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  #1  
Old 09-22-2010, 08:22 AM
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Default Demandred, the most dissapointing of the lot?

It's a series long question where he is, but I'd like to discuss another side of it.

Somehow I have set Demandred's bar really high given the ineptitude the rest of the Chosen have shown. But at the same time I fear Jordan/Sanderson have left it too late.

In order to like/find the character intriguing readers must have time to get to know them and given time to adjust. And I fear we are beyond that point as readers.

I see 2 options. Either Demandred is introduced at the last minute and is destroyed or he's been there all along.

The 1st one would make Demandred indeed a failure as a character potential. The second one is more plausible, but I believe we haven't seem him too much and hence he can't be one of the more developed chars, thus making him a disappointment. Smaller disappointment, but one nonetheless.

what are your thought about this?

Last edited by looqas; 09-23-2010 at 12:35 AM.
  #2  
Old 09-22-2010, 08:27 AM
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I think that this time, Demandred is going for the title "Destroyer of Hope". He's gonna subvert a sizeable number of people, mainly in armies, and thereby make the attempts to withstand the Trolloc attacks fail. For instance, if he gets a couple of Aiel clans to fight the Wetlanders, that would cause massive mayhem.
  #3  
Old 09-22-2010, 09:53 AM
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Why would he want Sammael's name though? Making a new name for himself okay, but why would he want Sammael's?
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  #4  
Old 09-22-2010, 10:25 AM
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I think there's still time for Demandred to do become awesome, as long as he DOES something visible early in this book. Until now at least, he's been very disappointing and a very one-sided character.
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:38 PM
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I personal think that Demandred is either leading the boardlander army or is in the Black Tower next to Taim or he replaced Taim.

Quote:
He says to remember the old saying, "Let the lord of chaos rule," and the Asha'man laugh.(KoD Epilogue)
Quote:
Demandred tells them to tell Sammael nothing, then passes on the Great Lord's orders beginning with, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." Mesaana thinks the plan is a gamble.(LoC Prologue)

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  #6  
Old 09-22-2010, 04:40 PM
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Note to Artur: quote tags are not self-closing. Slash goes before.
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:47 PM
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Thanks Terez, I wondered what was wrong
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:27 AM
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I've seen this kinda idea posted a few times. Demandred will be/is a flop, there's not enough time etc.

I disagree. I believe he is the most intriguing of all the forsaken simply because we have seen the least of him. We have seen the rest flounder and make silly assumptions while he has bided his time and gone about his business.

To make a comparison- Demandred is Gabbo from that episode of the simpsons. We get little teasers and mentions every now and then to whet the appetite. They have teased us for so long that the anticipation is really high. Yes, it will fall short in a lot of peoples opinions but thats just the way it goes.

Seriously, Dem could show up wielding a double bladed ashanderi, hurling balefire from his eyes and kill Rand, moridin, taim, Mat and Perrin in 5 seconds, sleep with Min, elayne, aviendha, nynaeve, mesanna, lanfear and graendal simultaneously(hopefully for longer than 5 seconds) and finish by climing the tower of Ghenjie using elaida's skin as a cloak screaming "I AM NAE'BLIS" at the top of his lungs in HIGH CHANT and some people would still say it was an anticlimax.(especially if he lets elayne and cadsuane live!)

I think we will just have to wait til the reveal and judge it from there.
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
Seriously, Dem could show up wielding a double bladed ashanderi, hurling balefire from his eyes and kill Rand, moridin, taim, Mat and Perrin in 5 seconds, sleep with Min, elayne, aviendha, nynaeve, mesanna, lanfear and graendal simultaneously(hopefully for longer than 5 seconds) and finish by climing the tower of Ghenjie using elaida's skin as a cloak screaming "I AM NAE'BLIS" at the top of his lungs in HIGH CHANT and some people would still say it was an anticlimax.(especially if he lets elayne and cadsuane live!)
I so called that in a Theory 2 books ago.
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Last edited by Casabamelon; 04-04-2011 at 08:26 AM.
  #10  
Old 09-27-2010, 08:35 AM
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Gotta agree with those in the "won't be disappointing" camp. Firstly, you know he's been successful at whatever he's doing, so clearly he's been effective and shouldn't be a disappointment in that regard. Second, as everyone is pointing out, he's got this air of mystery and infallibility still. Much like the Chosen did at the beginning of the books, when they were seemingly omnipresent and omnipotent.

