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  #1  
Old 08-18-2010, 06:06 AM
Wizardous Wizardous is offline
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Default The sinister nature of the angreal

I didn't find any other post or theory regarding this (I didn't look too hard though), so my bad if it's already been discussed.

I have thought about the angreal and sa'angreal in WoT for some time. I'm actually pretty sure that the principle of making them isn't
going to be approached in the books, but I got lightning-struck by an idea a while ago. It's actually the reason why I made an account
here .

So, what do we know about the angreal?

1. They are rare, even when compared to ter'angreal.

2. They vary in strength.

3. Attempting to use Saidar through them is described by Elayne as attempting it through a woman in a circle (it's mentioned in Path of Daggers while they use the Bowl of Winds).
I don't know the proper words for it, since I haven't read the books in English, but I hope that you understand what I mean here.

4. (Somewhat irrevelant perhaps) Some, perhaps even most of them, resemble a human figure.

5. There are different angreal for men and women.


Thinking about these things, I came to a conclusion that they're not likely created the same way as ter'angreal.
Elayne could mass-produce the ring-ter'angreal, and if that could've been done with angreal in the Age of Legends,
there would be a lot more angreal and sa'angreal. I believe that making an includes a very specific cost. In the Age of Legends,
when everything was abundant, what could the cost be to make angreal so rare?


The maker's ability to channel. Perhaps even their very soul.


Think about it: The varying strength of angreal, the fact that some of them resemble wise and peaceful men and women,
the rarity, the way how they're used (like being in a circle), the gender requirements.

It might be that the greatest contribution to science that an old channeler in the Age of Legends could do was to create/become an angreal,
so that younger researchers could use his power with theirs to extend to even greater achievements. That could also explain why there are so few,
it would be a great sacrifice after all.

Sa'angreal were perhaps made in the same fashion with the exception that they were made using circles, where each circle member either became part of the Sa'angreal
or at least lost their ability to channel. That would mean there's a "power cap", ie. Choedan Kals were perhaps made with a circle of 72 powerful channelers.
The leader of the circle or the most represented gender would define whether the Sa'angreal could be used by male or female channelers.


Okay, it was a pretty crackpot idea, but to me it actually makes some sense. What do you think?
  #2  
Old 08-18-2010, 06:21 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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I think you are right about this being a crackpot idea.

First of all, there was a pretty strong taboo on such actions. As evidence of that, the Shadow did have games and such which contained human souls (or whatever), and possession of such was an automatic death sentence if discovered.

Second, there is Be'lal's reference to involvement in making sa'angreal in general, and perhaps Callandor particularly, together with LTT. Yet both he and LTT had obviously still been able to channel even after they ended up on different sides of the conflict.

Third, your idea rather badly fails to explain how there could be sa'angreal that only men can use. Any circle would require female participation, and thus a saidar component.

Still, for a crackpot idea, it is a fairly good one. And welcome to the Board!
  #3  
Old 08-18-2010, 09:49 AM
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I don't agree with the theory, but I do like its creativity.
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  #4  
Old 08-18-2010, 12:26 PM
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Here's a crackpot extension? Do we "know" that the creation of Angreal was known/done in the Age of Legends? (EDIT: yes we do. Ok... ignore that extension)

While it was taboo then, isn't it possible that some culture outside of AOL-society was behind the otherwise crackpot building of Angreal?

And...if there was no sacrifice involved in the creation of Angreal and Sa'Angreal, why so few? I'd think each channeler would want one, and at least some of the crafters would be happy to create many. There should (without another reason against it) be tens of thousands of Angreal around, probably more than Ter'Angreal. I can only think the creation was a far-rarer gift, or that it carried a cost.

That makes me wonder. Angreal and Sa'Angreal are different. (http://de-de.facebook.com/topic.php?...88&topic=15155) Their workings seem to differ slightly. Is there any reason why there is no mention of a Sa'Angreal weaker than a powerful Angreal held in the right hands? Or a reason the strongest Angreal aren't stronger than Sa'Angreal in Rand's hands?

I'm running on the theory (I don't know if it's been debuffed) that Angreal magnify power while Sa'Angreal provide it (meaning, less tied to your own individual strength...). If it's been debuffed, nevermind

Last edited by Abraxas; 08-18-2010 at 09:19 PM.
  #5  
Old 08-18-2010, 01:04 PM
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Hmmm can't be certain on this one, but I think it was said in the books that the Choedan Kal were made in the Age of Legends (been awhile since I read the books all the way through)

If I'm correct then the knowledge was there in the Age of Legends.

Quote:
Sa'angreal were perhaps made in the same fashion with the exception that they were made using circles, where each circle member either became part of the Sa'angreal
or at least lost their ability to channel. That would mean there's a "power cap", ie. Choedan Kals were perhaps made with a circle of 72 powerful channelers.
The leader of the circle or the most represented gender would define whether the Sa'angreal could be used by male or female channelers.
The most represented gender idea doesn't work as any circle with five or more channelers must have more women than men in it.

