he stripped all of the nobles of their titles and estates, exiling them to various corners of the empire. Broken Crown, anyone? I know it's not geographically correct, but it could make sense. Sort of.
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Last edited by Terez; 01-13-2010 at 08:14 AM.
  #2  
Old 01-13-2010, 08:20 AM
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The Broken Crown is obviously that of Cairhien, which Rand broke and then remade when he returned with his bevy of tame AS.
  #3  
Old 01-13-2010, 12:10 PM
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I've always wondered about that helmet when I read the part, but it's such a random detail and too far from Mat's memory in TFOH that I forgot it by the time I got there.

If Perrin is a Hero of the Horn like I suspect (and Mat aswell), then this might indeed be a hint at one of his rebirths. It might not be Joal Ramedar, but Aldeshar is very likely the background. Perhaps a general or a previous king.
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Old 01-13-2010, 12:58 PM
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Holy connection T! Seriously, that's some fancy thinking. I would never have put the two together...

I have a feeling that right or wrong about either perrin or mat - it won't be directly addressed. Just kind of one of those neat things that RJ slipped in to reward smarty pants like you with more questions.

But still, cool.
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  #5  
Old 01-14-2010, 07:40 AM
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It might not be directly addressed, but there are still some interesting things going on, with that thought in mind. Perrin has been raising the banner of Manetheren in the Two Rivers. If Mat really is Aemon reborn, or even a direct descendant of Aemon - it's one of the two - then there is a certain amount of irony in the fact that he didn't really want to go home to the Two Rivers when the Whitecloaks were there (in his defense, he didn't know about the Trollocs, and he did feel obligated to go, which is why he asked about it in Aelfland, and he was told that he would die if he did not go to Rhuidean).

Anyway, Perrin went home and it just so happens that his family was the one completely wiped out by the Trollocs, and he becomes a hunter of Trollocs. Despite his general easy-going attitude and reluctance to be confrontational, he has remained adamant about the Two Rivers being independent from the throne of Andor. He doesn't like being a lord, and he doesn't like the banners, and he was happy to give up the banner of Manetheren, but he feels like he owes it to the Two Rivers to stake that claim of independence.

If Perrin is Joal Ramedar reborn (it would have to be a king, with all that gilded armor), then there are two interesting parallels here:

1. The Seanchan. Joal Ramedar was the last king to give in to Hawkwing, and the Seanchan are Hawkwing's spawn, come to claim his Empire after 1000 years. Perrin gave up his Red Eagle banner to the Seanchan (and of course Mat, who is either the last king of Manetheren reborn or a direct descendant, is First Prince of the Ravens, second only to the Empress herself in power, just as soon as he decides to take his place). But Perrin did not give up his claim of independence to the Seanchan, and he spoke for himself and all of the remaining free lands when he said that they mean to keep their lands.

2. Elayne. She and a few others (including Gawyn and Rand!) are descendants of Ishara, sometimes through several lines; Dyelin, for example, has thirty lines to Ishara, and Elenia implied that Elayne and Morgase had thirty-one (Elayne's and Rand's children would be particularly strong in claim if Rand's descent was known).

