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  #1  
Old 08-09-2010, 08:49 PM
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Default What are Padan Fain Mordeth feelings about Tinkers, Traveling People? "Kill'em"

Does anyone else remember this particular scene?


Quote:
“Yes, Child Ivon?”

“Hundredman Farran sent me, my Lord. It’s the Tinkers. Ordeith was talking to three of them, my Lord, and now none of the three can be found.”

“Blood and ashes!” Bornhald spun on his bootheel and strode back into the trees, Ivon at his heels.

Out of sight of the river, white-cloaked horsemen clogged the spaces between leatherleafs and pines, lances held with casual familiarity or bows laid across their pommels. The horses stamped their hooves impatiently and flicked their tails. The riders waited more stolidly; this would not be their first river crossing into strange territory, and this time no one would be trying to stop them.

In a large clearing beyond the mounted men stood a caravan of the Tuatha’an, the Traveling People. Tinkers. Nearly a hundred horse-drawn wagons, like small, boxy houses on wheels, made an eye-jarring blend of colors, red and green and yellow and every hue imaginable in combinations only a Tinker’s eye could like. The people themselves wore clothes that made their wagons look dull. They sat on the ground in a large cluster, eyeing the mounted men with an oddly calm unease; the thin crying of a child was swiftly comforted by its mother. Nearby, dead mastiffs made a mound already buzzing with flies. Tinkers would not raise a hand even to defend themselves, and the dogs had been mostly show, but Bornhald had not been willing to take a chance.

Six men were all he had thought necessary to watch Tinkers. Even with stiff faces, they looked embarrassed. None glanced at the seventh man sitting a horse near the wagons, a bony little man with a big nose, in a dark gray coat that looked too big for him despite the fineness of its cut. Farran, a bearded boulder of a man yet light on his feet for all his height and width, stood glaring at all seven equally. The hundredman pressed a gauntleted hand to his heart in salute but left all talking to Bornhald.

“A word with you, Master Ordeith,” Bornhald said quietly. The bony man cocked his head, looking at Bornhald for a long moment before dismounting. Farran growled, but Bornhald kept his voice low. “Three of the Tinkers cannot be found, Master Ordeith. Did you perhaps put your own suggestion into practice?” The first words out of Ordeith’s mouth when he saw the Tinkers had been “Kill them. They’re of no use.” Bornhald had killed his share of men, but he had never matched the casualness with which the little man had spoken.

Ordeith rubbed a finger along the side of his large nose. “Now, why would I be killing them? And after you ripped me so for just suggesting it.” His Lugarder accent was heavy today; it came and went without him seeming to notice, another thing about the man that disturbed Bornhald.

“Then you allowed them to escape, yes?”

“Well, as to that, I did take a few of them off where I could see what they knew. Undisturbed, you see.”

“What they knew? What under the Light could Tinkers know of use to us?”

“There’s no way of telling until you ask, now is there?” Ordeith said. “I didn’t hurt any of them much, and I told them to get themselves back to the wagons. Who would be thinking they’d have the nerve to run away with so many of your men about?”


The Shadowing Rising, Prologue 'Seeds of Shadow' - Dain Bornhald point of view

If Padan Fain Mordeth's first thought upon seeing Traveling People is to “Kill them. They’re of no use.”. Is not logical to suspect that that attitude is going to remain consistent towards anyone who dresses like a Tinker? A Traveling Circus filled with individuals cast out as "Lost"?

Can a paper letter written by Tuon help save Valan Luca from Padan Fain Mordeth's orders to 'Kill'em all'?

What good can a letter do, unless the right set of individuals see it? As in Seanchan soldiers, in Murandy? Perhaps the same soldiers, Luca has sought to entertain once before in the towns of Alkindar and Coramen?


