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  #1  
Old 09-23-2010, 08:06 AM
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Default TWOK-the game is afoot (major spoilers)

Main reason to start this thread is to find out who has actually finished the book

So it seems there are 2 separate conspiracies going on:

1 Taravanghian's plot to kill leaders to prepare for the dark times to come. I'm not sure how killing Dalinar is going to help though. Unless it's a lie to help justify Szeth's actions to himself, though I don't see the need for that.

2 The Ghostbloods and their attempt to kill Jasnah. Since she has been under Taravanghian's eye for a long time, why would he not just send Szeth after her if he was behind the attempt on her life? Why such a convoluted plot, using poison?
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post

1 Taravanghian's plot to kill leaders to prepare for the dark times to come. I'm not sure how killing Dalinar is going to help though. Unless it's a lie to help justify Szeth's actions to himself, though I don't see the need for that.
It is not only killing the leaders to prepare for the dark times. it is also that he wants chaos to sweep into the other nations around him, so he can play the white knight and take control for the good of all the nations.

As to killing Dalinar, He wants him killed because he is close to uniting the highprinces by taking control of the war camp.
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Old 09-23-2010, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post

1 Taravanghian's plot to kill leaders to prepare for the dark times to come.
This is really a difficult one to figure out at this point, Definately a Doing "bad for good reasons" plot but also is he really collecting the Death Prophisies for good? or to keep them from being heard anywhere else?
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
2 The Ghostbloods and their attempt to kill Jasnah. Since she has been under Taravanghian's eye for a long time, why would he not just send Szeth after her if he was behind the attempt on her life? Why such a convoluted plot, using poison?

I think that if Jasnah were killed in that way, it would alert Dalinar, and it would create more questions on the true reasons or who was behind the killer of the king.
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Old 09-23-2010, 02:44 PM
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I plan to pick up the book on my way home from work today. I should be able to contribute to the discussion within a few days. I am excited- a brand new BS novel, and then a brand new WoT novel. Woohoo!
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
2 The Ghostbloods and their attempt to kill Jasnah. Since she has been under Taravanghian's eye for a long time, why would he not just send Szeth after her if he was behind the attempt on her life? Why such a convoluted plot, using poison?
It seemed to me like Taravanghian is working independently of the Ghostbloods. The Ghostbloods might be run by Thaidakar:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWoK Kindle Location 14885
"...why Thaidakar would risk this?" Amaran was saying, speaking in a soft voice. "But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?"
From when Amaran takes the Shardblade.

Gavilar first suspects Szeth of being sent by Thaidakar in the Prologue.

Don't have page numbers because I didn't want to bring the hardcover to school.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:22 PM
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Dalinar's in the way because he thinks "unite them" means unite the Alethi. Given their culture, a united Alethi nation would be a huge obstacle to worldwide unity, which is what's actually needed to survive the Desolation. Of course, at the rate he's going he'll realize sooner or later than Alethi lighteyes aren't really at the center of the universe after all, but there's no way Taravanghian could predict that based on the information he has.

I had some questions:
1) what kind of spren do people think empower the Soulcasters? I'd guess those things working with Shallan are Truthspren or something along those lines, but there are two kinds of Soulcasters. What kind is Jasnah?
2) What happened to the 9 Heralds who deserted? Are they still around? Is Wit one of them?
3) What happened to corrupt the Shardblades? Windrunners used to use them all the time, but Syl says she doesn't like them. And if Plate interferes with Surgebinding, why didn't it do so when Radiants wore it?
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:08 PM
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3) What happened to corrupt the Shardblades? Windrunners used to use them all the time, but Syl says she doesn't like them. And if Plate interferes with Surgebinding, why didn't it do so when Radiants wore it?
I think it was the shardplate that she did not like, not the shard blades?
My Mistake - it was the shardblade ..

See the Alethi Script crack info on Timewastersguide.com It reveals A lot! Major Spoilers!
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  #8  
Old 09-23-2010, 10:41 PM
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Dalinar's in the way because he thinks "unite them" means unite the Alethi. Given their culture, a united Alethi nation would be a huge obstacle to worldwide unity, which is what's actually needed to survive the Desolation. Of course, at the rate he's going he'll realize sooner or later than Alethi lighteyes aren't really at the center of the universe after all, but there's no way Taravanghian could predict that based on the information he has.

I had some questions:
1) what kind of spren do people think empower the Soulcasters? I'd guess those things working with Shallan are Truthspren or something along those lines, but there are two kinds of Soulcasters. What kind is Jasnah?
2) What happened to the 9 Heralds who deserted? Are they still around? Is Wit one of them?
3) What happened to corrupt the Shardblades? Windrunners used to use them all the time, but Syl says she doesn't like them. And if Plate interferes with Surgebinding, why didn't it do so when Radiants wore it?
1) Do you have a quote that states Jasnah is a different kind of soulcaster than Shallan?
2) Obviously, Tal is still around. Don't know about the other 8. Don't see any proof that Wit is one, however.
3) Just a guess, but I think surgebinding would drain the gemstones powering the Plate, making it a burden since it would be too heavy to move with uninfused gems.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
1) Do you have a quote that states Jasnah is a different kind of soulcaster than Shallan?
2) Obviously, Tal is still around. Don't know about the other 8. Don't see any proof that Wit is one, however.
3) Just a guess, but I think surgebinding would drain the gemstones powering the Plate, making it a burden since it would be too heavy to move with uninfused gems.
1) In Chapter 72 Jasnah seems to think that Shallan is the same kind of Soulcaster that she herself is.

