art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-21-2010, 07:13 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default TGS : military review

Is something I'm not going to do alone. I hope others can do justice to this thread and do so without revealing too much. There may be some die hard RJ fans out there who intend to read all three books as one and we shouldn't kill all the joy for them...

Despite my misgivings, TGS had its moments off and on the battlefield. Maybe there wasn't enough. Enough battles, intrigue and action as we expected but I think the shocks more than made up for any lack in those areas.

There were several battles in TGS. Moving across Altara, Arad Doman and Saldea and the climaxing with the Battle royal between the Seanchan and the AS at Tar Valon. At least three major confrontations (though KoD had five or more) so the intensity could be considered a little less.

The plot also left enough gaps that we are left wondering what was happening in some many regions at the time of these battles. So many hints. One of the best is the fact that both Ishamael and Demandred are involved in efforts at building and directing a (the) shadow army(S) for TLB. Even the DO must be aware how the two men feel about each other. Why increase the likelyhood of them striking sparks? And what do they intend to do with those armies under their commands?

Tuon orders the long awaited strike against the AS. Making things a hundred times more difficult for the forces of light at TLB! And of course one of her major reasons for this attack is the situation on the seanchan homeland. How bad are the reports that TUon is receiving? Given the title of the next book, I expect we'll find out a lot more about this.


And Rand. A very precarious situation. He has lost the only hope he ever had of holding off the DO. And he himself is more of a tool for the shadow than anything else.


In comparism to RJ's last book (KoD) I think TGS left us flat in some areas. Rand's use of new weaves in halting the trolloc attack was a nice touch I think many of us loved. We may have missed that kind of action. And then we had Mat's fight with multiple swordsmen and his romance with the DoNM. They were rather nice. Tylee'swordplay wasn't enough to redress the balance IMO.

Perhaps BS lost an opportunity to make Egwene a much better character. While she fought well against the Seanchan, her use of the OP left much to be desired, at least IMO. She doesn't seem like the kind of character that could face one of the forsaken. She has always had her weaknesses but not since she went to the waste have they been so blatant.

It really makes me wonder if the FoL have any chance at TLB at all. Of course it may just be BS's style that makes her look so much more incompetent. Or I could be misreading the author's intent entirely but I think If all Egwene could do with the Tower's most powerful female sa'angreal is lightning and firebolts, then TG has been lost already. Or maybe BS doesn't know how to channel

But ToM will redress all these...
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #2  
Old 03-21-2010, 08:04 PM
Spasmodean Spasmodean is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 252
Spasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really niceSpasmodean is just really nice
Default

One wonders exactly what tools you think Egwene should have been using?

I don't know if she knows balefire, but the last thing she would want to be doing is using forbidden weaves while at the same time trying to cement herself as Amyrlin.

She was fighting flying animals and humans, neither of which have any sort of resistance to fire and lightning, the only other tool I supposed she coould have used was ice, to freeze their wings but I got the feeling that because she was having a massively cathartic episode in killing sul'dam and Seanchan in general that the tools she was using were much more visceral than what a trained Aes Sedai would use, however in other fights with AS they do generally do the hurling of fireballs and lightning strikes.

Remember that she comes from an order of women who take an Oath not to use the power as a weapon, and I imagine that inventive ways to kill people with the power is not on the novice curriculum.
  #3  
Old 03-21-2010, 08:49 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean View Post
Remember that she comes from an order of women who take an Oath not to use the power as a weapon, and I imagine that inventive ways to kill people with the power is not on the novice curriculum.
Huh?

Egwene has hardly had any training by AS. That was part of what Elaida used against her. To recap, Egwene's training started with Moiraine, then the WT , and then damane training. Later she was trained by the WOs and discovered a lot of weaves while she held Moggy prisoner. As of KoD most AS considered her very capable with the OP.

So Egwene is not bound by AS customs even in nher thinking, and she has not held the oath rod. Even if she had, all AS were free to use the OP as a weapon in that attack.

The real problem is the lack of inventiveness.

If Rand had used the the weave he used in TSR to destroy those shadowspawn in KoD, it probably would have worked but KoD would have been a duller book for it. Ditto if he'd just fetcched Callandor or the CK. Very boring response. Deathgates and Blossoms of fire added something to the value of the book itself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean View Post
One wonders exactly what tools you think Egwene should have been using?
Hammers, clubs and cudgels (couldn't resist)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean View Post
I got the feeling that because she was having a massively cathartic episode in killing sul'dam and Seanchan in general that the tools she was using were much more visceral than what a trained Aes Sedai would use,
I would imagine moggy had a lot of weaves that would give her visceral. Or even the seanchan themselves. Besides any AS (or even novice) could have hurled fireball and lightning if they had a sa'angreal.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

Last edited by greatwolf; 03-21-2010 at 08:52 PM.
  #4  
Old 03-22-2010, 05:21 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,816
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmodean View Post
One wonders exactly what tools you think Egwene should have been using?
Air.