Quote:
There were Seanchan on the landings, a squad of beefy men in segmented armor painted blue and burnt gold under a lean young officer with one thin blue plume on his odd-looking helmet. They seemed to be there just to keep order, but the officer checked Luca’s horse warrant, and Luca inquired whether the noble lord might know of ground outside the town suitable for his show to perform. Mat could have wept. He could see soldiers wearing striped armor in the street behind him, wandering in and out of shops and taverns. A raken swooped down out of the sky on long, ribbed wings, alighting outside one of the camps across the river. Three or four of the snake-necked creatures were already on the ground. There had to be hundreds of soldiers in those camps. Maybe a thousand. And Luca was going to put on his show.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 28 “A Cluster of Rosebuds” - Mat Cauthon point of view
Suroth did make an alliance with a King (CoT, Ch.28); Galgan does have a plan in action to move something by to'raken (KoD); and Tuon did want a map burned so her plans would not be learned of and exposed, by Mat Cauthon and the Band of Red Hand (KoD).

My point is Seanchan Soldiers are currently within Murandy now. However, Valan Luca and his Circus is at grave risk, if no Seanchan soldiers learn of his letter before Fain does.


Question is who are these Seanchan Soldiers loyal to now? Tuon, now Empress Fortuona? Or High Blood General Galgan, and his own plan to de-throne the Empress? Or to Padan Fain Mordeth and King Roedran?

My bet is the majority of them shall be loyal to an letter written by Tuon, now called Empress Fortuona.

Quote:
“Look what the Lady gave me!” Snatching open one of the cupboards, he pulled out a folded paper that he held reverently in both hands. It was thick paper, and white as snow; expensive. “A warrant. Not sealed, of course, but signed. Valan Luca’s Grand Traveling Show and Magnificent Display of Marvels and Wonders is now under the personal protection of the High Lady Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag. Everyone will know who that is, of course. I could go to Seanchan. I could put on my show for the Empress! May she live forever,” he added hastily, with another bow to Tuon.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 29 "Something Flickers" - Mat Cauthon point of view

Just as Tylee and Mishima followed the authority given to Perrin, when he possessed a letter from Suroth.


Ironically, Luca does possess a warrant of protection for his horses from Suroth too:

Quote:
What really caught his eyes, however, were the horselines. Long horselines, where two dozen men bundled against the cold were shoveling dung into barrows. Hundreds of horses. Supposedly, Luca had given shelter to some Seanchan animal trainer, and his reward had been a warrant, signed by the High Lady Suroth herself, allowing him to keep all of his animals. Mat’s own Pips was secure, saved from the lottery ordered by Suroth because he was in the Tarasin Palace stables, but getting the gelding out of those stables was beyond him. Tylin as good as had a leash around his neck, and she did not intend to let him go any time soon.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 15 "In Needs of a Bellfounder" - Mat Cauthon point of view
That warrant of protection for his animals from Suroth is legit. As can be seen in multiple scenes within CoT, Chapter 28 "A Cluster of Rosebuds."


Yet Siuan speaking to Nynaeve and Elayne, once spoke of the flimsy nature of authority granted by letter. A target instead of a shield?:

Quote:
“I could do anything with this,” Nynaeve said in a wondering voice. “Order the guards to march. Command the Warders.” She gave a little laugh. “I could make a Warder dance, with this.”

“Until I found out about it,” the Amyrlin agreed dryly. “Unless you had a very convincing reason, I’d make you wish Liandrin had caught you.”

“I didn’t mean to do any of that,” Nynaeve said hastily. “I just meant that it gives more authority than I had imagined.”

“You may need every shred of it. But just you remember, child. A Darkfriend won’t heed that any more than a Whitecloak would. They would both likely kill you just for having it. If that paper is a shield . . . well, paper shields are flimsy, and this one may have a target painted on it.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 14 "The Bite of the Thorns" - Egwene point of view, in the White Tower
Padan Fain Mordeth is something far worse than a simply Darkfriend, and he will not see a letter of protection as a shield at all. If the Empress never learns of a Circus's being destroyed...

Another question is, how many Seanchan soldiers has Padan Fain Mordeth turned to his own side? Just as he did with a faction of White Cloak soldiers in Two Rivers, loyal to Mordeth. Who is loyal to whom?

