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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 12: The Gathering Storm
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  #1  
Old 04-19-2010, 05:34 PM
Tercel Tercel is offline
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Default Some theories from TGS

1) Sorilea is a darkfriend.
She asked to see where Cadsuane was keeping the necklace, just prior to it being stolen, and no one else knew where it was. It also kind of feels 'right' for Sorilea to be a darkfriend, it's getting time for darkfriends among the Aiel to come into play more and Sorilea's a perfect choice plot-wise.

2) The Black Ajah like to wear their Ajah colours.
I felt like BS was beating us over the head with this in TGS, but it's something we really should have thought of earlier. Aes Sedai always like to wear their Ajah colour and so the Blacks like to wear both their public Ajah colour either with black embroidery or black bands on their dress or wear a very dark version of their public Ajah's colour.

3) Rand will survive the last battle by living on in Moridin's body, but Rand's current body will die.
This will fulfill the 'Finn's "to live you must die". Although it conflicts with my theory that Nynaeve will successfully Heal death after 3 days. I'm unsure how to resolve that conflict.

4) "Order and belief give strength" refers to the way to achieve victory over the DO by strengthening the Pattern and thus sealing him away by undoing the damage done to the Pattern by the Bore.

Nynaeve's thought on the subject is a not-so-subtle clue from Brandon about what the 'order and belief' of Fel's message are supposed to be about:
Quote:
Nynaeve, pg 494 TGS:
"Rand certainly was effective at subduing countries, but his kingdoms needed more than just handouts of grain. They needed stability, and they needed something - someone - they could believe in. Rand was getting increasingly bad at offering either."
Similar, Tuon and Egwene both note that their gaining clear structured leadership is positive:
Quote:
Tuon, pg 560 TGS:
The common people walked more confidently, more proudly. They had an empress again. With all that was wrong in the world, this one thing was right again.
Quote:
Egwene, pg 720 TGS:
"Egwene... sat down on the chair [of the Amyrlin Seat]... The world bowed beneath the stress of the Dark One's touch, but it felt a little more right - a little more secure - the moment she took her place."
  #2  
Old 04-19-2010, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel View Post
2) The Black Ajah like to wear their Ajah colours.
I felt like BS was beating us over the head with this in TGS, but it's something we really should have thought of earlier. Aes Sedai always like to wear their Ajah colour and so the Blacks like to wear both their public Ajah colour either with black embroidery or black bands on their dress or wear a very dark version of their public Ajah's colour.
Can you give some examples of this one, as I can't recall instances of this by BS off the top of my head, which makes me hesitant to accept this one- take for example the yellows and the whites, the other ajahs could come up with a very dark version of their own color and pass that off, but white and yellow couldn't. Along those same lines, I can think of one obvious example of a sister whose Ajah-colored dress is blatantly described as so dark as to be essentially black, but that was Toveine, and she was annoyed that she had unconsciously chosen something that was nearly asha'man-colored, but wore it anyway out of defiance. And Toveine is definetly not black- well definetly unless you're a real conspiracy theorist and think that as the leader of the mission against the Black Tower she might somehow not fall under the aegis of Alviarin's statement vis-a-vis that failed sortie. The only definitive statement we have received on black indicators is some hand message that may or may not involve rubbing of the thumbs, in which case that might tell us something about Annoura. But back to my initial query, to what sisters, be they black or merely suspected, are you referring?
  #3  
Old 04-19-2010, 10:34 PM
Tercel Tercel is offline
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Can you give some examples of this one, as I can't recall instances of this by BS off the top of my head, which makes me hesitant to accept this one
Okay, now you mention this and I think harder on it, I think it was in my post-TGS re-read right through all the books that I picked it up. In TGS we get Verin's list of Black Ajah plus what we know from other books of who's Black Ajah. Using that knowledge I was able to spot a correlation between dresses worn and BA members. Right from the beginning of the series through to TGS the correlation is there.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anywhere on the Web that contains all the dress-descriptions in the series, so it's not easy to find examples.

Quote:
take for example the yellows and the whites, the other ajahs could come up with a very dark version of their own color and pass that off, but white and yellow couldn't.
I recall a Yellow/Black Ajah member being described as wearing very dark yellow. The Whites wear black embroidery or black stripes on their dresses when they are Black.

Quote:
Along those same lines, I can think of one obvious example of a sister whose Ajah-colored dress is blatantly described as so dark as to be essentially black, but that was Toveine, and she was annoyed that she had unconsciously chosen something that was nearly asha'man-colored, but wore it anyway out of defiance. And Toveine is definetly not black
Of course, it's just a correlation, not certain proof. Aes Sedai don't always wear their ajah colours all the time and sometimes they wear colours of other ajahs.

Quote:
But back to my initial query, to what sisters, be they black or merely suspected, are you referring?
I agree it would be nice if I could cite a lot of examples, but short of reading the entire series through again I'm not sure how to locate those examples since no WoT websites seem to have thought Aes Sedai clothing worth noting in their character descriptions.
  #4  
Old 04-20-2010, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tercel View Post
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anywhere on the Web that contains all the dress-descriptions in the series, so it's not easy to find examples.
Good point. What we really need here is a Fashion Forum. Perhaps, if we had had that a decade ago, we would already have cracked the Asmodean mystery too.
  #5  
Old 04-20-2010, 05:10 AM
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There is a tendency for Black sisters to wear very dark versions of their Ajah Colours, but it's far from common. Duhara is one, wearing a "red that is almost black" regularly.

Elza wore very dark green in COT and Delana dark grey in KOD.