On the whole I like this crackpot idea, but I doubt that it has any truth in it.
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  #6  
Old 08-18-2010, 01:54 PM
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Thanks for the welcome! I'll try to cover the biggest holes of this crackpot theory with some more (likely incorrect) assumptions .Let's see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
First of all, there was a pretty strong taboo on such actions. As evidence of that, the Shadow did have games and such which contained
human souls (or whatever), and possession of such was an automatic death sentence if discovered.
The books are so full of lore that I can't remember it all, so the only defence I can come up with is that maybe it wasn't thought of
as evil when it came to angreal, since their making would've of course required willingness. You couldn't just steal someones
soul and transform it into an angreal. Perhaps it wasn't a taboo during the utopia stage of AoL before the war. Perhaps it was
thought to be noble and using an angreal was an honor. The shadow then twisted the idea of implementing souls
inside things and came up with sadistic games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Second, there is Be'lal's reference to involvement in making sa'angreal in general, and perhaps Callandor particularly, together with LTT.
Yet both he and LTT had obviously still been able to channel even after they ended up on different sides of the conflict.
Ouch, good point there. Well, it's possible that the making of angreal required also other channeling, for example similar channeling
that is used to make ter'angreal. Be'lal and Lews Therin, being very important generals etc. of their time, weren't the ones donating
their soul/channeling abilities, though they were still involved in the making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Third, your idea rather badly fails to explain how there could be sa'angreal that only men can use. Any circle would require female participation, and thus a saidar component.
Yea, I realized the more-represented-gender idea was flawed, since circles always need to have more women involved than men.
Maybe the gender of the leader of the circle defined the gender requirement of the sa'angreal. It would mean that the female
version of the Choedan Kal was a little less powerful than the male version, though. However, it's never said that they were equal in power,
only that they were the two most powerful. Maybe it was defined some other way, I don't know about that.

Well, that's a lot of perhapses and maybes. But aren't the least probable theories always right?
  #7  
Old 08-18-2010, 07:33 PM
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You might try checking the BWB. Angreal and sa'angreal were made in the Age of Legends. Angreal and sa'angreal are similar; sa'angreal are just more powerful. They are rare because so many of them were lost during the Breaking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 2 - The One Power and the True Source

One of the ways to reduce the chance of accidental stilling or burnout is to use angreal and sa'angreal, artifacts made during the Age of Legends and perhaps earlier which enhance the channeler's ability to draw and focus the One Power. An angreal allows the channeler to safely control a greater amount of the power than she or he could possibly draw unaided. Sa'angreal are similar, but much more powerful. There are considerable variations among angreal and sa'angreal, but in general a sa'angreal can be said to allow one to channel as much more of the One Power over that of an angreal as the angreal does over channeling unaided. Both angreal and sa'angreal were keyed during their making for use by either men or women. A woman cannot use one made for a man and vice versa. There are rumors of angreal and sa'angreal usable by both men and women, but they remain unconfirmed.

Relatively few angreal have survived since the Age of Legends, and far fewer, only a handful, of the more powerful sa'angreal. The knowledge and skills required for their making was lost during the Breaking of the World.
Also, we know from RJ signing reports that Callandor was manufactured during the War of Power (as were the Choedan Kal - see the Strike at Shayol Ghul or the BWB for a discussion), and the reason that Callandor was not buffered like other sa'angreal was a manufacturing flaw:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting

JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?
RJ: Yes

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?
RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?
RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)
So these things were mass produced during the Age of Legends. In an Age that was often described as 'idyllic' there is not a very high probability that such manufacture involved the use of a soul.

Finally, Elayne believes that she might be able to make angreal and sa'angreal with further study:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 33 - A Question of Crimson

"Don't you understand?" Elayne broke in, haughtiness all gone in excitement and fervor. She leaned forward to put a hand on Nynaeve's knee, and her eyes shone, she was so delighted with herself. "It is a ter'angreal, Nynaeve. And I think I can make one." She said each word slowly and deliberately, then laughed and rushed on. "If I can make this one, I can make others. Maybe I can even make angreal and sa'angreal. No one in the Tower has been able to do that in thousands of years!" Straightening, she shivered, and laid fingers across her mouth. "I never really thought of making anything myself before. Not anything useful. I remember seeing a craftsman once, a man who had made some chairs for the palace. They were not gilded, or elaborately carved they were meant for the servants' hall but I could see the pride in his eyes. Pride in what he had made, a thing well crafted. I would love to feel that, I think. Oh, if we only knew a fraction of what the Forsaken do. The knowledge of the Age of Legends inside their heads, and they use it to serve the Shadow. Think what we could do with it. Think what we could make." She took a deep breath, dropping her hands in her lap, her enthusiasm barely diminished. "Well, be that as it may, I'll wager I could puzzle out how Whitebridge was made, too. Buildings like spun glass, but stronger than steel. And cuendillar, and "
  #8  
Old 08-21-2010, 06:41 AM
Wizardous Wizardous is offline
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One thing that crossed my mind today:

If angreal and sa'angreal were mass produced in the Age of Legends, but the secrets of making them were lost in the Breaking,
why haven't the Forsaken made any angreal themselves? They don't seem to have forgotten the Age of Legends and all the
fancy stuff of that age.