Who can Luca trust to show this letter to, in his coming time of "Great Need"?
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Last edited by FelixPax; 08-09-2010 at 08:56 PM.
  #2  
Old 08-09-2010, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Another question is, how many Seanchan soldiers has Padan Fain Mordeth turned to his own side?
I think I missed something; where do you get the idea that Padan Fain is anywhere near Seanchan soldiers. He was last seen in Far Madding, fleeing from Rand, who had just slashed him with a sword. That was just 51 days before the end of tGS according to the Chronology.

If Padan Fain has been doing anything more than healing up and brooding, he is most likely to have attached himself to the Borderland Rulers when they got all paranoid and wouldn't meet Rand anywhere except where Padan Fain was last seen.

Some unaswered question in the time since he was last seen suggest that he might be anywhere the Ways reach, including a trip to the Blight to impersonate Sammael. That is all unfounded speculation thought because Padan Fain hasn't been seen or mentioned since WH ch 33 -- except for an indirect reference in KoD ch 20 as the source of Rand's unhealable dagger wound.

Padan Fain's disdain for Tinkers does not seem to me to be hatred as much as it disgust. They aren't a target he would go seeking although he would not treat them well if they crossed paths --
Whether that disdain or disgust would carry over to Circus Folk -- who will fight when threatened, unlike Tinkers -- is hard to tell. Certainly Valan Luca's circus would not be a pushover for the kind of renegades Padan Fain would recruit.
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:21 PM
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The Darkhound pack in northern Altara seems to suggest that Fain was there before he went to Far Madding. The Shadowspawn outside Ebou Dar suggest that he went back. But nothing to suggest he's subverting Seanchan soldiers, or going after Tinkers (though I wouldn't be surprised if those Shadowspawn encountered some Tinkers on the way from the Waygate to the ambush spot).
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The Darkhound pack in northern Altara seems to suggest that Fain was there before he went to Far Madding. The Shadowspawn outside Ebou Dar suggest that he went back. But nothing to suggest he's subverting Seanchan soldiers, or going after Tinkers (though I wouldn't be surprised if those Shadowspawn encountered some Tinkers on the way from the Waygate to the ambush spot).
That's pretty much what Iwas trying to say; there are a lot of things that suggest PAdan Fainmight have been in the area, but there is no evidence of his presence nor mention of anything characteristic of Padan Fain's behavior.

The most that can be said of Padan Fain's whereabouts and activities is such-and-such may have been aimed at Padan Fain or so-and-so is looking for Padan Fain ('so-and-so' being Slayer who also hasn't been seen or heard from since KOD.)
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Old 08-09-2010, 10:55 PM
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Well, we know for a fact that Slayer was looking for Fain. Moridin said so in WH, and Masuri said in COT that the character of the Darkhounds' hunt was that their prey had been eluding them for a long time. Also, there is a Waygate not far from where Perrin was camped, in what used to be Loranden Cor, and it seems as though the Darkhounds were on his trail, though they were surely at least 10-15 days behind him.
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Well, we know for a fact that Slayer was looking for Fain. Moridin said so in WH, ...
We know Slayer(Isam) was still looking in KoD Ch 20 if the encylopedia is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
...Masuri said in COT that the character of the Darkhounds' hunt was that their prey had been eluding them for a long time.
That is NOT evidence that Padan Fain was their target, though. There are other candidates for their target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Also, there is a Waygate not far from where Perrin was camped, in what used to be Loranden Cor, ...
Again, that is not evidence that Padan Fain used that Waygate -- or is still using waygates at all, for that matter. Just because he is probably the only living thing that can use the Ways doesn't mean that he IS using them. It is a logical line of speculation, but it IS just speculation without the support of evidence.
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Old 08-10-2010, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
We know Slayer(Isam) was still looking in KoD Ch 20 if the encylopedia is correct.
That chapter was The Golden Crane. I'm not aware of any evidence one way or the other in that chapter, unless they assume that the target was Rand and that the Shadowspawn were sent by Slayer. That seems unlikely, seeing as how Slayer follows orders like a good boy. It could be that one of the Forsaken ordered him to do it and posed as Sammael for him (like Demandred), but it seems unlikely that any of the Forsaken would have thought it had a chance of succeeding, which would make it not worth the risk. Slayer is willing to work in secret, but I can't see him lying about it if he were questioned by Nae'blis, or Shaidar Haran.