But Sheriam doesn't wear dark colours. Moreover, the Black Whites, for instance, never look like zebras.
  #6  
Old 04-20-2010, 09:58 AM
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Default bored at work today

Did a search on black/dark embroidery. No hits for black embroidery on black ajah sisters. Results as follows:

Siuan: black/gold embroidery in tel'aran'rhiod briefly - she isn't black, though
Rand: black dragons - in TGS
Lews Therin: aes sedai symbol - EOTW prologue
Egeanin and Yulan: black eagle-interesting but not important
Mesaana: black scrollwork - no mention of her alter ego wearing black embroidery though
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2010, 03:02 PM
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It would be nice if someone would actually post evidence for this idea that Black Ajah sisters tend to wear darker embroidery/clothing.

This is useless:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda
There is a tendency for Black sisters to wear very dark versions of their Ajah Colours, but it's far from common.
This is helpful:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother
Did a search on black/dark embroidery. No hits for black embroidery on black ajah sisters. Results as follows:

Siuan: black/gold embroidery in tel'aran'rhiod briefly - she isn't black, though
Rand: black dragons - in TGS
Lews Therin: aes sedai symbol - EOTW prologue
Egeanin and Yulan: black eagle-interesting but not important
Mesaana: black scrollwork - no mention of her alter ego wearing black embroidery though
The best way to do it probably involves reading a lot of dress descriptions after Ctrl+Fing Aes Sedai names. I do not envy the person who does this.
  #8  
Old 04-20-2010, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Neilbert View Post
It would be nice if someone would actually post evidence for this idea that Black Ajah sisters tend to wear darker embroidery/clothing.

The best way to do it probably involves reading a lot of dress descriptions after Ctrl+Fing Aes Sedai names. I do not envy the person who does this.
Well, you could also argue the point without evidence. I mean, look at the White Ajah. Obviously you can't wear a darker shade of white without looking like one of the Grays. So what do they do? They wrap themselves up in cold logic as a coping mechanism for the cognitive dissonance of being wrapped in an anathemic color.

Case closed, I'd say.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2010, 11:17 PM
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Well, you could also argue the point without evidence. I mean, look at the White Ajah. Obviously you can't wear a darker shade of white without looking like one of the Grays. So what do they do? They wrap themselves up in cold logic as a coping mechanism for the cognitive dissonance of being wrapped in an anathemic color.
Well novices and accepted wear white dresses, so perhaps the Whites are those Aes Sedai who subconsciously really still see themselves as novices/accepted.
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:57 PM
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does any one remember if Mat's dice (the ones in his head) were mentioned in tGS? I don't have the book handy right now.

Apologies for interrupting, do go on.
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Old 04-25-2010, 04:59 PM
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does any one remember if Mat's dice (the ones in his head) were mentioned in tGS? I don't have the book handy right now.

Apologies for interrupting, do go on.
I don't think they were you know. His dice rattling SHOULD have taken place in the run up to Verin's visit and stopped when he made his decision to accept her help if we have been going by the way they work in previous books.

Perhaps thats a question to be asked of BS next time someone goes to a signing!
  #12  
Old 04-25-2010, 05:21 PM
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I don't think they were you know. His dice rattling SHOULD have taken place in the run up to Verin's visit and stopped when he made his decision to accept her help if we have been going by the way they work in previous books.

Perhaps thats a question to be asked of BS next time someone goes to a signing!

BS might have forgotten somehow. Maybe the bit about the dice got deleted by error but it might also mean Mat doesn't have the dice any more, now he's agreed to go (back) to the finn and he's gotten married to Tuon.

IIRC, the agreement was about marrying the DoNM and getting out or so. But all that is based on Mat not having the dice rattling away in his head.

At least it should have been rattling when he entered that zombie town but I'm just not sure of it.
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  #13  
Old 04-25-2010, 10:28 PM
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does any one remember if Mat's dice (the ones in his head) were mentioned in tGS? I don't have the book handy right now.

Apologies for interrupting, do go on.
Yes, they rattled and stopped for his decision to stay in the zombie town.
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Old 04-25-2010, 10:40 PM
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3) Rand will survive the last battle by living on in Moridin's body, but Rand's current body will die.
This will fulfill the 'Finn's "to live you must die". Although it conflicts with my theory that Nynaeve will successfully Heal death after 3 days. I'm unsure how to resolve that conflict.
Two-step program.

1. Admit the body swap theory is lame.

2. Realize that the superior theory is that Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies (she saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte...with the Power), and that Birgitte's comment that 'we are not dead as others are dead' serves as fulfillment of the 'dead yet lives'.

Conflict solved.

As for the 'belief and order thing' - it's been clear for a long time that the Seanchan bring the necessary order, and that Rand needs more than anything for his followers to actually believe in him rather than following him because he can kill them with his brain.
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:17 PM
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Admit the body swap theory is lame.
Not nearly as lame as Sammael's death.
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:23 PM
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As if that has anything to do with anything.
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  #17  
Old 04-26-2010, 12:21 AM
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Ah yes, sorry.

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Old 04-26-2010, 12:24 AM
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wat?
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:56 AM
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wat?
WoT?
sorry, thats just lame. I'll try harder next time!

Also, excellent theory about Nynaeve. Is that in the theories archive somewhere?
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  #20  
Old 04-27-2010, 10:29 AM
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WoT?
sorry, thats just lame. I'll try harder next time!

Also, excellent theory about Nynaeve. Is that in the theories archive somewhere?
That's theory's been around forever, hasn't it? Maybe not the specifics of using the Moghedien experience, but it seems like an old theory. Terez is pretty old, though.
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