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  #41  
Old 09-28-2010, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
Considering the timeline for the last 5 books, the cleansing might be shown again on-screen in TofM
Then maybe it could be that Rand drained the eye back in TEotW!
  #42  
Old 09-28-2010, 04:23 PM
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Then maybe it could be that Rand drained the eye back in TEotW!
Now we know what real use the Eye was meant for!
  #43  
Old 09-28-2010, 05:35 PM
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Then maybe it could be that Rand drained the eye back in TEotW!
That was a very emotional and unexpected moment.

I know I got a little teary eyed.
  #44  
Old 09-28-2010, 07:50 PM
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I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. Based on Jason's writing and the flow of his review, I can't see this part having to do with the Olver discussion. The line that stands out to me the most is "It shows that even the most noble of intentions can have a butterfly effect ripple across the pattern."

Any guesses on the most noble of intentions? What can ripple across the pattern?

I knew Terez's theory of Mat giving up his medallion to help Elayne indirectly leading to Rand's death. Are there any other possibilities or theories?
My guess would be one four things:
1. Something Elder Haman does when he closes the Waygates causes unintended consequences
2. The Seafolk do something noble and it backfires in an unexpected way
3. The Tinkers?
4. The Windfinder Mat uncollared in Ebou Dar gets turned by the 13/13 trick and kills a good guy/gal
  #45  
Old 09-30-2010, 08:28 AM
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Maybe there is a simpler answer to the Olver situation. What if he was kidnapped, and held hostage, by someone that was looking to do Mat harm? The blood could have been from someone getting sliced up by a gateway. That would fulfill some of the criteria for Jason's description of the scene, at least.
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  #46  
Old 10-10-2010, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
The other scene that rocked me to read is one that completely embraces the spirit of the whole series. It's the epitome of what makes The Wheel of Time stand apart from all other fantasy series. To say that I was moved by it is an understatement. After reading it, I honestly began to question whether this story will actually have a happy ending or not. I mean, let's face it. Most of us assume the series will conclude with a victory at the Last Battle, with maybe a few heroic deaths along the way, right? Well this sequence I'm talking about proves that even victory can be disaster. It shows that even the most noble of intentions can have a butterfly-effect ripple across the Pattern. The sequence was beautiful to behold, and that alone makes ToM worth of being on the shelf with your other WoT books.
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. Based on Jason's writing and the flow of his review, I can't see this part having to do with the Olver discussion. The line that stands out to me the most is "It shows that even the most noble of intentions can have a butterfly effect ripple across the pattern."

Any guesses on the most noble of intentions? What can ripple across the pattern?

I knew Terez's theory of Mat giving up his medallion to help Elayne indirectly leading to Rand's death. Are there any other possibilities or theories?
My ideas on the noble intentions:
1. Mat giving up the medallion.
2. Gawyn avenging his mother, protecting his sister.
3. Egwene sending Gawyn away when she hears Rand is coming....to Caemlyn, where Gawyn will (help) kill him.
4. Mat sees Rand dying on the way back from Ghenjei and Travels Moiraine there (assuming he brings along a Traveler to wait for him) and Moiraine kills Rand.
5. Nynaeve going to be with Lan, so she's not there when Rand needs Healing?
6. All of the above.

I don't think that the death of Lan really fits, for a few reasons.

1. Why did Jason mock our general expectation that there will be 'just a few heroic deaths along the way'? Lan is one of the most expected of those deaths, and they even flaunted the fact in the jacket notes. The first sentence of his POV has him riding toward death. The death of Rand, on the other hand, is not 'just another heroic death'. The world doesn't stand a chance without him. He can't die before the Last Battle. Right?

2. Why does he now question whether or not the series will have a happy ending? Keep in mind that Jason is probably just as aware as we of the possible ways Rand can be resurrected, but he probably has the casual reader in mind here. I don't know that the death of Lan would really endanger the end.

