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  #1  
Old 06-01-2010, 06:31 AM
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Thumbs down "Next time we'll use more force"

WTF????

also, (paraphrase) "our armed soldiers boarded a ship in international waters in the middle of the night, the people on the ship attacked our sholdiers with sticks and bananas, the soldiers thought they were in mortal danger so they opened fire"

yeah. Logic fail.

Or, as has been pointed out by an Iranian commentator - had anyone circulated the exact same news pieces with "Israel" changed to "Iran" the international response would have been very different indeed.
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  #2  
Old 06-01-2010, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Or, as has been pointed out by an Iranian commentator - had anyone circulated the exact same news pieces with "Israel" changed to "Iran" the international response would have been very different indeed.
I don't know, the international response seems to be unified condemnation of Israel for this. At least, that is how it is being reported here in Canada.

Perhaps there would have been an immediate jump to sanctions and other official response, but that is only because Iran has a track record of thumbing it's nose at international laws. If Israel keeps this up, they will be in the same boat as Iran before long.

If anything, this incident is taking a bit of the rosy sheen off of Israel's image, that is for sure.
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  #3  
Old 06-01-2010, 06:49 AM
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I don't know, the international response seems to be unified condemnation of Israel for this. At least, that is how it is being reported here in Canada.

Perhaps there would have been an immediate jump to sanctions and other official response, but that is only because Iran has a track record of thumbing it's nose at international laws. If Israel keeps this up, they will be in the same boat as Iran before long.

If anything, this incident is taking a bit of the rosy sheen off of Israel's image, that is for sure.
What condemnation? the official UN response was to call for an impartial investigation and call the current Gaza situation unsustainable.

also, what rosy sheen? The one they've kept polishing for years by building a wall around a minority population, restraining access to basic foodstuffs and trade in the walled-off area, restraining information exchange about the area, and now this...?

I'm sorry, but if this goes on we can exchange Jew for another nationality and get the equivalent of holocaust. One would think that if anyone would understand how very very wrong it is that they are doing, it would be the Jews...
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:53 AM
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If anything, this incident is taking a bit of the rosy sheen off of Israel's image, that is for sure.
Israel had a rosy sheen before this? What have they done to deserve that? They were given a country, they decided it wasn't enough and started taking more.
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2010, 06:59 AM
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Israel had a rosy sheen before this? What have they done to deserve that? They were given a country, they decided it wasn't enough and started taking more.
In North America, Israel definitely is viewed through rose coloured glasses. By rosy sheen, I mean that there is an inaccurate view of Israel (over here at least) and this action will force some people to look more honestly at the country and what they are doing, instead of explaining everything away through rose coloured glasses*.

* I write this assuming you have a similar expression of "rose coloured glasses"
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:07 AM
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Perhaps there would have been an immediate jump to sanctions and other official response, but that is only because Iran has a track record of thumbing it's nose at international laws.
Are you sure?
As far as I know, defending yourself if you're attacked isn't against the law, so they did not break that when they fought back against Saddam. Using poison gas was illegal, I'll grant you. I don't know which side started it at the time.
Having a program for developing nuclear power is not illegal. The USA keeps saying that Saddam, ehr, Iran, is developing nukes, but all it can show for that assertion is the claim that it is true.
Keeping the Westbank and such occupied is in violation of international law, but Iran isn't doing that.

So the most you can pin on them is that they may have been excessive while defending themselves against Saddam. But that's a bit of a dicey argument, I think.

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If Israel keeps this up, they will be in the same boat as Iran before long.
No, they won't. They will get away with it at least as long as the American system for lobbying politicians does not change significantly.

Edited to add:
Quote:
* I write this assuming you have a similar expression of "rose coloured glasses"
I think that the english term is "rose tinted glasses". If not, that'll provide a nice nitpicking sideline to the 'discussion'.