Personally I think he's hiding in the Tower or something really, really sneaky. The White Tower, that is.
  #11  
Old 09-27-2010, 09:20 AM
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Rahvin's entire plot line was pretty much all contained in a single book, and I feel I got to know him as a character, he got sufficient face time, and was killed in a significant way. For that matter, we haven't really met Mesaana either besides the vague notion that she is being sneaky in the WT (and similarly, Demandred is apparently being sneaky in the BT in a similar, if not more potent capacity). Be'lal's story arc was just one book and we only got a couple chapters with him, and Balthamel and Moghedien were pretty much completely worthless.

Demandred has 2 books to make his name, which I think is plenty of time to develop him into a formidable evil captain (especially as a field commander with the world's greatest battle about to commence), even if we haven't met his alter ego. Of course, he may end up being ineffective as well, but you certainly can't count him out prematurely as he has already done more than several dead Forsaken I could name simply by still being alive and at large (which seems pretty steep qualifications for Forsaken these days).
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Rahvin's entire plot line was pretty much all contained in a single book, and I feel I got to know him as a character, he got sufficient face time, and was killed in a significant way. For that matter, we haven't really met Mesaana either besides the vague notion that she is being sneaky in the WT (and similarly, Demandred is apparently being sneaky in the BT in a similar, if not more potent capacity). Be'lal's story arc was just one book and we only got a couple chapters with him, and Balthamel and Moghedien were pretty much completely worthless.

Demandred has 2 books to make his name, which I think is plenty of time to develop him into a formidable evil captain (especially as a field commander with the world's greatest battle about to commence), even if we haven't met his alter ego. Of course, he may end up being ineffective as well, but you certainly can't count him out prematurely as he has already done more than several dead Forsaken I could name simply by still being alive and at large (which seems pretty steep qualifications for Forsaken these days).
Reminder that Rahvin was physically present in the story since TDR, killed off in TFoH, and the effects of his rule in Andor are still being felt as of KoD.

That's actually doing pretty well, comparatively, to other Forsaken.

We have also Mesaana "around" quite often. More often at the Forsaken tea parties, but also to her subordinates in the Black Ajah, and she has been "publicly" humiliated by Shaidar Haran. That's more we've seen of her than a LOT of other Forsaken. We just still don't have a POV from her.
  #13  
Old 09-27-2010, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by arioch View Post
We have also Mesaana "around" quite often. More often at the Forsaken tea parties, but also to her subordinates in the Black Ajah, and she has been "publicly" humiliated by Shaidar Haran. That's more we've seen of her than a LOT of other Forsaken. We just still don't have a POV from her.
Thats really not true, at all. Sammael and Graendal both got much more face time. As did Asmodean, Lanfear, Ishamael/Moridin, and Semirhage (in captivity). Maybe Semirhage is equal. That puts her squarely in the bottom half, and its worse given that you can hardly count Be'lal, Aginor, and Balthamel, given that Be'lal especially is basically a throwaway plot point meant solely to round out the number to 13. Even Aginor and Balthamel are gone for a good 4 or 5 books... in terms of time on screen/mentioned weighted by the # of pages we've had to explore her character, I would say Mesaana is one of the least well developed of the Chosen.
  #14  
Old 09-27-2010, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
Reminder that Rahvin was physically present in the story since TDR, killed off in TFoH, and the effects of his rule in Andor are still being felt as of KoD.
That's actually doing pretty well, comparatively, to other Forsaken.
Obviously all of the Forsaken are going to have some face time. I'm not saying Rahvin was ineffectual by any means. In fact, he made a very strong impact compared to most Forsaken, and is/was in fact one of my favorite Chosen to date. I was merely referring to the fact that he is barely mentioned in TDR, and really only featured prominantly in tFoH, yet still made quite an impact as far as the Forsaken go. My response was merely intended to point out to the original poster that Demandred does, in fact, have plenty of time during the course of the next to books to make an impact, or not, accordingly. Rahvin did it without needing 10 books of characterization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arioch
We have also Mesaana "around" quite often. More often at the Forsaken tea parties, but also to her subordinates in the Black Ajah, and she has been "publicly" humiliated by Shaidar Haran. That's more we've seen of her than a LOT of other Forsaken. We just still don't have a POV from her.*
We have a very limited exposition of her character from what we've seen of her on screen, and what would you say she has actually done? I mean, besides sneaking around in the White Tower and doing... what, exactly? Something, surely, but the point is we don't really know. I don't consider a Forsaken effective simply by being seen in the background as a secondary character during a number of scenes (Demandred has been seen at Forsaken "tea parties" almost as often anyways) or by being raped by the Dark One's avatar, but by what they have accomplished during the course of the books. And Mesaana hasn't accomplished much, even compared to the low standard set by the majority of the Forsaken.