3. It could have something to do with Rand being turned to the Shadow, or perhaps a progression of his link with Moridin. But what does that have to do with noble intentions, or victory?

I doubt that they killed Rand off without at least making it absolutely clear why he had to die, but I also doubt they will make it entirely clear how he's going to come back. There's foreshadowing all through the series - enough for us to figure it out already - but the more casual reader might truly be concerned.

It would also explain this bit later in the review:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
We've reached the sunset of this Age, and after reading ToM, I just don't know how it will end anymore.

...Story-wise, the "good guys" are gathered and ready to go. But in fact they're in shambles, just barely held together.
As far as it being the epitome of what makes WoT stand apart...I have a feeling that will come in the form of thematic transformation. It's what RJ was good at. He takes seemingly insignificant details that span the entire series and ties them together for his climaxes. Or rather, he's known exactly where he was going with this from the beginning, and he's purposefully woven those themes together, dropped details in just the right places, waiting to make us all smack our foreheads because we should have seen it all coming.

I find it particularly interesting that Mat is so intricately woven into the two main threads that seem to be leading to Rand's death: Morgase and Moiraine. You might even say that the origin of his luck is tied up with it. You could even say that it really goes back to the instant when he chose to pick up the dagger in Shadar Logoth, the same dagger that eventually gave Rand one of his never-healing Mordred wounds. The Wheel needed one of Rand's friends to help him die, and Mat was woven into the role.

When he was finally Healed of the dagger's influence, we get three immediate proofs of his luck, though the first is somewhat questionable:

1. Mat's duel with Galad and Gawyn, and his wager on it. Both were raised by Morgase as sons, and both are nephews of Moiraine by Taringail. Both are considered blademasters now.

2. Elayne leaving the Tower and wanting her letter carried to Morgase by someone she could trust. This gave Mat his ticket out of the Tower (signed by Siuan, Moiraine's oldest ally); without it, who knows how long he would have been kept there?

3. Mat's gambling luck, which led to him staying in Tar Valon long enough to run into Thom. Thom, once lover of Morgase, future lover of Moiraine.

So, Mat goes to Caemlyn to deliver the letter. There is some mess along the way because of the war that Thom started (on account of yet another lover), but whatever. They meet Aludra along the way. Get to Caemlyn, Mat sneaks over the wall like Rand did in book one, and then he overhears Gaebril's plans to kill the girls. So, Mat goes to Thom and Gill for advice, then delivers the letter, and Gaebril gives him ten gold crowns for his trouble. Mat talks to Tallanvor outside. Tallanvor says of Morgase, 'Her, I serve to the death.' Mat tosses his bag o gold and says 'I'll wager this that Gaebril says the same.' Whatever that means. And then he gives the stakes to Gill to watch.

I find that interesting because Mat seems to see it as a wager against the girls' lives, but that's not what he said. And the consequences of that action? It's hard to say. That letter seems to have been at least part of what helped Morgase fight the Compulsion, especially in the end. She wanted to make the effort because of Elayne. We're not sure how Tallanvor and Gill became acquainted - Tallanvor might have had Mat followed - but what Mat told Gill about Gaebril was probably what led Tallanvor to approaching Morgase about Gaebril's handling of the 'rebellion' in the west (news that was, incidentally, originally brought to Caemlyn by Fain for the purpose of angering Morgase against the Two Rivers). This might have saved Morgase's life, but it also led to the rumors of her 'death'. Bad timing, Rahvin's death?

Not exactly. Moiraine saw in the Rings of Rhuidean that her confrontation with Lanfear would come the morning after news of Morgase came to Cairhien, and it was Mat who delivered the news of her 'death'. Rand supposed that Rahvin had killed her. He blamed himself because he had known that Morgase was Rahvin's captive - Lanfear told him - and he hadn't done anything about it.