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  #7  
Old 06-01-2010, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
I'm sorry, but if this goes on we can exchange Jew for another nationality and get the equivalent of holocaust. One would think that if anyone would understand how very very wrong it is that they are doing, it would be the Jews...
Only thing I would point out here is that Israelis aren't Jews any more than Americans are Christians, which is to say that many are Jews but hardly representative of all Israelis.
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  #8  
Old 06-01-2010, 07:44 AM
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Only thing I would point out here is that Israelis aren't Jews any more than Americans are Christians, which is to say that many are Jews but hardly representative of all Israelis.
ah, so they are Jewish when it's convenient and not whenever it suits them? You know, how whenever anyone dares to say that Israel is behaving badly, then immediately whoever says it is an "antisemite".

Of course, Germany is not allowed to say anything at all, and EU without Germany is pretty useless.
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  #9  
Old 06-01-2010, 07:53 AM
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GO ISRAEL!!!




They have the right to stop smuggling into their territory.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid..._aid_ship.html
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:57 AM
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Of course, the Gaza Strip isn't their territory, but I guess that does not matter all that much.

Tell me, Davian, what are the official borders of Israel?
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:57 AM
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So long as Israel remains the one and only foothold the US has in the Middle East, I think we'll find that they can indeed do whatever they want.

There should have been sanctions. And this, right on the heels of Netanyahu's visit to Canada? Shameful. Of course, I have to say that I didn't expect Harper to call them out, I'm still disappointed. This kind of behaviour is a revolting display of superiority, although some may say that they are left with no choice in the face of sheer determination to wipe them out. Whatever, I say. I doubt that the AID boat was determined to wipe them out with bananas.

yks, I think what Camel was trying to say is that not all Israelis are Jews, although it's widely recognized that they make up the majority of the population there - much like Christians do in the US. That being said, I think it's important to remember that in this case, being Jewish could be a case of religion and/ or race - not both necessarily.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:58 AM
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Israel had a rosy sheen before this? What have they done to deserve that? They were given a country, they decided it wasn't enough and started taking more.
Yes, that's exactly what happened. They weren't repeatedly attacked attacked starting in 1947 and again in 67 and 73. They aren't surrounded by nations that have stated their goal is to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Yeah, they started the violence in 47, not the Arabs/Palestinians. In 1967, they preemtively attacked only after both Syria and Egypt (the "united arab republic") had activated its armed forces and was preparing its own invasion. In 1973, both nations attacked again and got their arses handed to them despite outnumbering the IDF. Yeah, Israel is fully to blame here. Unless you are in their shoes getting attacked on a daily basis by terrorists that are directly supported by your neighboring countries, you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:59 AM
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Of course, the Gaza Strip isn't their territory, but I guess that does not matter all that much.

Tell me, Davian, what are the official borders of Israel?
Technically, Gaza is Israeli territory...its an autonomous Palestianian territory within the boundaries of Israel proper.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:02 AM
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What are those boundaries of Israel proper?

For instance, do Montana and Texas fall within those boundaries, or not?
That may seem a rather over the top question, and it is. But on the other hand, as far as I know, Israel has not set limitations on what it wants to claim, so if they could get away with it, they might gobble up some US states too.
This is of course an important issue when demanding of the Palestinians that they acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Suppose that they do, then what are they agreeing to? They don't know, and signing a contract you are not allowed to read is generally inadvisable, as they know too.

The only official borders that one could refer to are those of the 1947 UN division plan. And I do not believe for one moment that's what Israel is hoping to end up with.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:05 AM
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This kind of behaviour is a revolting display of superiority, although some may say that they are left with no choice in the face of sheer determination to wipe them out. Whatever, I say. I doubt that the AID boat was determined to wipe them out with bananas.
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Yes, that's exactly what happened. They weren't repeatedly attacked attacked starting in 1947 and again in 67 and 73. They aren't surrounded by nations that have stated their goal is to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Yeah, they started the violence in 47, not the Arabs/Palestinians. In 1967, they preemtively attacked only after both Syria and Egypt (the "united arab republic") had activated its armed forces and was preparing its own invasion. In 1973, both nations attacked again and got their arses handed to them despite outnumbering the IDF. Yeah, Israel is fully to blame here. Unless you are in their shoes getting attacked on a daily basis by terrorists that are directly supported by your neighboring countries, you have no idea what you are talking about.
I quoted myself because I think we were cross-posting and I wanted to make sure you saw it Dav.