As I said, the Darkhounds were at least a week or two behind Fain, if they were indeed on his scent. If he was using the Ways, then they would have had all that much more difficulty finding him, so I would be surprised if they caught up to him, even if Slayer himself is using Tel'aran'rhiod to search the Waygates for his scent (as seems likely, though he obviously can't use it to find Fain directly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
That is NOT evidence that Padan Fain was their target, though. There are other candidates for their target.
It's not proof, but it IS evidence, and strong evidence, in relation to the other options for 1) where Fain has been, and 2) who the Darkhounds were after. At least we have Moridin's word that Slayer is after Fain, and the fact that Slayer has been hunting Fain since TSR at the latest. That's the best explanation by far in the books for the prey that has been eluding them, because Moridin can find Rand his own self, because Rand is ta'veren. He can NOT use the Pattern to find Fain; RJ says he has in some ways side-stepped the Pattern, and Min sees no viewings around him.

As for evidence that Fain was in Altara, there are the Seanchan, who we know from RJ appeal to Fain specifically, the Empress, the biggest kahuna in the bunch and the most capable of protecting him against his enemies (both Rand and the Shadow). We know from the books and from RJ direct that this is Fain's MO. We also know that Rand was in Altara waging his campaign against the Seanchan before he started laying his false trails, and the trail to Far Madding underneath. We know Fain had to use the Ways to get to Far Madding unless he just happened to be there already, which seems unlikely. Rand had only been laying those trails for a week or two when Fain was first confirmed in Far Madding. Incidentally, we get a comment from Demandred about those false trails in the same conversation as Moridin revealed that Slayer was still hunting Fain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH
Again, that is not evidence that Padan Fain used that Waygate -- or is still using waygates at all, for that matter. Just because he is probably the only living thing that can use the Ways doesn't mean that he IS using them. It is a logical line of speculation, but it IS just speculation without the support of evidence.
It's not proof, but it IS evidence. The Darkhounds were on the scent of something. Wherever Fain was, he used the Ways to get to Far Madding. The timeline proves that he has used the Ways several times in the series, and RJ has confirmed that in interview. As for the Waygate at Londaren Cor...that one was emphasized in Haman's telling of the locations of the Waygates, and also, Mat just so happened to recognize The Dancers, the landmark of Londaren Cor, in KOD when Tuon ran away from him, and he chased her...he fondly reminisced about his time spent there, and dying not far from where he stood. They also met some Tinkers there.

Randland map
Ten Nations map
Dominic's Northern Altara detail map
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Old 08-10-2010, 06:25 AM
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Default Mordeth is advising Roedran; Murandy is now neo-Aridhol; Seanchan are his allies.

Luca's brightly colored wagon, even now out shines other passing Tinker wagons in its colorfulness.

I'm still surprise nobody else has highlighted Padan Fain's feelings towards the Traveling People before. It's a conflict foreshadowing the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
I think I missed something; where do you get the idea that Padan Fain is anywhere near Seanchan soldiers.
From a book series, called the "The Wheel of Time", heard of it?



Haven't you been paying attention to all the negative symbolism occurring within Murandy?

Even considering the assumption you haven't re-read the series recently, you should have noticed:
  • The armed farmers acting very oddly in tGS book from Nynaeve's POV;
  • Murandy is where General Galgan & the Air General decided to send a raid attacking White Tower through, not northern Altara. That fact is important.


Weird Harold, as I've said previously to other forum posters to give a "complete answer" would take an entire essay length response, to answer why Padan Fain Mordeth now advising King Roedran in Murandy. An essay probably between 10-70 pages in length, depending on what's included all told.


I'm neck deep into writing an my Luca Essay now. It's not an easy essay to write, even after re-reading this series over 30+ times all the way through. So the best answer your going receive from me at the moment is:

Padan Fain Mordeth is partially tied to Valan Luca's story in the next book. Valan Luca's role as a ta'veren hero, and his connections to Robert Jordan's favored Hindu God of Ganesha, suggest that Luca will act like a "mouse" in Murandy. A Mouse to survive the madness, created in part by Padan Fain Mordeth and his Red Ruby Dagger.


