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  #1  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:42 AM
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Default minor clue about Mesaana?

I noticed a throwaway quote that might be a clue about Mesaana, that I have not seen in any of the discussion threads about her identity (don't have the exact quote, so it is paraphrased):

From The Gathering Storm, chapter 24 In Darkness

Sheriam, after checking her tent for hidden intruders, finding it empty, thinking about why she joined the black ajah, hoping for power but not happy about the supposed glory about living during the Dark One's possible Day of Return -

"I wish I had just hidden myself away among the Brown Ajah"

So, who shows up a minute later, of course. Mesaana, who I think has hidden herself in the Brown Ajah.

This may be nothing or it may be a big clue hidden in plain sight. If so, it would drastically narrow down the candidates for her hidden identity. Combined with her previous profession, though, I think it reduces the pool of available aliases considerably.
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  #2  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:57 AM
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Danelle is brown ajah and is described as having big blue eyes just as mesaana is described as having blue eyes

so yeah this could be a clue
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:23 PM
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Very odd, WSB - you're right.

But, why would Sheriam know where Mesaana hid and not Alviarhin, as the Head of the BA?
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  #4  
Old 01-27-2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Very odd, WSB - you're right.

But, why would Sheriam know where Mesaana hid and not Alviarhin, as the Head of the BA?
I don't think Sheriam knows who Mesaana is disguised as. I think the clue was just portrayed by the omni point of view as a stray thought passing through Sheriam's mind.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:23 PM
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Danelle has been a leading candidate for Mesaana's alter ego since Fires of Heaven.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:45 PM
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Default This really changes nothing known about Mesaana's possible cover identity

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
I noticed a throwaway quote that might be a clue about Mesaana, that I have not seen in any of the discussion threads about her identity (don't have the exact quote, so it is paraphrased):

From The Gathering Storm, chapter 24 In Darkness

Sheriam, after checking her tent for hidden intruders, finding it empty, thinking about why she joined the black ajah, hoping for power but not happy about the supposed glory about living during the Dark One's possible Day of Return -

"I wish I had just hidden myself away among the Brown Ajah"
Sheriam seems to think that the Black Ajah members within the Brown Ajah, have it easier for some reason. Relative safety, no pain to take in?

This line also possibility could be referring to Verin; who Sheriam was later surprised had ratted her and the whole Black Ajah out on her deathbed to Egwene in the White Tower (tGS, Ch.39 'A Visit from Verin Sedai').

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm, Chapter "Sealed to the Flame" on page 680 hardback version
"Prove it, Sheriam. The woman who came to me in the Tower gave me your name as a leader among the Black Ajah."

Sheriam met Egwene's eyes. "Ah, then," the woman said softly, eyes mournful. "Who was it, now, who came to you?"

"Verin Mathwin."

"Well, well," Sheriam said, settling back on her chair. "Never expected it of her, I'll say. How did she get past the oaths to the Great Lord?"

"She drank poison," Egwene said, heart twisting."

"Very clever." The flame-haired woman nodded. "I could never bring myself to do such a thing. Never indeed...."
Ironically, Verin of the Brown Ajah willing killed herself, while Sheriam didn't want to die to aid a larger cause in the end. Sheriam misjudged Verin Sedai and the real role of the Brown Ajah:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm, Chapter "A Visit From Verin Sedai - Egwene pov with Verin speaking
"Every woman in the Brown," Verin said, "seeks to produce something lasting. Research or study that will be meaningful. Others often accuse us of ignoring the world around us. They think we only look backward. Well, that is inaccurate. If we are distracted, it is because we look forward, toward those who will come. And the information, the knowledge we gather...we leave it for the. The other Ajahs worry about making today better; we yearn to make tomorrow better."

One difficulty it seems about Sheriam supposedly knowing who Mesaana is, and that she is within the Brown Ajah itself; is Sheriam does not recognized who the mysterious Chosen was, who commanded her to deliver all of the Salidar Aes Sedai sleepweavers in a short time span of three days. If one believes that mysterious Chosen was Mesaana then, why didn't Sheriam recognize her rasping voice?


When Alviarin interacted with Mesaana just before Shadar Haran came into the scene, Mesaana's voice was cloaked. But when mysterious Chosen figure meets Sheriam in tGS (Ch.25 page 380) her voice is not cloaked with a "chimes" sound it was "rasping".

In addition, Sheriam does later lose a finger, which implies that this mysterious Chosen figure is working within the Tower. Why? Because Sheriam claimed Leane had a sleepweaver and it was lost (pg. 381), however Mesaana should have known if a sleepweaver ter'angreal was found in Leane's possession. Thus, Sheriam lost a finger because Mesaana believed Sheriam was lying to her.