So, Mat got Comar in Tear, but Rahvin killed him in Caemlyn, despite the medallion. Rand saved Mat's life with balefire for the second time. Rand's noble intentions helped lead to the rumors of Morgase's death at his own hands, though the thought didn't even cross his mind when he set out for vengeance. And in the meantime, Moiraine goes off to Finnland, bait to bring Mat back.

Aside from meeting Tuon, Mat's Ebou Dar plotline served the purpose of setting up the medallion transfer, both in terms of the gholam and the furthering of the protector relationship with Elayne. Thom stayed with him the whole time, poor guy. It also led to Mat getting to know and trust Birgitte, which might be important to the medallion business.

I am starting to think Mat will be there when Rand dies. I am also wondering if Moiraine's questions will come into play:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

Week 19 Question: What were Moiraine's three questions that she asked the Aelfinn and what were their answers? If the whole answer is RAFO could you give us one Q&A?
Robert Jordan Answers: Sorry, guys. This one is a big time RAFO.

We've had Moiraine's POV a few times since then, and from what she said to Rand - that she only knew nothing of the future other than one thing that did not concern him - my best bet is that her answers were 'obscure'. I also wonder about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 15 - Into the Doorway
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
"Why can't you go there twice, Moiraine?" he called after her. "Why not?" He very nearly asked why they worried about iron and musical instruments, too, and bit his tongue. He could not know about those if he had not understood what they were saying.

She paused at the door to the hall, and it was impossible to see if she was looking at the ter'angreal or at Rand. "If I knew everything, Matrim, I would not need to ask questions." She peered into the room a moment longer she was staring at Rand then glided away without another word.
The obvious interpretation is that she was musing on Rand's questions. She was hesitant to ask any questions concerning Rand because of the dangers of asking questions touching the Shadow. She says that the answers are true so long as they relate to your own future, so she might have been hesitant to ask any questions about anything else. But it may be that her answers concern Rand, anyway. It would make sense.
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  #47  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:10 AM
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Any guesses on the most noble of intentions? What can ripple across the pattern

Interesting question, Crue.


I'm not sure what Jason is referring to, in his TofM book review... however, I was and am working on a Theory about the ordering of events leading up to the hugely important Tower of Ghenjei scenes--I suspect Jason and I thinking about the same event.


Nynaeve's use of 'Belief' in a Dream World to literally change the outcome of events.


What are 'Nynaeve's Noble Intentions', at the Tower of Ghenjei?

  • To Seek to Protect Mat Cauthon life, at the risk to her own life and everyone else's.
  • To Seek to Help Save Moiraine Sedai live, past exiting the Tower of Ghenjei. (Moghedien and Shadowspawn are waiting to attack anyone exiting Tower of Ghenjei alive.)

Of course, neither Nynaeve nor Lan know of the existence of Moiraine's Letter to Thom. Nobody ever inform either of these two, of it's contents either.