Perhaps it was ta'veren luck Mat Cauthon's name was specifically not under Tuon's Personal Protection on the warrant letter? Or not?


Mordeth, might just want to question Luca about Mat Cauthon's location...that's ummm..unpleasant.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
He was last seen in Far Madding, fleeing from Rand, who had just slashed him with a sword. That was just 51 days before the end of tGS according to the Chronology.
Hmm...

Padan Fain attacked Rand on Saban-21, Day 715

End of 'The Gathering Storm' book is, Saven-23, Day 802.

That's a difference of 87 Days, not 51 Days.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 08-11-2010 at 10:48 AM. Reason: minor spelling fix only
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Old 08-10-2010, 07:54 AM
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My taken on Fain's attitude was that groups of people fell into one of three groups, No 1 - his enemies = manipulate or destroy them. No 2 - groups he can use = manipulate them and No 3 those who while are not enemies cannot be of any use to him by their very nature.

I would suspect that the adherance to the Way of the leaf which is pretty much the polar oposite of Fain's/Mordeth's way of doing business means that the traveling people are of no use to him so they are just in the way = get rid of them.

The people in the show might dress in fancy colours but they are not bound to the Way of the Leaf so if Fain can make the distinction he might well try to infect them to spread his own brand of poison.
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Old 08-10-2010, 03:37 PM
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RJ says he has in some ways side-stepped the Pattern, and Min sees no viewings around him.
I do not recall anything being said by RJ about Min being unable to see viewing around him. Do you have a source for this claim or is this your personal speculation about RJ's 'side-stepped the pattern' quote?
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Old 08-10-2010, 04:24 PM
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I do not recall anything being said by RJ about Min being unable to see viewing around him. Do you have a source for this claim or is this your personal speculation about RJ's 'side-stepped the pattern' quote?
When Rand and Min went out into the woods around Cairhien and met up with Caraline et alia, she saw Fain, but couldn't see any viewings around him. It's the only time that she crosses paths with him, so take that for what it's worth, but she definetly didn't see anything. Whether that by extension means that it would be impossible to ever see anything is less clear. Viewings, after all, aren't always there. So it could just be a coincidence, or may have been intentional.
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Old 08-10-2010, 04:46 PM
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When Rand and Min went out into the woods around Cairhien and met up with Caraline et alia, she saw Fain, but couldn't see any viewings around him. It's the only time that she crosses paths with him, so take that for what it's worth, but she definetly didn't see anything. Whether that by extension means that it would be impossible to ever see anything is less clear. Viewings, after all, aren't always there. So it could just be a coincidence, or may have been intentional.
No, I would not take that scene to mean she can not see viewing around him, merely that she did not see viewing around him that one time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
...RJ says he has in some ways side-stepped the Pattern, and Min sees no viewings around him.
Terez appears to be implying that RJ said this, hence why I am interested in her source.

EDIT:
I can completely see Min not being able to see viewing around Fain because he has side-stepped the pattern, I just have not seen any confirmation of such from RJ as terez is implying.
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:37 PM
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You are reading implications into what I said that fit with your view of me, as usual. I assumed everyone would know exactly what I was talking about, like Enigma did.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
I would suspect that the adherance to the Way of the leaf which is pretty much the polar oposite of Fain's/Mordeth's way of doing business means that the traveling people are of no use to him so they are just in the way = get rid of them.
Agreed. Valan Luca's original small band has the the opposite values of Padan Fain Mordeth; Luca wants to protect people & women in particular from evildoers, while Mordeth wants the whole world to die.

Fain Mordeth, I believe knew what would happen to the world after wounding Rand with this Red Ruby Dagger.


Luca wants to find the "Lost Song".



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The people in the show might dress in fancy colours but they are not bound to the Way of the Leaf so if Fain can make the distinction he might well try to infect them to spread his own brand of poison.
Here we'll disagree.