A web woven of razor sharp strings of Air somewhere in front of a flying animal would cut it to shreds. She could tie it off and make another one, and another, and another, and they would have to keep dodging in order to survive. Yes, their damane might have been able to cut some, but Egwene knew how to invert the webs to make them invisible, and that would have reduced damane effectiveness considerably.

By using things that they could see coming Egwene made sure that the Seanchan actually had a chance to dodge or fight back.
By using fireballs she highlighted her own position each time she struck. She should have watched Monty Python's How Not To Be Seen sketch a couple of times before she got into this fight.
  #5  
Old 03-22-2010, 12:36 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

apparently she didn't bother to invert her weaves. Or mask her ability. Egwene had already said she thought of her capture as a penance for not doing this when she turned the harbor chain. Why is she repeating the error?

When you're marching down a corridor full of the OP, masking the ability is a damned good idea if you want the advantage of surprise. If she did that, all she would need would be the saangreal, no need for her escort of novices. And I'm mnot still sure why she needed the novices. Granted Suian used a full circle with the rod to heal Mat, but she probably needed the precision rather than brute force.

With what Egwene had, she could have made dozens or thousand (maybe millions) of ball of air which if inverted, could have knocked quite a few of the attacker from their aerial mounts. Even knocking some unconscious directly. With a massive shot like that she could clear the air with one sweep. It would be difficult for the fliers to anticipate such tactics since they are unused to the power of sa'angreal.

All in nall I think she could have done better. At least one new weave!
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #6  
Old 03-22-2010, 01:06 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
apparently she didn't bother to invert her weaves. Or mask her ability. Egwene had already said she thought of her capture as a penance for not doing this when she turned the harbor chain. Why is she repeating the error?

When you're marching down a corridor full of the OP, masking the ability is a damned good idea if you want the advantage of surprise. If she did that, all she would need would be the saangreal, no need for her escort of novices. And I'm mnot still sure why she needed the novices. Granted Suian used a full circle with the rod to heal Mat, but she probably needed the precision rather than brute force.

With what Egwene had, she could have made dozens or thousand (maybe millions) of ball of air which if inverted, could have knocked quite a few of the attacker from their aerial mounts. Even knocking some unconscious directly. With a massive shot like that she could clear the air with one sweep. It would be difficult for the fliers to anticipate such tactics since they are unused to the power of sa'angreal.

All in nall I think she could have done better. At least one new weave!
Um, you do know she couldn't channel, right? She was using her circle of novies to draw the power through the sa'angreal through them.
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper
  #7  
Old 03-22-2010, 02:28 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,068
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Any weave she used could have easily been copied by the Seanchan...do you think she really wanted them getting Balefire?
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #8  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:23 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Any weave she used could have easily been copied by the Seanchan...do you think she really wanted them getting Balefire?

Even the seanchan can't see inverted weaves. And we all know Egwene can invert her weaves. But balefire isn't a new weave dav.


@Ishara

A circle of novices would give her enough of the OP to throw all the fireballs and lightnings her heart desires. Even a link with one or two women would be enough. And any saangreal would give enough to do same much less the tower's most powerful angreal. So she needed a circle or the saangreal. why both?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #9  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:43 PM
Ishara's Avatar
Ishara Ishara is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,424
Ishara has disabled reputation
Send a message via MSN to Ishara
Default

She needed the circle to use the sa'angreal - she couldn't have used it without them.

Once she had the circle of novices, why not ussa'angreal to augment that strength. That's like using a squirtgun when you have a supersoaler at hand. Especially in a fight to the death.

Also, inverting every weave in the heat of battle? 1. Way more work than what is necessary, thus expending more energy than is necssary, and 2. Way too complaex for common sense. Get in and get out - get the job done. Don't get fancy.
__________________
Courage my friends, it's not too late for a better world. -- Tommy Douglas

Rand: You are an insensitive bastard!!!
Mat: And you ruined another hat!


It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by lightening. -- Calvin

"Gee, I wish I could do magic! Maybe I'll try!" --SDog

Official Vixen of Theoryland and Theoryland Siren

Grain Goddess, the Rood Inverse, the Mad Glomper
  #10  
Old 03-22-2010, 03:51 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Also, she does not have past life memories so I don't see why anyone would expect her to come off with something comparable to Rews al'Thorin vs. Shadowspawn.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #11  
Old 03-22-2010, 04:31 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
She needed the circle to use the sa'angreal - she couldn't have used it without them.

Once she had the circle of novices, why not ussa'angreal to augment that strength. That's like using a squirtgun when you have a supersoaler at hand. Especially in a fight to the death.