Nynaeve and Lan both will enter the Tower of Ghenjei and I suspect cause grave harm. Being the Fools, both of them are.... The thing is in a Dream World, "belief" and "picturing" are destiny. One can alter "Time", "Place" and even "Outcomes" in a Dream World. Even the Tower of Gheneji has a Dream World embedded within it. Nynaeve will use it to her advantage to fix what she has broken.
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  #48  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:19 AM
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Sometimes I sympathize with people who compare me to Felix. Because if I'm wrong about Rand's death, then my ideas are surely a lot of crazy conspiracy theories. But at least my posts make sense!
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  #49  
Old 10-10-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Nynaeve and Lan both will enter the Tower of Ghenjei and I suspect cause grave harm. Being the Fools, both of them are.... The thing is in a Dream World, "belief" and "picturing" are destiny. One can alter "Time", "Place" and even "Outcomes" in a Dream World. Even the Tower of Gheneji has a Dream World embedded within it. Nynaeve will use it to her advantage to fix what she has broken.
What is this garbage? Are you even trying anymore? This is so pathetic, you're supposed to be funny, not.. this..
  #50  
Old 10-10-2010, 02:09 PM
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Sometimes I sympathize with people who compare me to Felix. Because if I'm wrong about Rand's death, then my ideas are surely a lot of crazy conspiracy theories. But at least my posts make sense!
You both tend to get tunnel vision over your latest theories and try to make every little thing fit into them instead of using details that don't necessarily fit to come up with new, different theories. Other than that I wouldn't say there's much similarity.
  #51  
Old 10-10-2010, 02:30 PM
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Sometimes I sympathize with people who compare me to Felix. Because if I'm wrong about Rand's death, then my ideas are surely a lot of crazy conspiracy theories. But at least my posts make sense!
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You both tend to get tunnel vision over your latest theories and try to make every little thing fit into them instead of using details that don't necessarily fit to come up with new, different theories. Other than that I wouldn't say there's much similarity.
I agree with nameless on this issue. While you may very well be right about Rand, if you are not, or if his death is not as interconnected as you think, you leave yourself very little margin of error regarding other matters or alternatively, you disregard other plausible scenarios in order to force fit whatever you can.

Then again, if I was pretty confident about something, tunnel vision may not be so bad a thing, because if you're focusing on the right target it would seem to help more than detract.
  #52  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:11 PM
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I agree with nameless on this issue. While you may very well be right about Rand, if you are not, or if his death is not as interconnected as you think, you leave yourself very little margin of error regarding other matters or alternatively, you disregard other plausible scenarios in order to force fit whatever you can.
Examples?
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  #53  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Examples?
Too many to list. I'm speaking only in the sense that everyone has to be in Caemlyn at a certain time in order for everything to come off. Anything that could in any way potentially detract from that would have to be either dismissed or worked out in a way that could not derail the theory.

And by the way, not that there is anything wrong with this approach. I don't personally have any specific theory I feel so strongly about that I center most of my speculation around it and build it up with any new facts I gather. I might do the same if I did.

I'm almost finished with my re-read (only the second time I'm reading TGS) and I thought by now that I'd have some such theory but really, I still have difficulty moving on from the general.

I've long thought Rand would die before the Last Battle, almost from the time it became clear that the initial wound of his wouldn't heal. This was only reinforced, from my perspective, with the wound caused by Fain, the arm he had blown off by Semirhage and the connection he formed with Moridin. But I've never formulated a concrete theory in my mind over how this would come about, although, I have always assumed Alivia would kill him. Your theory about it involving Gawyn has peaked my interest and is making me reconsider that position but not the extent where I can say I have a cogent formulation about what will happen.
  #54  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:42 PM
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Too many to list. I'm speaking only in the sense that everyone has to be in Caemlyn at a certain time in order for everything to come off. Anything that could in any way potentially detract from that would have to be either dismissed or worked out in a way that could not derail the theory.
That's pretty much what I was thinking of. You took the "Battle of Caemlyn" theory and the "Gawyn will kill Rand" theory and combined them into one all-encompassing "Gawyn will kill Rand at the Battle of Caemlyn" theory when it probably would have been simpler to keep them separate. Like a_c says, there's nothing inherently wrong with the "all or nothing" approach. It's just something that you and Felix both do, and you were comparing yourself to Felix, so I brought it up.
  #55  
Old 10-10-2010, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by alleluia_cone View Post
Too many to list.
Convenient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cone
I'm speaking only in the sense that everyone has to be in Caemlyn at a certain time in order for everything to come off. Anything that could in any way potentially detract from that would have to be either dismissed or worked out in a way that could not derail the theory.
This isn't precisely necessary to the theory. We know from Brandon and now Jason that all the main plotlines are going to come together in one place, and it's just much easier to see everyone convening in Caemlyn than in Tar Valon, even though we know Rand is going there. I don't offhandedly dismiss Tar Valon, but Egwene's dream shows Rand confronting her and some other women. Gawyn doesn't seem to be there. Alivia doesn't seem to be there. Perrin doesn't seem to have any reason to go there. It could happen, but Caemlyn seems more likely, without even considering Arthurian legend or my theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cone
I've long thought Rand would die before the Last Battle
I have too. Before TGS, I assumed he'd stay dead and finish the job when the Horn was called, but TGS convinced me he would survive the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cone
I have always assumed Alivia would kill him.
I have always had a problem with it because this is what Min assumes, and Rand has to correct her on what she actually said, which was that she was going to help him die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cone
Your theory about it involving Gawyn has peaked my interest
Piqued.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cone
and is making me reconsider that position but not the extent where I can say I have a cogent formulation about what will happen.
I don't think I have a cogent formulation at all. It has been obvious to me from the beginning that I won't get every detail right. I just believe I've got the gist right, because of the massive amounts of evidence. You seem to think that anyone could make a theory with equal amounts of massive evidence, but I don't think that's the case.