Which leads us back to the original question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by looqas
...I fear Jordan/Sanderson have left it too late... The 1st one would make Demandred indeed a failure as a character potential. The second one is more plausible, but I believe we haven't seem him too much and hence he can't be one of the more developed chars, thus making him a disappointment. Smaller disappointment, but one nonetheless.
I don't know whether or not Demandred will live up to his potential as powerful badass battle commander Forsaken. However, he certainly could given the nature of the final two books and his buildup hitherto. And I really hope he does.

*: Bolded for emphasis
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  #15  
Old 09-28-2010, 01:11 AM
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Good conversation so far. Good points and certainly has given me thoughts that I had not realized earlier. I refer to those earlier Forsaken being able to maximize their impact and character development within one book only.

This actually makes me happier puppy and wanting to see what Jordan/Sanderson will make out of Dem.
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:02 AM
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Maybe it's too obvious, but I've felt for some time that he and Taim were the same person. I recall that Demandred was always jealous of living in LTT's shadow, which he's doing again with Rand, and yet he's building his own army within the Black Tower.

I don't think his character will be a flop and am excited to see how he's played into the next two books.
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:46 AM
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Maybe it's too obvious, but I've felt for some time that he and Taim were the same person. I recall that Demandred was always jealous of living in LTT's shadow, which he's doing again with Rand, and yet he's building his own army within the Black Tower.

I don't think his character will be a flop and am excited to see how he's played into the next two books.
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  #18  
Old 10-07-2010, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Spazzy19 View Post
Maybe it's too obvious, but I've felt for some time that he and Taim were the same person. I recall that Demandred was always jealous of living in LTT's shadow, which he's doing again with Rand, and yet he's building his own army within the Black Tower.

I don't think his character will be a flop and am excited to see how he's played into the next two books.
Taimandred has been personally debunked several times by RJ. Taim is not Demandred, Demandred is not Taim. Yeah, it reads like that at first in the books but its just a coincidence. The books actually go out of their way to completely debunk it later on in Winters Heart.


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  #19  
Old 10-07-2010, 11:50 AM
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Taim is not Demandred, Demandred is not Taim.
Back on the original topic, I think that of the two, Taim is going to turn out to be the more effective villian. Demandred thinks of himself as a General, but he has little or no experience in Third Age warfare and managing Third Age armies. There are a lot of strategic and tactical "truths" that don't change with technology, but the way they are applied changes drastically.
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Old 10-07-2010, 11:54 AM
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Back on the original topic, I think that of the two, Taim is going to turn out to be the more effective villian. Demandred thinks of himself as a General, but he has little or no experience in Third Age warfare and managing Third Age armies. There are a lot of strategic and tactical "truths" that don't change with technology, but the way they are applied changes drastically.
No experience that we "know" of...its possible he's been quite busy in his time off-screen.
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