Also, inverting every weave in the heat of battle? 1. Way more work than what is necessary, thus expending more energy than is necssary, and 2. Way too complaex for common sense. Get in and get out - get the job done. Don't get fancy.

In linking, the amount of OP available is greater than what either party can hold normally. So anyone Egwene links with will provide her with more of the OP than that novice normally can hold. Imagine how much Egwene would have if links with Nicola (who is at par with her potential wise) And she keeps adding more novices to the circle. Maybe the full thirteen. That's going to make quite a bit of power available even without a saangreal thrown in. So why use the saangreal?


Dragging thirteen novices through the corridors of the WT during a battle presents clear dangers. When a shot is taken at Egwene (I assume she's always in the lead whenever the group turns a corridor) she can duck only at the expense of those behind. And they can't defend themselves. Its far too likely that someone would get hurt.

Besides, thirteen women with bthe glow of the power make a better target for the damane than one or two.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #12  
Old 03-22-2010, 04:32 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Also, she does not have past life memories so I don't see why anyone would expect her to come off with something comparable to Rews al'Thorin vs. Shadowspawn.
Rews al'Thorin? Are you posting in your sleep again Terez?
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #13  
Old 03-22-2010, 05:18 PM
Kimon's Avatar
Kimon Kimon is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,302
Kimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Rews al'Thorin? Are you posting in your sleep again Terez?
duh...

Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin
  #14  
Old 03-22-2010, 05:32 PM
Matoyak's Avatar
Matoyak Matoyak is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas - USA
Posts: 1,355
Matoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of lightMatoyak is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
duh...

Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin
Just cause it makes sense doesn't mean she wasn't sleep-posting. This IS Theoryland, after all.
__________________
*Official Labrat of the TCA*
The Red Hand of Devil's End, the Blight of Bayside, the Filer of Forbidden Texts

[Gawyn] probably pops his collar. - Kivo
Mat's hat is a Darkfriend. - Daekyras
  #15  
Old 03-22-2010, 05:33 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
duh...

Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin
ah, so its now merger theory?

And who says Egghead doesn't have past life memories? she sprouted the ol' tongue in EotW, and rediscovered Travelling because she'd been using it in the aol already.

She still could have made a new weave.
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.

Last edited by greatwolf; 03-22-2010 at 05:42 PM.
  #16  
Old 03-22-2010, 06:02 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon
Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin
Fixed.

And I was posting in class.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #17  
Old 03-22-2010, 06:06 PM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

spoilsport
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
  #18  
Old 03-22-2010, 09:49 PM
Davian93's Avatar
Davian93 Davian93 is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 20,068
Davian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond reputeDavian93 has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Even the seanchan can't see inverted weaves. And we all know Egwene can invert her weaves. But balefire isn't a new weave dav.
You do realize that that it would be new to the Seanchan, don't you?

On the inverting...perhaps she didn't want to give that to every single Novice in the Tower.
__________________
Bonded to Brita

"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
  #19  
Old 03-22-2010, 10:58 PM
nameless nameless is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,254
nameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant futurenameless has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
apparently she didn't bother to invert her weaves. Or mask her ability. Egwene had already said she thought of her capture as a penance for not doing this when she turned the harbor chain. Why is she repeating the error?

When you're marching down a corridor full of the OP, masking the ability is a damned good idea if you want the advantage of surprise. If she did that, all she would need would be the saangreal, no need for her escort of novices. And I'm mnot still sure why she needed the novices. Granted Suian used a full circle with the rod to heal Mat, but she probably needed the precision rather than brute force.

With what Egwene had, she could have made dozens or thousand (maybe millions) of ball of air which if inverted, could have knocked quite a few of the attacker from their aerial mounts. Even knocking some unconscious directly. With a massive shot like that she could clear the air with one sweep. It would be difficult for the fliers to anticipate such tactics since they are unused to the power of sa'angreal.

All in nall I think she could have done better. At least one new weave!
What would be the point of 1,000 fireballs? She couldn't see all the raken at once to target them, and as it was she shot down every one she saw and easily repelled every counterattack. The Seanchan weapon weaves she learned as a damane focus on her strength with Earth, which doesn't do much good for flying targets. By glowing like the sun instead of masking the glow she drew their fire, which was exactly what she wanted to do since she knew she could take it and the rest of the Aes Sedai who didn't have a full circle and a sa'angreal probably couldn't. Throwing random traps around in the hopes that someone might fly into one would fatigue her needlessly and since she was practically collapsing at the end of the battle even without wasting her strength it's probably a good thing she didn't.
  #20  
Old 03-23-2010, 12:57 AM
greatwolf's Avatar
greatwolf greatwolf is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,634
greatwolf will become famous soon enoughgreatwolf will become famous soon enough
Default

how come my icons are not working??
__________________
May the Dragon live on in the hearts of all true believers.
 

Tags
battles, egwene, heroic defense of egwene, tgs, weak arguments


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.