I do wonder if Sheriam ever directly interacted with Mesaana at all, within the White Tower before she went to Salidar? Its an open question, indeed. Doubtful, I think too, based on the mysterious Chosen figure's comments to Sheriam as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gathering Storm, Chapter 25 "In Darkness" - Sheriam pov with mysterious female Chosen figure
"Stop your babbling," the voice growled. "You are well placed in this camp, I understand?"

"Yes, Great Mistress," Sheriam said. "I am the Keeper of the Chronicles."

The figure sniffed. "Keeper to a ragged bunch of would-be Aes Sedai rebels. But that is no matter. I have need of you.

...(skipped a bunch of paragraphs to pg. 381 below)

With that, the Chosen opened a gateway right in the middle of the room, then vanished through it. Sheriam caught a glimpse of the familiar tiled hallways of the White Tower on the other side.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
So, who shows up a minute later, of course. Mesaana, who I think has hidden herself in the Brown Ajah.
Maybe Mesaana is within the Brown Ajah, yet that much has been suspected for quite a while now. Based on the dresses she favored and worn during a scene with Alviarin many books earlier.



As for other minor hints where Mesaana has been in the series, there are these two:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven book, Chapter 9 “Memories” - Morgase pov with Lini speaking
“Gaebril spends most of his nights with you, but Alteima has nearly as much of his time. He spreads himself thin with the other six. Five have rooms in the Palace. One, a big-eyed young thing, he sneaks in and out for some reason all swathed in a cloak, even in this heat. Perhaps she has a husband.
Lini had not known that the Forsaken were loose at the time, nor that the likely identity of Gaebril's big-eyed young thing is Mesaana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fires of Heaven book , Chapter 12 “An Old Pipe” - Gareth Bryne pov
Bryne frowned. Whitecloaks? What would the Children of the Light want with Mara? He would never believe she was a Darkfriend. But then, he had seen a baby-faced young fellow hanged in Caemlyn, a Darkfriend who had been teaching children in the streets about the glories of the Dark One—the Great Lord of the Dark, he had called him. The lad had killed nine of them in three years, as near as could be discovered, when they looked like turning him in. No. That girl is no Darkfriend, and I’ll stake my life on it. Whitecloaks were suspicious of everyone. And if they took it into their heads that she had fled Lugard to avoid them . . .
Too bad Gareth Bryce didn't understand that one of Mesaana's common tactics was to educate young people in the glories of the Dark One.

Mesaana did aid Rahvin coming to power within Andor, by helping the creation of riots and pushing the mood of the people against the Queen Morgase. But we don't know for sure that Mesaana is Danelle nor hiding within the Brown Ajah just yet. Danelle is only a top suspect of who Mesaana has been posing as.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:21 PM
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The cloaked 'lover' of Rahvin (she might have actually been one of his toys) was most likely the young Red sister that was in the Palace at the time. Since Mesaana can Travel, I'm not sure how you came to the retarded notion that it was her.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Sheriam seems to think that the Black Ajah members within the Brown Ajah, have it easier for some reason. Relative safety, no pain to take in?
I took it to mean instead of joining the Black Ajah.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:31 PM
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I thought I gained a unique spot of honor on your distinguished ignore list, Terez?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The cloaked 'lover' of Rahvin (she might have actually been one of his toys) was most likely the young Red sister that was in the Palace at the time. Since Mesaana can Travel, I'm not sure how you came to the retarded notion that it was her.
Rahvin does not let the young Red Ajah Aes Sedai move around the Caemlyn alone;, as he told Lanfear when questioned about her presents in there.

Whereas, the "big-eyed young thing, he sneaks in and out for some reason all swathed in a cloak, even in this heat" is not the same individual in all likelihood as the young Red Ajah Aes Sedai in Caemlyn.