The gist of the theory is essentially this: Rand needs to die before the Last Battle, and he will need various Lightfriends to help him. Alivia is one of them, but befitting her minor character and the themes associated with it, she'll play a relatively minor role.

Most strongly associated with Arthur's death are Gawain, Mordred, and Morgan le Fay. It just so happens that I can make a good argument for Gawyn and Moiraine filling those roles. I have a scenario worked out that could have easily helped to inspire the Arthur legends, the Jesus story, the Perun myths, some more Odin stuff (aside from the eye), and who knows what else. I am hardly an expert. I don't expect to have every detail right, but at least I have ideas that resonate with the overarching themes of the series. I see very little attempt to do the same with other ideas. Except Felix. The guy tries, I will give him that. But his understanding of the English language is limited, and he's crazy to boot.
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  #56  
Old 10-10-2010, 05:40 PM
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That's pretty much what I was thinking of. You took the "Battle of Caemlyn" theory and the "Gawyn will kill Rand" theory and combined them into one all-encompassing "Gawyn will kill Rand at the Battle of Caemlyn" theory when it probably would have been simpler to keep them separate.
It doesn't make sense at all to keep them separate, really. We know from Brandon that the climax of the book will involve all of the plotlines coming together at one place, including Rand and Egwene. There is good reason for Gawyn to go to Caemlyn, and tons of stuff pointing to it, stuff that's been developing since book one.

But it was pretty much obvious to most people before my theory that the plotlines seemed to be converging on Caemlyn. It would be silly for me to not take the setting into account for the Gawyn theory.
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Old 10-10-2010, 06:04 PM
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@Terez

I'm not criticizing your theory; you may very well be right. I was just seconding nameless' comment that both you and Felix have an all or nothing approach. Which is admirable, in its own way, because this leaves both of you with so little leeway one way or another.

If it turns out that Lanfear is in fact Cyndane or that we will never see Valan Luca again, then much of what Felix argues will be rendered irrelevant.

Likewise, if for whatever reason a whole host of characters don't end up in Caemlyn at the end of the book, or Rand doesn't die, or Gawyn has nothing to do with it, then a lot of your theorizing will be for not.

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Convenient.
It really isn't necessary for me to list them all; they all derive from theories in any way opposing your own because yours is so specific, so there will be a multitude of theories you'd have to dismiss just based on that. That's what I meant.


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This isn't precisely necessary to the theory. We know from Brandon and now Jason that all the main plotlines are going to come together in one place, and it's just much easier to see everyone convening in Caemlyn than in Tar Valon, even though we know Rand is going there. I don't offhandedly dismiss Tar Valon, but Egwene's dream shows Rand confronting her and some other women. Gawyn doesn't seem to be there. Alivia doesn't seem to be there. Perrin doesn't seem to have any reason to go there. It could happen, but Caemlyn seems more likely, without even considering Arthurian legend or my theory.
I'm in the Caemlyn camp myself; Rand already alluded to the fact that the Seanchan would conquer Caemlyn before Tar Valon and on multiple occasions.