Of course, Perrin's past life (if it is that) won't be taken into account when he confronts Elayne, nor will Mat's ancestry or possible past life be taken into account when the whole Manetheren business is sorted out. I just think that it's funny that Elayne, Rand, Morgase, Elenia, all of them might be descendants of Perrin's past life. Myth and legend are known for the complicated family trees, and we already knew RJ was good at it. This is just another tidbit.
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  #6  
Old 01-14-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Anyway, Perrin went home and it just so happens that his family was the one completely wiped out by the Trollocs, ...
Well, no. They were eaten by Padan Fain, and then the Whitecloaks made it look as though Trollocs had been responsible. Message brought to you by the anti Trolloc-defamation league.
  #7  
Old 01-14-2010, 08:33 AM
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Eaten? Maybe...I thought just tortured and killed. Eaten? Blech.
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  #8  
Old 01-14-2010, 09:07 AM
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Yeah, they weren't eaten, since there was something to bury. And Gonzo is right of course, but the point is that Perrin's campaign against the Trollocs was inspired by the deaths of his family.
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  #9  
Old 01-14-2010, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yeah, they weren't eaten, since there was something to bury.
To be fair, that only means they weren't completely devoured.
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Old 01-14-2010, 03:47 PM
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Well, presumably, what was left was recognizable, unlike the bits that Perrin took from the Trolloc cookpots.
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  #11  
Old 01-14-2010, 06:13 PM
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Old 01-15-2010, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Well, presumably, what was left was recognizable, unlike the bits that Perrin took from the Trolloc cookpots.
I don't think that the Black Whitecloaks were already so far gone that they would have joined in, and Fain on his own probably couldn't eat as much as 3 dozen Trollocs would manage.
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDR 4
Only a dream, he thought, shivering from the cold, and with that everything shifted.
He stared into the mirror, a part of him not comprehending what he saw, another part accepting. A gilded helmet, worked like a lion's head, sat on his head as if it belonged there. Gold leaf covered his ornately hammered breastplate, and gold-work embellished the plate and mail on his arms and legs. Only the axe at his side was plain. A voice his own whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles. No! He wanted to take it off, throw it away. I can't! There was a sound in his head, louder than a murmur, almost at the level of understanding.
"A man destined for glory."
He spun away from the mirror and found himself staring at the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. He noticed nothing else about the room, cared to see nothing but her. Her eyes were pools of midnight, her skin creamy pale and surely softer, more smooth than her dress of white silk. When she moved toward him, his mouth went dry. He realized that every other woman he had ever seen was clumsy and ill-shaped. He shivered, and wondered why he felt cold.
"A man should grasp his destiny with both hands," she said, smiling. It was almost enough to warm him, that smile. She was tall, less than a hand short of being able to look him in the eyes. Silver combs held hair darker than a raven's wing. A broad belt of silver links banded a waist he could have encircled with his hands.
"Yes," he whispered. Inside him, startlement fought with acceptance. He had no use for glory. But when she said it, he wanted nothing else. "I mean..." The murmuring sound dug at his skull. "No!" It was gone, and for a moment, so was acceptance. Almost. He put a hand to his head, touched the golden helmet, took it off. "I... I don't think I want this. It is not mine."
I don't trust the authenticity of dreams in which the dreamer is confused, and the Forsaken are present.

But by all means, don't mention Lanfear showing up in your OP. Surely that has nothing to do with anything.
  #14  
Old 01-31-2010, 05:15 PM
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It probably has nothing to do with the matter at hand, since so far as I'm aware, Forsaken don't have the ability to plant thoughts in your head. Perrin escaped Ishamael, and then Lanfear found him, but what's in between seems to be pure him.
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:49 PM
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I remember on 13th Depository, Linda stated that Perrin had a parallel with Alexander the Great, who supposedly wore a Lion's Helm. That is somethng to think about.
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Old 01-31-2010, 09:57 PM
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There is more of a parallel between Hawkwing and Alexander than between Alexander and Aldeshar's last king, but that is the way RJ likes to do things.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
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... so far as I'm aware, Forsaken don't have the ability to plant thoughts in your head. ...
What else would you call controlling someone's dreams?

IIRC, Moggy explicitly mentions Egwene shaking off a dream she'd tried to trap her in, which the reader experienced from Egwene's POV as her own thoughts and feelings.

That scene was much like the full scene you lifted the "Lion Crown" imagery from.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
What else would you call controlling someone's dreams?
Controlling their dreams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
IIRC, Moggy explicitly mentions Egwene shaking off a dream she'd tried to trap her in, which the reader experienced from Egwene's POV as her own thoughts and feelings.
So, you think Moghedien invented Egwene's fantasies about Gawyn and Galad, or the scene with her father, or with Siuan and Leane (whom Moghedien had not yet met)? Moghedien trapped Egwene in her own thoughts; she did not plant thoughts in her head. Moghedien even wondered about where Egwene led her (the Two Rivers), and what place it might be, what the banners might be for. She had obviously never seen it before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
That scene was much like the full scene you lifted the "Lion Crown" imagery from.
It wasn't anything like it.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
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IIRC, Moggy explicitly mentions Egwene shaking off a dream she'd tried to trap her in, which the reader experienced from Egwene's POV as her own thoughts and feelings.
Which could have been done simply by tying up TAR around Egwene, thus not letting her leave wherever she happened to be at the time.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
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Which could have been done simply by tying up TAR around Egwene, thus not letting her leave wherever she happened to be at the time.
Well, Egwene did manage to escape where she was the first time; she was in the Tower when Galad showed up. She fled to the Two Rivers, and Moghedien followed her and caught her again. The first time, it was thoughts of Galad because she had just met with Elayne, who had recently run into Galad in Amadicia, and managed to escape from him with Luca (they ran into Galad again later in Samara, just inside the border of Ghealdan). She notes that Galad is acting as he does in her dreams, different enough from the reality of Galad to make him tolerable, and thinks that she dreams more often of Gawyn. She thought of Siuan and Leane because she was in the Keeper's study. She fled to the Two Rivers because it was where she felt safe. Next, she forgot completely about her dreams of Galad, and dreamed of her parents and Gawyn, who was her husband (and whom she had just been thinking of), and almost got caught in that dream, too. She then fled to her own body, where she was safe, and continued her dream about Gawyn.
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