2) Tal was the one who didn't desert. The 9 who did all seem to be missing.
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Old 09-23-2010, 11:46 PM
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I didn't mean to imply Jasnah and Shallan definitely had different patron spren. There's a 50/50 chance they're the same, but we don't get a Jasnah POV so we don't know what her spren look like.
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Old 09-24-2010, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Xelun View Post
1) In Chapter 72 Jasnah seems to think that Shallan is the same kind of Soulcaster that she herself is.

2) Tal was the one who didn't desert. The 9 who did all seem to be missing.
I thought they all deserted except for the one that died. (Don't remember which one that was, and don't have the book available)
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Old 09-24-2010, 06:12 PM
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I think Syl doesn't like the shardblades because she and the other spren like her were once trapped in them. During Dalinar's vision when the Radiants thrust thier blads into the ground, and then dropped thier armor and walked away, the light went out of them.

I think the light was Syl and other spren like her. Possibly they were used to empower the blades/armor, then when released forgot who/what they were and now that Syl is with Kaladin she's remembering more and more...

It's what I'm going with for now, anyway.

And is Elhokar also a soulcaster? He did mention the symbol heads. Seeing them in mirrors... Sounds like he doesn't know who/what they are.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:31 PM
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I thought they all deserted except for the one that died. (Don't remember which one that was, and don't have the book available)
Talenel'Elin was the one who died in the Prelude battle and thus did not desert. The person who shows up at the end has the same name. We have no idea what happened to the 9 who deserted. Think we're on the same page.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:49 AM
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Default Different kinds of Soulcasters

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Originally Posted by Xelun View Post
1) In Chapter 72 Jasnah seems to think that Shallan is the same kind of Soulcaster that she herself is.
I thought I read that there were two types that didn't require fabrials "Two orders of the Knights Radiant didn't require..." - which seems to be the Jes and Shash, the types we see Szeth/Kaladin and Shallan/Jasnah use.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:07 AM
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Talenel'Elin was the one who died in the Prelude battle and thus did not desert. The person who shows up at the end has the same name. We have no idea what happened to the 9 who deserted. Think we're on the same page.
My bad. So Tal died (thousands of years ago) and is back now, possibly due to their rebirth cycle. I guess he is the harbinger of a new desolation, then.
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:11 PM
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I thought I read that there were two types that didn't require fabrials "Two orders of the Knights Radiant didn't require..." - which seems to be the Jes and Shash, the types we see Szeth/Kaladin and Shallan/Jasnah use.
Szeth and Kaladin aren't Soulcasters. Surgebinding is the catch-all term for all the Radiant talents. Soulcasting is the specific talent of using stormlight to transmute objects.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:12 PM
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This is really a difficult one to figure out at this point, Definately a Doing "bad for good reasons" plot but also is he really collecting the Death Prophisies for good? or to keep them from being heard anywhere else?
I wonder if the death prophecies are similar to Voidbinding, or the same thing.

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Szeth and Kaladin aren't Soulcasters. Surgebinding is the catch-all term for all the Radiant talents. Soulcasting is the specific talent of using stormlight to transmute objects.
Only two orders of the Radiants were Soulcasters. It may be that only two orders had Surgebinders, but it seems that each order had two powers, not just one, judging from the Double Eye of the Almighty:



Whether the Radiants are represented by the large spheres or the small ones, each order is connected to two others, and also to two of the other type of symbol (those might represent the Heralds).

There were two orders who surrendered their Shards at Feverstone keep - the Stonewards (amber...presumably topaz), and the Windrunners (blue...presumably sapphire). Perhaps only these two orders were Shardbearers. The Stonewards are also healers (Soulcasters?), and the Windrunners are also Surgebinders?

In the other vision where Dalinar met Radiants, they were also blue and amber. Same two orders, presumably. I'm guessing there is another order of Surgebinders and another order of Soulcasters that did not carry Shards.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:46 PM
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Default Explain what you mean

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Szeth and Kaladin aren't Soulcasters. Surgebinding is the catch-all term for all the Radiant talents. Soulcasting is the specific talent of using stormlight to transmute objects.
They can soulcast, but you are saying that they aren't soulcasters because soulcasting is a sub set of talents that Surgebinders have?
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:41 PM
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They can't Soulcast, so far as we know. Soulcasting and Surgebinding both manipulate Stormlight, but in completely different ways.
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:05 PM
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Default A little bit less confused

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They can't Soulcast, so far as we know. Soulcasting and Surgebinding both manipulate Stormlight, but in completely different ways.
Hmm - ok, understanding a little bit more and read this on Wikipedia

Quote:
The only two individuals in the book seen to use Surgebinding are Szeth-son-son-Vallano[6], Kaladin[9], and through the visions of Dalinar, members of the Knights Radiant.
So Knights Radiant can Surgebind. But then we have this from Jasnah:

Quote:
"Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe"
Jasnah tells us that two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability. Then, Inhilation, it says in the Ars Arcanum, is associated with the first of ten essences, and is associated to the Sapphire Gemstone (Windrunners?) Also, we are told the Heralds and the Knights Radiant were classically associated with one number and one essence.

Anyway - if it's not spelled out in the books, I believe that Kaladin can learn to Soulcast.
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