I find it hard to believe that no Forsaken has the specific talent to make angreal (especially if there's something about Be'lal and LTT
participating in the making of Callandor or another sa'angreal). If Elayne thinks that with a little research she could be able to
produce them, it can't be that hard. Yet it is said many times in the books that some of the Forsaken (for example Sammael
and Graendal at one point if my memory serves me right) were/are searching for angreal they could use. It hasn't even crossed
their minds to make one.

Either

A) Creating is a somewhat rare talent, and none of the Forsaken have it. Nice planning, DO. Why not find a darkfriend channeler
with the talent and drag him to Shayol Ghul and teach him to "MAKE SOME ANGREAL FOR MY FORSAKEN SO THEY CAN KICK
DRAGON'S ASS BIG TIME?"

or

B) Making isn't as easy as Elayne thinks. Perhaps it takes a lot of time (weeks or months or so). Perhaps it needs some rare
material. Whatever it is, none of the Forsaken haven't even thought about making an angreal.
  #9  
Old 08-21-2010, 06:57 AM
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Maybe Be'lal was the only one with the actual Talent, and he didn't consider it worth the effort since he was going to get Callandor anyway.

I also think that A) Elayne underestimates how difficult it is, and B) Elayne is rather Talented herself in this regard. So it wouldn't be easy for her, and it would be basically impossible for most who had the Talent, unless they had gotten specific training from a master at the art.

So, all in all, Be'lal could have revived this art, if he had bothered to. Perhaps Rand can do so too, now, but he has the same problem Bilbo had when first meeting Gollum: "Time! Time!"
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:15 PM
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I will add that another reason for the Forsaken not making angreal might be that it requires a lot of Power. More than any of the Forsaken can manage without linking or an angreal to work with and as they are unwilling to work together and having angreal would negate the need of making one...

As for the DO's plan: I doubt he sees this as a problem. In fact I think it might be the reverse. If his Forsaken need more Power to follow his orders there is always the True Power and when this isn't necessary it's best to keep the field of play level as it were.
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Old 08-21-2010, 03:05 PM
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To add on to your points about the DO - it doesn't seem to me that he wants to beat Rand anyways. So the argument that he should be after getting his minions more power to 'win', really falls apart when you consider 'winning' from the DO's view point.

Verin said the Last Battle's not going to be fought the way Rand thinks it is...the DO has an agenda we have yet to figure out.
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Old 08-21-2010, 04:33 PM
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It probably requires both someone with the talent of making them and a large circle. And then there is the possibility that it doesn't always turn out right...Elayne only gets the ter'angreal right every now and then, and I think she needs to link with a man to get the colors right on the stone ring.
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Old 08-21-2010, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizardous View Post
One thing that crossed my mind today:

If angreal and sa'angreal were mass produced in the Age of Legends, but the secrets of making them were lost in the Breaking, why haven't the Forsaken made any angreal themselves? They don't seem to have forgotten the Age of Legends and all the fancy stuff of that age.
I think RJ's answer about why Aginor/Dashiva wasn't busy making more Shadowspawn applies to this question, too.

The tools needed to make the tools to make the tools to make shadowspawn don't exist in the Third Age.

If Elayne does rediscover how to make angreal and sa'angreal, then she's basically going to have to reinvent the 'tools' needed to make them bigger and better, too.

Another point to consider: Moridin was a philosopher, Semirhage was a physician, Greandal was a headshrinker, Moghedien was an investment banker -- etc, etc. Only Lanfear and Bel'al seem to have anything near the job history needed to suggest they know more than the general principles of making *angreal.
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Old 08-22-2010, 04:32 AM
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Men could make ter'angreal, that much is at least comfirmed. Rereads are useful, now and then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS, Chapter 5, A Tale of Blood
He froze. Jorlen Corbesan had been one of the most talented Aes Sedai before the Breaking, a man who had crafted some of the most amazing ter'angreal Rand had ever seen. Except Rand had not seen them. Those were Lews Therin's memories, not his. Jorlen's research facility of Sharom had been destroyed—the man himself killed—by the backlash of Power from the Bore.
Of course, this doesn't tell us anything about making angreal and sa'angreal.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:53 PM
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Generally what ever women can do using the OP so can men and visa versa though their methods of doing it may differ.

As WH points out the tools to make the tools are not around. Say you want to forge a sword and you have a lump of ore. Without the tools you first will have to make a hammer, and a forge, and a bellows to heat the fire etc. If you can't make a hammer first you won't be making any sword.
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Old 08-23-2010, 05:07 PM
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I like the theory but doubt there is any truth behind it.

As to the reason the Forsaken have not made any angreal or sa'angreal it could be that, aside from lacking anyone with the talent, it could be that doing so would simply require a circle larger than they could produce. Do we have any quotes indicating that the crafting of angreal could be done by a single channeler or with only one side of the One Power? This leads me to believe that at some point over the next few books, probably after the retaking of the Black Tower, the Asha'man may join up with Elayne and other sisters and crafting badassery is sure to ensue.
 


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