We aren't talking about events of 40+ years ago.
We're talking about the murder of over 10 INNOCENT people armed with nothing but bananas. Come on! I'm not unsympathetic to the reason behind the the "creation" of Israel, obviously. But half a century later, to be using that to excuse such disgusting and blatantly brutal behaviour is too much to ask me to be sympathetic for.

How about the situation with North/ South Korea right now? Can we justify that?
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  #16  
Old 06-01-2010, 08:09 AM
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I quoted myself because I think we were cross-posting and I wanted to make sure you saw it Dav.

We aren't talking about events of 40+ years ago.
We're talking about the murder of over 10 INNOCENT people armed with nothing but bananas. Come on! I'm not unsympathetic to the reason behind the the "creation" of Israel, obviously. But half a century later, to be using that to excuse such disgusting and blatantly brutal behaviour is too much to ask me to be sympathetic for.

How about the situation with North/ South Korea right now? Can we justify that?
OTher reports have the Commandos getting attacked with gunfire and knives...all I'm saying is that we're only hearing one side of this. Israel had a right to enforce its blockade of Gaza.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:15 AM
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Did any of the gunfire which went in the direction of those commandos come from a gun they hadn't brought to that boat themselves?
I've heard that one of them got shot with his own gun, when one of the activists took that from him. If he hadn't brought a gun to a banana fight, then he would not have been shot.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:18 AM
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OTher reports have the Commandos getting attacked with gunfire and knives...all I'm saying is that we're only hearing one side of this. Israel had a right to enforce its blockade of Gaza.
Here's an Israeli article that has this picture of confiscated knives:

The article doesn't say if these were taken directly from the people using them against the Israeli soldiers or if they were taken from the ship or even how many ships. Ok, be the case as it is, I'm no knife-expert but obviously about half - possibly more - of those knives are from the ship's kitchen.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:25 AM
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What are those boundaries of Israel proper?

For instance, do Montana and Texas fall within those boundaries, or not?
That may seem a rather over the top question, and it is. But on the other hand, as far as I know, Israel has not set limitations on what it wants to claim, so if they could get away with it, they might gobble up some US states too.
This is of course an important issue when demanding of the Palestinians that they acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Suppose that they do, then what are they agreeing to? They don't know, and signing a contract you are not allowed to read is generally inadvisable, as they know too.

The only official borders that one could refer to are those of the 1947 UN division plan. And I do not believe for one moment that's what Israel is hoping to end up with.

Israel has a right to give itself defendable borders and it has done so.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Here's an Israeli article that has this picture of confiscated knives:

The article doesn't say if these were taken directly from the people using them against the Israeli soldiers or if they were taken from the ship or even how many ships. Ok, be the case as it is, I'm no knife-expert but obviously about half - possibly more - of those knives are from the ship's kitchen.
I count six that are obvious, 3 that are questionable and the rest are not kitchen knives. Not that any of that matters really.

I keep one of these in my room tucked under the bed. It's good for two reasons, it's heavy as hell and does a lot of damage and it can be thrown and is heavy enough to hurt you whether it hits with the sharp part or not...which it usually does. I also keep a bat there, but this works so much better.

Here's my favorite knife to carry. (I took this one to Atlanta) It's not a kitchen knife, but it's not a fighting knife either. It'll definitely fuck you up though...I've cut myself enough times with it to know.

Anyway, I'm going with Dav here.
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