As base of a tongue as ever, Terez...
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
I thought I gained a unique spot of honor on your distinguished ignore list, Terez?
You did. I click 'view post' every now and then when I am bored, but for the most part, it's nice to have the peace of mind that comes from not having to address all of the little problems with nearly every post you make. It's as if you assume that none of us have a brain or know what actually happened in the books, and weave conspiracy theories from out-of-context quotes and logic leaps, and then expect us to all fall for it. Most of the time, I'd rather just pretend that you don't exist and let other people have the headache.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix
Rahvin does not let the young Red Ajah Aes Sedai move around the Caemlyn alone;, as he told Lanfear when questioned about her presents in there.
He sends her out alone in the prologue in the very same passage where he meets Lanfear, under Compulsion which, by the way, he does not tell Lanfear about. Also......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix
Whereas, the "big-eyed young thing, he sneaks in and out for some reason all swathed in a cloak, even in this heat" is not the same individual in all likelihood as the young Red Ajah Aes Sedai in Caemlyn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
PROLOGUE - The First Sparks Fall

Lounging in a gilded chair in his shirtsleeves, one booted leg over the padded arm, Rahvin smiled as the woman standing before the fireplace repeated what he had told her. There was a slight glaze in her large, brown eyes. A young, pretty woman, even in the plain gray woolens she had adopted for disguise, but that was not what interested him about her.

...

"Take her to the street by back ways," Rahvin said, "and leave her there. She is not to be seen."

"It will be as you say, Great Master," Elegar said, bowing where he knelt. Rising, he backed from Rahvin's presence, bowing and pulling the woman along by one arm. She went docilely, of course, her eyes still fogged. Elegar would ask her no questions. He knew enough to be well aware that there were things he did not want to know.

....

"One of your play pretties?" a woman's voice said behind him as the carved door closed. "Have you taken to dressing them like that?..... ...You were always a pig, Rahvin, but seldom a fool. That woman is Aes Sedai. What if they miss her? Do you also send out heralds to announce where you are?"

"Channel?" he sneered. "She is not strong enough to be allowed outdoors without a keeper. They call untutored children Aes Sedai when half what they know is self-taught tricks and the other half barely scratches the surface."
1. That last is a disparaging remark about the girl's strength in the Power, not a statement that he does not allow her outside alone.

2. He did, in fact, send her out alone. She was escorted, but the men were told to leave her in the street. She was under heavy Compulsion, so there was no reason to have her guarded.

3. The men who escorted her out were told to make sure she was not seen. This is consistent with the cloak.

4. She has big eyes.

The funny thing is, I didn't even remember most of the details in that passage. I didn't remember that it was mentioned that she had big eyes at all, or what exactly Rahvin said to Lanfear about her. I didn't look it up until just now. Yet, I came to the correct conclusion about the passage, while you came up with a retarded theory, apparently with the passage right in front of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix
As base of a tongue as ever, Terez...
I will ever be one to call it like I see it, and not mince words. Be thankful that I'm content to ignore you most of the time. No hard feelings, or anything; I don't have a problem with you as a person. I just can't handle your apparent intellectual dishonesty. I don't think that your problems with English are quite enough to explain your issues. But I'll consider it to be a mental disorder and leave it at that.
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  #11  
Old 01-27-2010, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Neilbert View Post
I took it to mean instead of joining the Black Ajah.
Interesting, that maybe true too.

However, I'm not sure how that would of squared with Sheriam's prior own motivations for having "the power to punish those her spited her". (tGS, Ch.25 page 379). Sheriam seems to of only wanted to avoid "pain" as a motivation for being Brown instead of Blue Ajah as cover. She never truly understood the Brown Ajah's true purpose and orientation.


Sheriam in some ways is similar to Asmodean as a darkfriend, who would not take enough pain willingly to break Lanfear's shield place on himself. In Sheriam's case, she dislikes the punishments the Chosen and others have placed on herself, yet she never thought to end the pain caused by the Black Ajah upon everyone else, by exposing herself and telling the truth. Sheriam was too self-centered.

Verin on the other hand, let someone else take her life's work and willing paid the price for it. Death. So that the Black Ajah would be exposed fully to someone who could do something about it. Egwene.

Wonder if Verin's soul was re-born in the 3rd Constant again? As the Heros of the Horn were?
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I will ever be one to call it like I see it, and not mince words.
Brittle ego as was ever true, too....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I just can't handle your apparent intellectual dishonesty.
Look at yourself, for once....


I have not willingly been dishonest with anyone in this forum. Your simply incorrect about any supposed cause and are fishing for intentions which do not exist.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Look at yourself, for once....
I do it all the time. I even use mirrors when I masturbate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix
I have not willingly been dishonest with anyone in this forum.
You also don't read good. I said your apparent intellectual dishonesty.
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Old 01-28-2010, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
This line also possibility could be referring to Verin; who Sheriam was later surprised had ratted her and the whole Black Ajah out on her deathbed to Egwene in the White Tower (tGS, Ch.39 'A Visit from Verin Sedai').
It could, but there is no literary ooomph in referring to someone is such a subtle way 15 chapters in advance, when it also could be referring to someone 2 paragraphs in advance. Especially when the latter's identity is cloaked in mystery and the subject of endless speculation.