Luca remains a Da'Shain Aiel at heart, I'd argue even after being cast out by Raen, Ila, Aram, and Aram's mother of the Tuantha'an bands.

Luca's clothes, the circus's wagon designs all matter. Just as livery matters in Cairhien, Caemlyn, Tear, and among Asha'man too.


Frankly, I'd be SHOCKED if Mordeth can infect any of Luca's Circus performers, especially the originally group of performers. All of them are Tinker at heart -- Petra, Clarine et la.-- but they'll do what's necessarily to keep to the true goal of the Breaking Era Aes Sedai orders. Keep the Da'Shain Aiel alive, still moving, and safe.

Luca's a bringer together of Da'Shain Aiel descendents: Tinkers, Sea Folk performers. All of them, are following the original Breaking Era Aes Sedai orders.


Some how Luca is going to escape Murandy alive...being a ta'veren, no less too. A ta'veren, who is stronger in effect than either Mat or Perrin are.
Mat actually once complained about his own lack of ta'veren-ness in Ebou Dar ironically enough.

Luca's ta'veren-ness is what pushed three ta'veren to be delayed for months in time, between Stedding Tsofu to Toman Head. Even the Dragon Reborn will can be bend by Luca's ta'veren-ness.

Luca simply had to arrive in Almoth Plain, or the Pattern would have died. Why? No Cerandin, would have meant no horse warrant for Luca, Mat & Tuon to escape Ebou Dar.

I wonder if the Dark One, even recognizes who Valan Luca is? Or even Padan Fain Mordeth?



Does Mordeth have the "Talent of Reading" ta'veren?
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:53 AM
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RJ said that Fain can track Rand, and Mat and Perrin to a lesser degree. This of course fits with the info in the books. Fain marked the three boys for the Dark One, and then he was made into the Dark One's Hound, and that's where he picked up the ability to track them, along with the compulsion to hunt them. His compulsion to hunt Rand is strong; he probably won't bother with hunting Mat or Perrin until Rand is dead.
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Old 08-13-2010, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
RJ said that Fain can track Rand, and Mat and Perrin to a lesser degree. This of course fits with the info in the books. Fain marked the three boys for the Dark One, and then he was made into the Dark One's Hound, and that's where he picked up the ability to track them, along with the compulsion to hunt them. His compulsion to hunt Rand is strong; he probably won't bother with hunting Mat or Perrin until Rand is dead.
If Padan Fain Mordeth learns of Mat Cauthon's name on a warrant issued by Tuon, he should be able deduce that Mat Cauthon is a ta'veren in Caemlyn now.
Mat can't channel, he's staying in one place for 30 days, and Tuon's warrant excluding Mat is a clue to his location.
When Rand channels it cloaked his presents from Fain (tGH). But Rand is rarely channeling now, because it gives away his location to Moridin. So if Rand comes to Caemlyn, Fain Mordeth will know a second ta'veren is within Caemlyn too. If Rand channels in Caemlyn, Moridin will know this location too.
Yes, Fain was given an ability to track Rand, Mat and Perrin by the Dark One. But does his abilities include "reading ta'veren" or not?
I guess probably no ... but it is an open question. It matters, because of the good chance Fain and Luca will meet in ToM book, in Lugard. Why does it manner? Because Luca is ta'veren.

Luca, I think will learn there are places his Circus is not welcome ... in contrast his prior belief, stated below:

Quote:
. Surely you do not want to travel into riots.”

“Greatly exaggerated, my Lady. Greatly exaggerated. Where there are crowds, people want to be entertained. And where people want to be entertained, my show is always welcome.” Luca hesitated, then stepped closer to the coach.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 13 "A Small Room in Sienda" - Elayne point of view, with Valan Luca, during their 1st meeting
Luca's arrival into Lugard is not going to be welcomed at all. Fain will not want Luca as a house guest, at all.


-------------------------------------------------


King Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy is, the reborn soul of Balwen Mayel; who was the last King of Aridhol.