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I have too. Before TGS, I assumed he'd stay dead and finish the job when the Horn was called, but TGS convinced me he would survive the series.
I never liked the Horn theory although it was always plausible. It just seemed to cheapen everything that he could be recalled so simply and bestowed way too much importance on the Horn. I've already read LOR is what I'm saying.

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For future reference, I'm terrible with "women/woman" for reasons I can never explain.

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I don't think I have a cogent formulation at all. It has been obvious to me from the beginning that I won't get every detail right. I just believe I've got the gist right, because of the massive amounts of evidence. You seem to think that anyone could make a theory with equal amounts of massive evidence, but I don't think that's the case.

The gist of the theory is essentially this: Rand needs to die before the Last Battle, and he will need various Lightfriends to help him. Alivia is one of them, but befitting her minor character and the themes associated with it, she'll play a relatively minor role.

Most strongly associated with Arthur's death are Gawain, Mordred, and Morgan le Fay. It just so happens that I can make a good argument for Gawyn and Moiraine filling those roles. I have a scenario worked out that could have easily helped to inspire the Arthur legends, the Jesus story, the Perun myths, some more Odin stuff (aside from the eye), and who knows what else. I am hardly an expert. I don't expect to have every detail right, but at least I have ideas that resonate with the overarching themes of the series. I see very little attempt to do the same with other ideas. Except Felix. The guy tries, I will give him that. But his understanding of the English language is limited, and he's crazy to boot.
I think you may be touching on something really crucial here in light of Jason's review. Could it be that all the Lightfriend participants you mention above innocently contribute to Rand's death without intentionally meaning to participate (with the exception of Gawyn and Moiraine, presumably)?

I don't know if it will be Mat's medallion, but something of the sort might end up triggering a rapid series of events leading to Rand's death. The so-called "Butterfly Effect."

My one issue is how this is linked to the infamous thing we missed from books 4-6, because you'd think that this issue would encompass that, or do you think that the thing we missed will touch upon something having to do with confronting the DO?
  #58  
Old 10-10-2010, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by alleluia_cone View Post
I think you may be touching on something really crucial here in light of Jason's review. Could it be that all the Lightfriend participants you mention above innocently contribute to Rand's death without intentionally meaning to participate (with the exception of Gawyn and Moiraine, presumably)?
Yeah, that is what I have been getting at all along, especially with Alivia. She's going to 'help' not because she makes some conscious choice, but because she is only one of many to contribute to Rand's death.

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Originally Posted by cone
I don't know if it will be Mat's medallion, but something of the sort might end up triggering a rapid series of events leading to Rand's death. The so-called "Butterfly Effect."
That's the thing. It could be 'something of the sort', but the medallion has significance on several different levels. It's not just a random idea. Also, I listed several ideas on the noble intentions above; a lot of them go back to Morgase.

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My one issue is how this is linked to the infamous thing we missed from books 4-6, because you'd think that this issue would encompass that, or do you think that the thing we missed will touch upon something having to do with confronting the DO?
Your one issue? Really? I honestly don't care much about the infamous thing. I do think my theory is something we should have been talking about for a long time, but I have a lot of ideas on what the infamous thing could be. There's not a lot to go on.
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  #59  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:00 PM
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Your one issue? Really? I honestly don't care much about the infamous thing. I do think my theory is something we should have been talking about for a long time, but I have a lot of ideas on what the infamous thing could be. There's not a lot to go on.
Well, in regard to the infamous thing, what makes it stick out in my mind is that we are told it will play a very crucial role in what's left of the series, and frankly, there isn't that much of it left. So I'd think it would either relate to reviving Rand or in defeating the DO.
  #60  
Old 10-10-2010, 07:10 PM
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Okay.
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