Quote:
One difficulty it seems about Sheriam supposedly knowing who Mesaana is, and that she is within the Brown Ajah itself; is Sheriam does not recognized who the mysterious Chosen was, who commanded her to deliver all of the Salidar Aes Sedai sleepweavers in a short time span of three days. If one believes that mysterious Chosen was Mesaana then, why didn't Sheriam recognize her rasping voice?

When Alviarin interacted with Mesaana just before Shadar Haran came into the scene, Mesaana's voice was cloaked. But when mysterious Chosen figure meets Sheriam in tGS (Ch.25 page 380) her voice is not cloaked with a "chimes" sound it was "rasping".
Like I mentioned to Ishara, I don't think Sheriam knows where Mesaana is hiding.


Quote:
In addition, Sheriam does later lose a finger, which implies that this mysterious Chosen figure is working within the Tower. Why? Because Sheriam claimed Leane had a sleepweaver and it was lost (pg. 381), however Mesaana should have known if a sleepweaver ter'angreal was found in Leane's possession. Thus, Sheriam lost a finger because Mesaana believed Sheriam was lying to her.
I'm not sure about the relevance of whether Mesaana thought Sheriam was lying or not. As it turns out, everyone was supposed to believe that Leane had the Sleepweaver anyway, including Sheriam, since Siuan was borrowing it despite having lost her privileges of usage of that ter'angreal. So, she wasn't lying.

Quote:
I do wonder if Sheriam ever directly interacted with Mesaana at all, within the White Tower before she went to Salidar? Its an open question, indeed. Doubtful, I think too, based on the mysterious Chosen figure's comments to Sheriam as well.
Sheriam also mentioned that another Chosen ordered her to set up Egwene. That is what I am curious about.

Quote:
Maybe Mesaana is within the Brown Ajah, yet that much has been suspected for quite a while now. Based on the dresses she favored and worn during a scene with Alviarin many books earlier.
She is also suspected by many of not being in the Brown Ajah. Considering the abundance of quotes being used to advance various candidates for Mesaana's identity, I thought this one might be useful as well.

Quote:
As for other minor hints where Mesaana has been in the series, there are these two:
Lini had not known that the Forsaken were loose at the time, nor that the likely identity of Gaebril's big-eyed young thing is Mesaana.
Too bad Gareth Bryce didn't understand that one of Mesaana's common tactics was to educate young people in the glories of the Dark One.
Mesaana did aid Rahvin coming to power within Andor, by helping the creation of riots and pushing the mood of the people against the Queen Morgase. But we don't know for sure that Mesaana is Danelle nor hiding within the Brown Ajah just yet. Danelle is only a top suspect of who Mesaana has been posing as.
Terez provided quotes disproving Mesaana as the young big eyed thing. Also, Mesaana has not been free from the Bore for 3 years by the time Bryne had that thought, so that darkfriend was NOT influenced by Mesaana. And do you have any proof that Mesaana was acting in Andor? The riots have apparently been going on since the series beginning (the winter that preceded the Wintersnight trolloc attack), reliably before Mesaana was free.
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  #15  
Old 01-28-2010, 10:49 AM
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I can't help but wonder if Mesaana's oft-revealed skirts are but a red-herring (maybe even an intentional one on her part, not just RJ's)...and speaking of reds, I would oh so like to have Silviana's eye color described.
  #16  
Old 01-28-2010, 06:06 PM
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What was that famed coward Mesaana doing appearing in the rebels camp without hiding her strength anyway? Seemed a bit bizarre to me, at the very least, preposterously arrogant.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:28 PM
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She wanted to wow Sheriam, and there was no reason to hide her strength. There was no one else close enough to sense her, and even if there was, she was disguised.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
She wanted to wow Sheriam, and there was no reason to hide her strength. There was no one else close enough to sense her, and even if there was, she was disguised.
As a character that I had presumed to be quite thoroughly cautious, I thought it was a bit of a departure. Besides, there's always someone around.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:44 PM
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She's cautious in the Tower, where she is hidden, but there was no real reason for her to hide her strength when she visited Sheriam. Sharina is stronger than Mesaana, and she's a novice.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:25 PM
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She's cautious in the Tower, where she is hidden, but there was no real reason for her to hide her strength when she visited Sheriam. Sharina is stronger than Mesaana, and she's a novice.
I suppose, on the face of it. There's still needless risk involved, particularly with a skittish bunch of Aes Sedai. There can only be a tiny few stronger than Mesaana in the camp, if there is any apart from Sharina.
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