Roedran is one of over twenty characters, who have been reborn again, by the Wheel. Twenty characters at least, who I have found connections between.
Some examples of suspected reborn souls in this current Age include:
Egwene = Soldier Amyrlin 'Rashima Kerenmosa' (Trolloc Wars)
Nynaeve = Soldier Queen (Trolloc Wars Era); Queen Ethenielle Kirukon Materasu (Breaking Era)
Tuon = Queen Eldrene
Mat = Aemon
Valan Luca = Luca
Amathera = Panarch Farede ('War of the Hundred Years', at the end)
Sorilea = Solinda (War of the Shadow & Breaking Era)
Moiraine = Mordaine; Dunsinin
Kiruna = Isebaille Tobanyi
Elaida = Tetsuan
Cadsuane = Latra Posae Decume
Verin = Santhra
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Old 08-13-2010, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Because Luca is ta'veren.[/INDENT]....

King Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy is, the reborn soul of Balwen Mayel
Felix, you have a particular brand of crazy that can't be beat! Also, No.

(though admittedly I will take guilty pleasure in reading your luca theory if you complete it)

Last edited by Bayle; 08-13-2010 at 10:03 AM.
  #18  
Old 08-13-2010, 01:22 PM
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Default This is the "Wheel" of Time, Rand is not the only person reborn; 3 more ta'veren gasp

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayle View Post
Felix, you have a particular brand of crazy that can't be beat! Also, No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax
Because Luca is ta'veren.[/INDENT]....

King Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy is, the reborn soul of Balwen Mayel
(though admittedly I will take guilty pleasure in reading your luca theory if you complete it)
Oh, another reader!

This is the Wheel of Time, not a world setting where time is solely linear. Souls are reborn. Rand is not the only character, to be reborn. Even King Roedran was reborn in a new body in a prior era. Maybe not the next though!

You know the first time I read tEofW, all what 20 years, I didn't make realization how important concept of circular time is, to the overall arc of this story. Well, I did read it in one sitting ... as an action-adventure ... on a hot sunny Santa Barbara beach. Hmm... let's say I was distracted at times.
Now a days I see literary connections to Mark Twain, One Thousand and One Nights, Panchatantra, William Butler Yeats among many others. None of which I noticed upon my first reading of tEofW book 20 years ago.
Chuckles... you know, Luca being ta'veren isn't even the most crazy ta'veren theory around.

I'm been looking back at important scenes of in both Elayne and Egwene experiences, even they have multiple situations which suggest they are in fact ta'veren.
I suspect that's one reason Birgitte, actively avoids Egwene. Birgitte knows who Egwene really is, she knows Egwene is a ta'veren too.

Jenn at Dragonmount, thinks I'm totally nuts to see additional ta'veren being in the story. Let alone at least three ta'veren in the story: Luca, Egwene, Elayne. We'll see soon enough, who's nuts.
Jenn hasn't paid close enough attention to what the definition of a ta'veren is ... and how RJ uses certain words in a special or unusual manner in scenes of conflict. That's why she's missed it, like I did too for years.
I will finish my Luca essay.
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  #19  
Old 08-13-2010, 03:04 PM
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I'm assuming she told you that RJ said none of the major female characters are ta'veren? Also, everyone is reborn. Only some are bound to the Wheel, but only permanent death prevents rebirth even for those that aren't. RJ has confirmed that even Sammael will be reborn.
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Old 08-13-2010, 03:50 PM
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I'm assuming she told you that RJ said none of the major female characters are ta'veren?
Didn't he say that there were no female ta'veren in the story -- although there is nothing keeping females from being ta'veren there just don't happen to be any at this time -- not limiting it to the main female characters?

I really wish someone would ask Brandon if that is still true, especially whether Egwene has become ta'veren.

I have trouble with the idea that Rand's (and the other two) ta'veren-ness is so strong that it is driving all of the fortuitous coincidences in the White Tower leading to Egwne's election as Amyrlin -- either rebel amyrlin or combined amyrlin.

I doubt that Valan Luca is ta'veren; I would have expected to see much more ta'veren wierdness when Mat was traveling with him if he were, stemming from the interaction of two ta'veren in close proximity.
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